My research on urban culture

[CPSURaf]

Originally posted by urban19

And jazz being street/urban culture? that's what makes u old. jazz is for sophisticated, poetic, and preppy kids. it used to be urban back in the 50s

If it wasn't for jazz, there wouldn't be hip hop you moron. Take a music appreciation course or 2.

C'mon now, I understand your frustration, but let's educate the young man and limit the insults, cool? - Mastiff

[urban19]

Originally posted by CJC

From today's SF Chronicle on street food:

http://sfgate.info/cgi-bin/article.c...type=printable

One of my favorite street foods is bacon-wrapped hot dog on a stick smothered in various sauces. The best ones that I've had are outside the LA Coliseum at USC home football games, though you can find some tasty ones in the Fruitvale area of Oakland and downtown San Mateo, oddly enough. Some of the best tacos that I've ever had are from the El Tonayense taco trucks in the Mission District of San Francisco, followed closely by the Taco! taco trucks in east San Jose. I love street food, unfortunately we don't have enough of it in the US due to excessive regulations. A lot of the great foods of the world originated "in the streets."

that's interesting. i didnt know that. thanks for letting me know about the street culture food.

Originally posted by CPSURaf

If it wasn't for jazz, there wouldn't be hip hop you moron. Take a music appreciation course or 2.

I did say that jazz used to be urban/street culture music. So i dont know what you're getting mad about. Im just saying now-a-days that urban teens dont listen to jazz and those other group of kids do.

Originally posted by Michele Zone

I don't think so. According to your first post:


As I already noted, about 40% of people in Solano County commute to jobs in other counties. Vallejo is larger than Fairfield and Travis Air Base is the single largest employer in the county. So I have difficulty believing that downtown Fairfield is where the majority of the labor market works.

There is no airport in Fairfield. There's a small airport in Vacaville and there's Travis Air Base.
There is no real university in all of Solano County, though it has a huge community college (11000 students last I checked).

As I understand it, a 75ft tall building would be about 5 or 6 stories. Unless Fairfield has had astronomical growth in the 3 1/2 years since I moved away, I doubt it qualifies. Most downtown buildings were 1 or 2 stories when I lived there and I think occasionally 3 stories. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any 5 story tall buildings in Fairfield. It was pretty suburban feel, though dense enough to have better bus service than I think most American cities of similar size have. It benefited from the general density of the SF Bay area and had access to relatively "big city" type amenities to some degree. I liked living there. But I have difficulty thinking of it as an urban core.

So perhaps Vacaville or Vallejo have urban cores? Fairfield has a Costco and a mall, and usually where those are there are urban cores. And being 40% of the county commutes, means there is still a majority living in the county. So there must be an urban core of some type present within solano county. San Rafael has a Costco and a mall, and a big tourist market. San Rafael also has an airport. And you say Vacaville has an airport for the county. So this leads me to believe that there are urban cores present. Also, the Travis Air Base is in Fairfield according to wikipedia. also, i see that vallejo has a higher population density than fairfield. and vallejo has cal-state martime academy which is a special csu university. also, vallejo has a six flags amusement park. so there seems to be alot in the county.

[Seabishop]

Hip-hop . . . is that that new style of dancing music like KC and the Sunshine Band and Donna Summer?

[Planit]

I have resisted posting here, but now here I go.

After reading through this thread, it seems as though there is a difference in definition of "urban culture" - we as planners see "urban" as built environment, what I'm reading here by u19 is more of the "street culture" which is based on gathering of groups of people (wear certain clothes & listen to certain music) with certain places to go (certain stores, etc.). u19 uses the term "urban" and "street" as interchanging descriptions.

In the little burg next to me, the "street" culture is dominated by high-schoolers in pick-ups, listening to country music, wearing Carhardt clothing, and use a different lingo - and they have a "mall," a county airport, etc.

[mike gurnee]

I am still resisting a response.

[Duke Of Dystopia]

Hey Urban 19.

You noted "....Also, city boys and city girls hang out at malls, downtowns, lifestyle centers, or outlet malls. They also go bowling, see movies, and hang in other places commonly found in centers of cities. The popular music for the urban culture is rap and latino, hispanic, and black hip-hop. They use street lingo, and lingo used by rappers. Even white boys use the rapper lingo, but not every city person uses the street lingo. There is no food or arts that define street culture. Unless you mean tagging.

And jazz being street/urban culture? that's what makes u old. jazz is for sophisticated, poetic, and preppy kids. it used to be urban back in the 50s".

Just remember, what you are calling "urban culture" is by no means the only culture out there in the urban areas that youth take part in.

Additionally, the above mentioned places youth hang out at in are because of a default position. America does not like ANY of its teenagers or young adults. For instance, you never mention dry clubs for youth under the drinking age. If they existed, you would find a great variety of "urban culture" venues that cater to the urban youth like emo, punk, and goth as well as hip-hop centric street culture. These places don't exist because more than 4 white teenagers and 3 teenagers of any other ethnic make up make adults in our country nervous. No middle aged American adult wants a small pack let alone 100 to 300 teens in one spot (stupid old people).

Mostly just my own theory!

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by Duke Of Dystopia

Hey Urban 19.

These places don't exist because more than 4 white teenagers and 3 teenagers of any other ethnic make up make adults in our country nervous. No middle aged American adult wants a small pack let alone 100 to 300 teens in one spot (stupid old people).

Mostly just my own theory!

Even the dogs in my predominantly white, middle-class "suburb" inside the city limits neighborhood don't like teenagers wandering around the streets in groups. Those pups know those hooligans are up to no good.

[wahday]

I just wanted to give some credit to urban19 for actually reading, listening and reflecting on our comments. We all piled on pretty hard and its easy to be defensive in this environment. I can see that he/she is really trying to develop and refine the line of inquiry. In particular, the reaction to the comments about racial insensitivity were well received. Thumbs up.

I did want to respond to the comment that

There is no food or arts that define street culture.

and ask that we think about that one a little more in-depth. I warn you that I have a background in planning, anthropology and...yes, this one is actually true...folklore, so I'm zoned in on this topic in particular (especially the intersection of social identity and creative expression). I also work as a community planner at an art center, so I have a special interest in identifying and supporting "creative expression" (instead of just "art"). I see it everywhere and think it is an essential and basically human aspect of our behavior. We can't help it - the way we speak, the way we dress, the food we make, etc. is informed by some sense of aesthetics, creativity and expression no matter where in the world you go.

Is there no graffiti to speak of (I don't mean tagging, but actual art)? Murals? Southern CA has a great reputation for public murals and many programs around the country create these in concert with youth. Here is a website indexing murals in East LA (LA is often called the "mural capital of the nation" and much of it grows out of an older Mexican tradition): http://www.lamurals.org/MuralAreaInd...MuralsELA.html

Are people listening to music on the street? Even if they are not making the music themselves, its still art and is an expression of social and cultural identity. If so, is it all hip hop? No Tejano/norteño music? Here in Albuquerque, that is very popular among even the teens. I also read an interesting article a few years ago reviewing a film about how Morrisey (of the Smiths fame) is actually very popular among young Latinos because of the themes of alienation he expresses. They even commented on people with "Morrisey" across their back windows in gothic letters. The filmmaker's name is William E. Jones and the film was called "Is It Really So Strange?" It was made in 2006.

Is it Really So Strange? examines the enormous popularity of the 80s Manchester pop band the Smiths (and its massively charismatic and mysterious lead singer, Morrissey) with young Hispanic and Latino kids in East Los Angeles. It sounds incredibly niche but director William Jones transcends the "hey, look at my t-shirt collection" consumerist bent that stains fandom to show how these kids have used the lyrics and persona of Morrissey to carve out an identity for themselves in a place that nearly condemns all of their religious, cultural, sexual and personal expressions.

And speaking of cars, what about lowriders? They're hugely popular here and the entire enterprise is one big, undulating and evolving art project in my mind - from the mechanics to the paint job. The phenomenon is claimed to have begun in the US in LA. Here is a link to a site called "Brown Pride" that has a ton of info on the current car scene (including car show listings) in Los Angeles: http://www.brownpride.com/lowriders/default.asp

Clothing and the fashion choices people make are also forms of "creative expression" even if they did not make them. And it just goes on from there. As for food, the teens may not be making food themselves, but what they choose to eat says something about the identity they claim, or are trying to claim.

And what are young people actually doing on the street? Are any of them skaters? Bikers? Are they just sitting around? There must be some social activities people are engaging in and I suspect there is some aspect of creativity involved, whether hidden or not.

The anthropologist in me says - do some fieldwork, spend some time observing and interacting if this is the kind of stuff you really want to investigate in detail.

[Duke Of Dystopia]

Originally posted by Linda_D

Even the dogs in my predominantly white, middle-class "suburb" inside the city limits neighborhood don't like teenagers wandering around the streets in groups. Those pups know those hooligans are up to no good.

EXACTLY!

Then we wonder why the youth feel they need to rebel.

[imaplanner]

Originally posted by CJC

How in the world are Marin and Solano Counties assumed to have "urban cores," but Yolo County doesn't? Eureka shares an urban core with San Francisco - more than 200 miles away through redwood forests?

.

To a certain extent Eureka actually does utilize San Fransisco for its urban amenities (I lived in Eureka for years) even though its 200 plus miles away.

[urban19]

Originally posted by Duke Of Dystopia

Hey Urban 19.

You noted "....Also, city boys and city girls hang out at malls, downtowns, lifestyle centers, or outlet malls. They also go bowling, see movies, and hang in other places commonly found in centers of cities. The popular music for the urban culture is rap and latino, hispanic, and black hip-hop. They use street lingo, and lingo used by rappers. Even white boys use the rapper lingo, but not every city person uses the street lingo. There is no food or arts that define street culture. Unless you mean tagging.

And jazz being street/urban culture? that's what makes u old. jazz is for sophisticated, poetic, and preppy kids. it used to be urban back in the 50s".

Just remember, what you are calling "urban culture" is by no means the only culture out there in the urban areas that youth take part in.

Additionally, the above mentioned places youth hang out at in are because of a default position. America does not like ANY of its teenagers or young adults. For instance, you never mention dry clubs for youth under the drinking age. If they existed, you would find a great variety of "urban culture" venues that cater to the urban youth like emo, punk, and goth as well as hip-hop centric street culture. These places don't exist because more than 4 white teenagers and 3 teenagers of any other ethnic make up make adults in our country nervous. No middle aged American adult wants a small pack let alone 100 to 300 teens in one spot (stupid old people).

Mostly just my own theory!

City boys and city girls hang at "malls, downtowns, outlet malls, lifestyle centers, or some other big shopping center, go bowling, see movies, and usually like going to eat at themed or teen resturaunts" The combination of a teenager liking to do 3-4 of those activities makes them a city boy or a girl. Some other teen groups like doing some of those other activities, but not all four. Mall rats, which is a form of emo, like hanging in the malls all the time. Most teens like going to the movies and bowling. And there other groups of teens known to like to hang at resturaunts. For example I know preps, rich kids, and other similar will hang at nice or popular teen resturaunts.

Originally posted by Planit

I have resisted posting here, but now here I go.

After reading through this thread, it seems as though there is a difference in definition of "urban culture" - we as planners see "urban" as built environment, what I'm reading here by u19 is more of the "street culture" which is based on gathering of groups of people (wear certain clothes & listen to certain music) with certain places to go (certain stores, etc.). u19 uses the term "urban" and "street" as interchanging descriptions.

In the little burg next to me, the "street" culture is dominated by high-schoolers in pick-ups, listening to country music, wearing Carhardt clothing, and use a different lingo - and they have a "mall," a county airport, etc.

Don't get my urban culture mixed up with michigan, and mid-west small town hick life mixed with my urban culture. There are small counties with county airports, malls for literally "one stop shopping".

Originally posted by wahday

I just wanted to give some credit to urban19 for actually reading, listening and reflecting on our comments. We all piled on pretty hard and its easy to be defensive in this environment. I can see that he/she is really trying to develop and refine the line of inquiry. In particular, the reaction to the comments about racial insensitivity were well received. Thumbs up.

I did want to respond to the comment that



and ask that we think about that one a little more in-depth. I warn you that I have a background in planning, anthropology and...yes, this one is actually true...folklore, so I'm zoned in on this topic in particular (especially the intersection of social identity and creative expression). I also work as a community planner at an art center, so I have a special interest in identifying and supporting "creative expression" (instead of just "art"). I see it everywhere and think it is an essential and basically human aspect of our behavior. We can't help it - the way we speak, the way we dress, the food we make, etc. is informed by some sense of aesthetics, creativity and expression no matter where in the world you go.

Is there no graffiti to speak of (I don't mean tagging, but actual art)? Murals? Southern CA has a great reputation for public murals and many programs around the country create these in concert with youth. Here is a website indexing murals in East LA (LA is often called the "mural capital of the nation" and much of it grows out of an older Mexican tradition): http://www.lamurals.org/MuralAreaInd...MuralsELA.html

Are people listening to music on the street? Even if they are not making the music themselves, its still art and is an expression of social and cultural identity. If so, is it all hip hop? No Tejano/norteño music? Here in Albuquerque, that is very popular among even the teens. I also read an interesting article a few years ago reviewing a film about how Morrisey (of the Smiths fame) is actually very popular among young Latinos because of the themes of alienation he expresses. They even commented on people with "Morrisey" across their back windows in gothic letters. The filmmaker's name is William E. Jones and the film was called "Is It Really So Strange?" It was made in 2006.



And speaking of cars, what about lowriders? They're hugely popular here and the entire enterprise is one big, undulating and evolving art project in my mind - from the mechanics to the paint job. The phenomenon is claimed to have begun in the US in LA. Here is a link to a site called "Brown Pride" that has a ton of info on the current car scene (including car show listings) in Los Angeles: http://www.brownpride.com/lowriders/default.asp

Clothing and the fashion choices people make are also forms of "creative expression" even if they did not make them. And it just goes on from there. As for food, the teens may not be making food themselves, but what they choose to eat says something about the identity they claim, or are trying to claim.

And what are young people actually doing on the street? Are any of them skaters? Bikers? Are they just sitting around? There must be some social activities people are engaging in and I suspect there is some aspect of creativity involved, whether hidden or not.

The anthropologist in me says - do some fieldwork, spend some time observing and interacting if this is the kind of stuff you really want to investigate in detail.

I totally agree with you.

[kalimotxo]

Originally posted by urban19

Don't get my urban culture mixed up with michigan, and mid-west small town hick life mixed with my urban culture. There are small counties with county airports, malls for literally "one stop shopping".

Just curious: what do you mean by your urban culture? Are you suggesting that your understanding of urban culture, based on an incredibly narrow view of a few "urban cores" you've identified in California, is the only true understanding of street culture?

Why don't you take a trip to Boston or some other northeastern city, where there is a vibrant scene of working class street folks who have their own identity and music, drawn from a rich history of folk music, punk music, and immigrant culture - predominately Irish. You may have heard bands like the Dropkick Murphys or the Ducky Boys - good examples of the type of music they make.

Or what about Richmond, VA, Brooklyn, Philly or Portland, where some of the most vibrant "street culture" consists of young, predominately white students, artists, musicians, and intellectuals. They listen to diverse, independent music, drink lots of PBR, and many spend their free-time creating art or building crazy bicycles. Ever heard of Critical Mass, bike polo, or tall-bike jousting? It may seem crazy and stupid to you, but this is a culture that has uniquely developed in very urban areas.

Any city that has a "Little Italy" or a "Chinatown" or some other specific cultural district is likely to have numerous street cultures that fall well outside your narrow description. And yes, there are some cities - Roanoke, VA, Nashville, TN, and Lexington, KY come to mind - where you would find folks that you would probably assume were "small town hicks" based on their style of dress and music preferences. However, they are very much "city people" and have a "street culture" all their own.

You demonstrate a painfully provincial view of the world which is complicated by the fact that you assume that you have it all figured out, despite the fact that you're just out of high school. If you want to be successful in planning or anything else you'd best step outside yourself for a bit and start questioning your own assumptions. Without a lot more intellectual flexibility, you will find the world after high school to be a very scary and disappointing place.

Before you go calling me old, I'm 24. And I don't think I'll ever have things satisfactorily figured out.

[Gedunker]

Originally posted by urban19

~snip~

Don't get my urban culture mixed up with michigan, and mid-west small town hick life mixed with my urban culture. There are small counties with county airports, malls for literally "one stop shopping".

There really isn't any need to use pejoratives such as "mid-west small town hick life". The observer should strive to be neutral at all times. otherwise, the observer is nothing more than a promoter.

If a culture is limited to a small group or physical area, it's an anomaly. It's when culture spreads -- disseminates -- that culture takes hold and becomes established. The street culture Planit describes competes here with the spread of street cultures from both LA and NYC. Both have local flavors, naturally, as the culture embeds itself into the local environment.

You really ought to consider urban anthropology for a field of study.

[beach_bum]

This thread is like a train wreck...I just can't look away.

Cities exist everywhere, on the West Coast, the Mid West, the South, the Northeast...and they are all different. California is not the only place that has urban culture, nor it is the only state that has big cities. A personal experience, being from the South, is people seem to automatically assume you are from a small town when they hear a Southern accent and that you are not cultured or city-smart. The truth is I grew up in a large city and minus graduate school, I never lived in a place with under a million people. But I digress...

Teenagers are not the only carriers of city/urban culture, sure they tend to follow the trends more closely than other groups, but it doesn't mean other groups dont contribute culturally to a place. Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong and the OP's intent is to look at specifically how teenager's choices of clothing brands and music contributes to urban culture, as one delves deeper into the academic world of college and perhaps graduate school, you will learn how to do such research in a more meaningful way. With a little work and shaping, this sounds like this is a great thesis idea eventually. Urban planning is mainly about the form and function of cities/the built environment....as another poster said it sounds like anthropology is for you...

[urban19]

Originally posted by beach_bum

This thread is like a train wreck...I just can't look away.

Cities exist everywhere, on the West Coast, the Mid West, the South, the Northeast...and they are all different. California is not the only place that has urban culture, nor it is the only state that has big cities. A personal experience, being from the South, is people seem to automatically assume you are from a small town when they hear a Southern accent and that you are not cultured or city-smart. The truth is I grew up in a large city and minus graduate school, I never lived in a place with under a million people. But I digress...

Teenagers are not the only carriers of city/urban culture, sure they tend to follow the trends more closely than other groups, but it doesn't mean other groups dont contribute culturally to a place. Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong and the OP's intent is to look at specifically how teenager's choices of clothing brands and music contributes to urban culture, as one delves deeper into the academic world of college and perhaps graduate school, you will learn how to do such research in a more meaningful way. With a little work and shaping, this sounds like this is a great thesis idea eventually. Urban planning is mainly about the form and function of cities/the built environment....as another poster said it sounds like anthropology is for you...

First, I don't care how you sugar coat it. Listening to country music (music for rural areas), driving in pick-up trucks, and hanging out at small shopping malls that are in areas that have malls because of extreme weather conditions is hick, aggie, small town teenager life. I should know because Im from a small town. You can not call that culture "urban". If you want to say it's the street culture in small towns because the streets here are aligned with nature and urban sprawl, then sure thats fine. but dont say that street culture is the same as urban culture.

SECOND, don't tell me what field of study I should be in. You are making an assumption off one thread of mine out of many. You don't know me in person and don't know any of my real interests.

[Tranplanner]

I'm beginning to see the wisdom behind the saying "youth is wasted on the young"

[Duke Of Dystopia]

Originally posted by urban19

City boys and city girls hang at "malls, downtowns, outlet malls, lifestyle centers, or some other big shopping center, go bowling, see movies, and usually like going to eat at themed or teen resturaunts" The combination of a teenager liking to do 3-4 of those activities makes them a city boy or a girl. Some other teen groups like doing some of those other activities, but not all four. Mall rats, which is a form of emo, like hanging in the malls all the time. Most teens like going to the movies and bowling. And there other groups of teens known to like to hang at resturaunts. For example I know preps, rich kids, and other similar will hang at nice or popular teen resturaunts.
....

You seem to have a very small view of what any kind of "culture" is and how people circulate within that culture. You seem to be stating that if a person in your concept of "street culture" needs to do ALL of your above listed activities and if they do not, then they are not a member of the "street culture". When would a person have time to work with all that time spent "hanging out" let alone how to pay for it, among other issues?

I assure you, there are many types of cultures that exist to which you are ignorant of their existence. Many of them are urban and young. Were trying to be patient, but most of us are way past being 18 or 19. If you believe that anyone over 20 forgets what it is like to be younger, you need to reappraise your point of view.

A culture is a set of linkages. We are trying to guide you in how to tighten up the focus for a question which you asked. If you did not want peer review, why did you ask? It is obvious we have given you many ways to describe and quantify those cultural linkages. Learn to take some criticism and you will go far.

Originally posted by urban19

SECOND, don't tell me what field of study I should be in. You are making an assumption off one thread of mine out of many. You don't know me in person and don't know any of my real interests.

Defensiveness! .....sniffs raw meat and blood in the water..

[kalimotxo]

Originally posted by urban19

First, I don't care how you sugar coat it. Listening to country music (music for rural areas), driving in pick-up trucks, and hanging out at small shopping malls that are in areas that have malls because of extreme weather conditions is hick, aggie, small town teenager life.

Sorry if this is callous, but your stubbornness will not get you anywhere. You come here, are offered constructive criticism by folks who have been around a lot more and a lot longer than you have, and you refute everything that's said.

Guess what bro: there are folks in every big city in the country that listen to country music and I bet they'd be more than a little surprised by your theory that they aren't supposed to. I grew up on a small farm outside of a town of about 700 people. My first cassette tape was given to me at age 7 by my very white older sister: Public Enemy's Fear of a Black Planet. I never listen to country music, and I've only rarely driven my dad's pickup truck. I'm sorry to disrupt your compartmentalized view of the world, but the world just ain't that simple.

Why even go to college? Clearly you've got it all figured out already.

Since this thread has completely train wrecked and many are losing their composure and getting mean. I close this thread with impunity - mendelman