Pearl Harbor Day (and other similar remembrances)

[Maister]

I was going to title the thread 'Happy Pearl Harbor Day', but then happiness is not something usually associated with that name... I suppose wishing one a solemn Pearl Harbor Day is more in order.

Along similar a similar vein, September 11th was recently declared 'Patriot's Day'. I'm a little surprised we didn't end up with a 'Remember the Maine Day', given the jingoistic/imperialistic tenor of those times. I'm wondering how many other countries have days commemorating what they view as Great Betrayals? The Brits have 'Guy Fawkes Night', celebrating the foiling of an attempt in the 17th century to assassinate King James I. At the time (and for many years following) the holiday was declared, the intent was to foment anti-Catholic sentiment throughout the populace. Over time, however, it's become a watered down entertainment event on par with Halloween. Do you suppose it likely decades/centuries from today Pearl Harbor day (damn those Germans!) or Patriot's Day will undergo a similar fate as old enmities become forgotten and die out and replaced by new understandings and friendships?

[imaplanner]

Dude. I saw this thread and I thought "What the heck is Maister talking about, Pearl Harbor day is in December". Then it hit me. Doh! I think I killed too many brain cells last night.

[Hink]

I think we have recently found ways to memorialize everything. I am not saying that these days are not important to remember, but they were one day. I imagine that many of these days will be put into the Memorial Day/ Veteran's Day bag in the future.

Memorial Day was created to remember those who we have lost. Veteran's Day was created to remember the servicemen who fought in war. Most important events are encompassed by these two days.

[Gedunker]

I think we have recently found ways to memorialize everything. I am not saying that these days are not important to remember, but they were one day. I imagine that many of these days will be put into the Memorial Day/ Veteran's Day bag in the future.

This date, December 7, 1941, won't live in infamy?

Memorial Day was created to remember those who we have lost. Veteran's Day was created to remember the servicemen who fought in war. Most important events are encompassed by these two days.

Veteran's Day was originally Armistice Day, to remember those that served, and those that died, in the Great War. Eisenhower converted it to Veteran's Day. Such a move would not have been tolerated in The Commonwealth Countries, UK or France, in my opinion, where the carnage was infinitely worse than here.

[illinoisplanner]

I don't think Pearl Harbor Day or Patriot Day will go away anytime soon. Yes, they were one day, but they represent something far greater: Major surprise attacks on American soil (one mostly on our military, the other mostly on our civilians), rare occurrences that otherwise were unprecedented throughout most of the 19th, 20th, and so far, 21st Century. Pearl Harbor Day is also kind of a lasting tribute to U.S. involvement in World War II as a whole (especially on the Pacific Front), while Patriot Day (9/11) symbolizes the start of the War on Terror.

[Hink]

This date, December 7, 1941, won't live in infamy?

You are correct that date will. So will 9/11/2001. I am not trying to downplay their significance. What I am saying is that in time the remembrance of what they were and who they are remembering, will be merged.

[Random Traffic Guy]

I thought April 19 was Patriots Day? Isn't it a state holiday in some parts of New England? It certainly has a better claim on being a happy event, or at least "upward looking rememberance". I try to fly a historical flag on that occasion, as I do for the local rememberances of Texas Independence Day (March 2, or Feb 23-Mar 6 for the Alamo), San Jacinto Day (April 21), and Battle of Gonzales (October 2).

September 11 will recede in the same way, December 7 is almost there, to being strictly a historical footnote, remembered by those with close personal ties and by those of a historical mindset. Heck, the big holidays are the same way, I doubt 1 in 3 people on the lake on Memorial Day would be able to identify the reason for the holiday other than being the long weekend start of summer. Independence Day is largely morphing into "Fourth of July" rather than referring to the nation's founding.

[ofos]

I thought April 19 was Patriots Day? Isn't it a state holiday in some parts of New England? It certainly has a better claim on being a happy event, or at least "upward looking rememberance". I try to fly a historical flag on that occasion, as I do for the local rememberances of Texas Independence Day (March 2, or Feb 23-Mar 6 for the Alamo), San Jacinto Day (April 21), and Battle of Gonzales (October 2).

September 11 will recede in the same way, December 7 is almost there, to being strictly a historical footnote, remembered by those with close personal ties and by those of a historical mindset. Heck, the big holidays are the same way, I doubt 1 in 3 people on the lake on Memorial Day would be able to identify the reason for the holiday other than being the long weekend start of summer. Independence Day is largely morphing into "Fourth of July" rather than referring to the nation's founding.

Remember Goliad?

[Random Traffic Guy]

Remember Goliad?

Only victories or heroic defeats
Remember Goliad is like Pearl Harbor, "look at what those dastardly Mexicans did".


Edit: I guess you meant the original taking of Goliad? It and Bexar don't get as much press, drowned out by 1836 so only the first shots at Gonzales get mention. And Gonzales had a cool flag

[otterpop]

Why not commerorate some of our great kick-*ss moments, too

The Battle of New Orleans and the Battle of San Jacinto. Where our ragtag volunteers and regular army soldiers defeated the armies of Britain and Mexico.

Now some will tell you that the Battle of New Orleans happened after the War of 1812 was over. Not true. The treaty had been signed in Europe before the battle but news did not reach our shores nor was it ratified by Congress until after the battle. So hostilities were not over.

[ofos]

Only victories or heroic defeats
Remember Goliad is like Pearl Harbor, "look at what those dastardly Mexicans did".


Edit: I guess you meant the original taking of Goliad? It and Bexar don't get as much press, drowned out by 1836 so only the first shots at Gonzales get mention. And Gonzales had a cool flag

Actually I was putting the Goliad Massacre in the same context as Pearl Harbor. The original taking probably doesn't need a day of it's own although it was significant in it's time.

[Maister]

Actually I was putting the Goliad Massacre in the same context as Pearl Harbor. The original taking probably doesn't need a day of it's own although it was significant in it's time.

Ah yes, you'd be referring to the The Battle of Goliad, followed by the Goliad Massacre, a battle fought by the Republic of Texas and Mexico. The Mexicans, led by Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, quickly routed and crushed the Texan volunteer army, and Texan Colonel James Fannin was captured and executed. The entire Texan force was killed except for twenty-eight men who feigned death and escaped. The massive number of Texan casualties and the "take-no-prisoners" attitude of the Mexican army led to Goliad to be called a "Massacre" by Texas-American forces...

ain't Google a wonderful thing? Makes us all look like geniuses. I suspect I know more arcane and obscure military history than most, but had to plaguerize that one . Now what I'm surprised we don't observe is One Stickney/Two Stickney Day. It explains why there is so much bad blood between me and BUN....

[TexanOkie]

Ah, the Battle of San Jacinto... where combat was completed in less than 20 minutes and the slaughtering of surrendered Mexican soldiers continued for an hour afterward.

[ofos]

BUMP because no one else has...

Has 9-11 replaced 12-7 in the American consciousness?

[btrage]

BUMP because no one else has...

Has 9-11 replaced 12-7 in the American consciousness?

Of course. It's more recent.

[ofos]

Of course. It's more recent.

It was more of a rhetorical question. I was putting the date on a consulting invoice when I remembered what the significance of the day was and that there had been no mention of it on the national news show I watched this a.m. Seemed sad in retrospect.

[Random Traffic Guy]

BUMP because no one else has...

Has 9-11 replaced 12-7 in the American consciousness?

I would say no, 9-11 is fading much faster. I would say they were roughly equal in notice this year. 12-7 may decline quicker now that that generation is really passing on, but it had a much higher initial signature. The lack of a satisfying response to 9-11 and the lack of a national resolve (e.g. "America is not at war. The Marine Corps is at war; America is at the mall") really limited its rememberance. As a generally successful country you don't make a big deal of your defeats which don't have a happy ending, despite how successful you may have been at the fighting.

[wahday]

Pearl Harbor Day (a Day that will Live in Infamy) has been forever ruined for me. My father's second marriage was on December 7 and his wife (no longer his wife) made up t-shirts that said "December 7th, a Day that will Live in Intimacy" and featuring a drawing of the two of them.

Shoot, Me. Now.

[Cardinal]

BUMP because no one else has...

Has 9-11 replaced 12-7 in the American consciousness?

Americans are conscious?