Lost and confused (like so many others)...advice?

[LAKings55]

Ok, let's start with the most recent. I am set to start an online MPA. I am 25, with an actual savings, and willing to move anywhere. Now let's work backwards. I graduated in 09 from Cal State Northridge with a B.A. in Planning (yay low-tier schools). I did a 6 month internship with a county planning department, and since college I've been turned down for every single entry-level planning job in the greater LA, Ventura County area (big surprise, I know) Basically, my only real work experience other than retail is a long gig with a city library department (ongoing) and a short stint before being laid off in a library closure (long, complicated story last hire first fire situation) in a higher position before heading back to the other library. I've also failed to get any other public sector job I've put in for, either failing to make it through the interviews or failing to make it past the testing phase (appraiser technician and other jobs) My question is, should I even bother with the MPA? I really regret choosing planning. In some ways, I didn't choose it, I just didn't know what to study and it seemed like a decent option at the time. I know no one has the answers. But I'm just wondering if I should attempt to get an internship with or without doing the MPA. I've been told that there are questions of legality simply letting someone off the street perform an internship. At least as a student, I can claim some form of academic credit, and possibly qualify for some of the paid internships. Does anyone have suggestions on where to look or move? I will literally live anywhere, and I can't wait to leave California. I actually have a chance to move up to Oregon, but there too carries a lot of the burdens of CA. So, move, do the online Masters in Public Administration, try to intern? Move and try to get any old job I can snag. Stay and do the program while interning? I've even looked into the military, though that too has been greatly cut. I'm just lucky to be debt free, and with a savings. However, given everything, I'm questioning whether or not to do the MPA. Total cost would be just over 20k, and since the job prospects are slim, in planning or otherwise it could very well be a waste. On the other hand though, I don't have any experience in any fields other than, retail, libraries, and planning. Anyways, a happy new year to you all, any advice would be appreciated. Areas to move to, entry-level fields or positions for MPA students/grads, etc. I'm fortunate my parents seem to enjoy my company, but I'm sure they're more than ready for their 25 year old son to move out. I apologize for the rant. I'm tired and emotionally drained from what has amounted to beating my head against a wall for 3 years trying to get something, anything in the public sector. I figured maybe an MPA would help, now I wonder if doing this will just amount to a sizable donation on my behalf to the school.

[chocolatechip]

Ok, let's start with the most recent. I am set to start an online MPA. I am 25, with an actual savings, and willing to move anywhere. Now let's work backwards. I graduated in 09 from Cal State Northridge with a B.A. in Planning (yay low-tier schools). I did a 6 month internship with a county planning department, and since college I've been turned down for every single entry-level planning job in the greater LA, Ventura County area (big surprise, I know) Basically, my only real work experience other than retail is a long gig with a city library department (ongoing) and a short stint before being laid off in a library closure (long, complicated story last hire first fire situation) in a higher position before heading back to the other library. I've also failed to get any other public sector job I've put in for, either failing to make it through the interviews or failing to make it past the testing phase (appraiser technician and other jobs) My question is, should I even bother with the MPA? I really regret choosing planning. In some ways, I didn't choose it, I just didn't know what to study and it seemed like a decent option at the time. I know no one has the answers. But I'm just wondering if I should attempt to get an internship with or without doing the MPA. I've been told that there are questions of legality simply letting someone off the street perform an internship. At least as a student, I can claim some form of academic credit, and possibly qualify for some of the paid internships. Does anyone have suggestions on where to look or move? I will literally live anywhere, and I can't wait to leave California. I actually have a chance to move up to Oregon, but there too carries a lot of the burdens of CA. So, move, do the online Masters in Public Administration, try to intern? Move and try to get any old job I can snag. Stay and do the program while interning? I've even looked into the military, though that too has been greatly cut. I'm just lucky to be debt free, and with a savings. However, given everything, I'm questioning whether or not to do the MPA. Total cost would be just over 20k, and since the job prospects are slim, in planning or otherwise it could very well be a waste. On the other hand though, I don't have any experience in any fields other than, retail, libraries, and planning. Anyways, a happy new year to you all, any advice would be appreciated. Areas to move to, entry-level fields or positions for MPA students/grads, etc. I'm fortunate my parents seem to enjoy my company, but I'm sure they're more than ready for their 25 year old son to move out. I apologize for the rant. I'm tired and emotionally drained from what has amounted to beating my head against a wall for 3 years trying to get something, anything in the public sector. I figured maybe an MPA would help, now I wonder if doing this will just amount to a sizable donation on my behalf to the school.

First, learn to use your enter button, or carriage returns as they used to call them. Now, whoever told you about legality problems of hiring off the street didn't know what they were talking about. Or they were talking about government jobs and how you have to be ranked among the highest qualified and then interview. Or you didn't hear them right.

Here's what you should do with your life: ditch the online masters degree. It's stupid. All online degrees are stupid. Would it be a good idea to diversify academically and eventually obtain a REAL MPA, MBA, etc? Sure. But there's no rush. What you need to do, is widen your job search nationally, and be willing to move anywhere to start your career. You can't find a job in southern CA because everyone and their cat is applying for the same damn jobs. Separate yourself from the pack geographically. Look in rural areas. You're young and unattached so use that to your benefit. It's the only thing you got going for you that's going to give you an edge out there.

Also, why only try for something in the public sector? A job is a job and will give you good experience whether or not its in public or private. When I went to planning school, everyone told us that you had to get a public sector job first, otherwise it would be hard to go back and get into the public sector after private work. Well, I started out in the private sector and worked for 4 years, then went to federal, and am now in county government. People are wrong. Only you live your life.

Lastly, you need to get a life. Not just a career, but a life. It's not all about work. I know you're desperate to start your career, but I'm in my thirties and only now am I in a position to say that my career is exactly on track and I'm right where I need to be. You have time to work the rest of your life. But you're only 25 once.

[Cardinal]

Getting a masters degree is a good idea. Mostly. I would tell you that people do not care much where you received it, but it does need to be a credible university. Some of the online degrees do not carry much weight, so be careful.

Getting relevant work is also critical. If that is an internship, so be it. But you can find entry level positions if you look broadly. Your best opportunities are not going to be in LA, San Diego, or other metros. Look rural. It is harder to identify these positions since they do not get advertised to the same degree. Set up Google searches, monitor each state's APA and League of Municipalities sites, etc. For example:


Community First Administrative Internship, Milwaukee (posted 12/09/12; deadline open until filled)
Community Planning Intern, Madison (posted 11/30/12; deadline open until filled)
Regional Planner, Escanaba, MI (posed 11/29/12; deadline 12/15/12)
Land Use Specialist, Columbia County, Portage (posted 11/14/12; deadline 11/30/12)
Planning Tech - Kronenwetter - Dec 17 to Jan 8
Tech/GIS Tech - New Richmond Dec 13 to Jan 8

All of these (except Escanaba) are Wisconsin jobs. Except for the internships, they are positions in mostly rural area, perhaps 1-2 hours outside of a metro area. The competition will be a lot less fierce.

[LAKings55]

The master's btw is from a Cal State. It's NASPAA accredited (as if that means anything) and students have the option of taking them in a local cohort, on-campus, or on-line cohort fashion. I chose the on-line for convenience and mobility. It is indeed the same course material, and is done in a cohort with students expected to engage in on-line meetings, using a program similar to skype. I suppose I should have clarified this. By no means is it a degree mill, though imho, nearly all colleges are. I completely agree about living your life, I just really need to find full-time work.

Again, sorry for the long rant before. I actually thought it hadn't been posted. After submitting the post, I was logged out and everything disappeared, so I figured it was gone. Checked this morning and it magically appeared. But thank you for the replies. My big problem, at least with planning listings, stems from the fact that nearly all disqualify me. Associate planner listings nearly all state "bachelor's with at least one year full-time professional experience." Obviously, internships don't count towards that. So basically, it would seem, one would have to intern or volunteer, and hope a position opens up and that they like you enough to give you an edge in getting the position. At least nowadays, especially out here in CA, regardless of your status as an intern, they must list the position publicly and interview other candidates.

[dw914er]

I posted in your other thread since the topic was a bit more focused. But I wanted to clarify a point you made; the term "Associate Planner" in California municipalities usually does not mean entry level. They are a journey level position. The cheat sheet for you is: Intern -> Junior (though this term is fairly rare) -> Assistant -> Associate -> Senior -> Principal -> Assistant Director -> Director.

And yes, municipalities have to go through a formal process if you're moving up to a different employee classification. Some elect to advertise the position as a "Promotional Opportunity," but you will still get a chance to interview.

[LAKings55]

I posted in your other thread since the topic was a bit more focused. But I wanted to clarify a point you made; the term "Associate Planner" in California municipalities usually does not mean entry level. They are a journey level position. The cheat sheet for you is: Intern -> Junior (though this term is fairly rare) -> Assistant -> Associate -> Senior -> Principal -> Assistant Director -> Director.

And yes, municipalities have to go through a formal process if you're moving up to a different employee classification. Some elect to advertise the position as a "Promotional Opportunity," but you will still get a chance to interview.

Oops, assistant was definitely what I meant

[Cismontane]

Most private firms use some variant of the following titling system: Grad Planner -> Jr Planning/Planner I -> Intermediate Planner/Planner II -> Sr Planner/Planner III -> Associate Planner -> Sr Associate/Assoc Principal -> Principal. The latter three titles equate to management. I've never heard of a public or private sector system where a senior planner is senior to an associate. In a big city like SF or NY, having the title associate at a big firm usually means you have at least a decade of experience and are making in excess of 100k.

[dw914er]

Most private firms use some variant of the following titling system: Grad Planner -> Jr Planning/Planner I -> Intermediate Planner/Planner II -> Sr Planner/Planner III -> Associate Planner -> Sr Associate/Assoc Principal -> Principal. The latter three titles equate to management. I've never heard of a public or private sector system where a senior planner is senior to an associate. In a big city like SF or NY, having the title associate at a big firm usually means you have at least a decade of experience and are making in excess of 100k.

The private sector has more variation with their organizational naming, but the cities I have either worked for or applied to had the Senior Planner listed as a senior to the Associate. It is a broad generalization though. This is APA's general job description list: http://www.planning.org/onthejob/descriptions/. The link also shows the Junior planner as a senior to the Assistant, which isn't the case for my municipality's job classification.

[Kingmak]

I really regret choosing planning. In some ways, I didn't choose it, I just didn't know what to study and it seemed like a decent option at the time.

That's not really a good start if you're looking for a planning job. Do you want the MPA to get a planning job? Get a MURP/MCRP instead, perhaps a dual with MPA or JD. If you don't want to be a planner, don't get the MPA to be a planner. Hey, I'm 25 too, just got my Masters in environmental planning, and just got my first job as a planner. Had to move from Ohio to Texas. But I'm young. If I were you, someone with a degree and no debt...first be eternally grateful for that, and then decide what it is you want to do, and go do it.

[Raf]

I really regret choosing planning. In some ways, I didn't choose it, I just didn't know what to study and it seemed like a decent option at the time.

I think it is time to step back and ask yourself what you really want a degree in. Do you want a degree to simply "get a job" or do you actually enjoy the study of planning, space making, etc. You really need to decide that first before jumping into a MPA. Without really any experience and considering you have a planning degree already in your belt, will an MPA get you where you need to go? Maybe. MPA's are great if you intend to be a public servant your entire life but the public sector right now and for the near future will not be hiring like it once was especially with fiscal austerity in the future for many agencies, both on a federal, state and local level. Again, I highly recommend asking yourself what you "really want to do" 5 or 10 years down the road and let that be a guide before throwing away thousands of dollars for an MPA that will more than likely keep you in your same square, but with a new piece of paper. Good luck.

[ColoGI]

Ok, let's start with the most recent. I am set to start an online MPA. I am 25, with an actual savings, and willing to move anywhere. Now let's work backwards. I graduated in 09 from Cal State Northridge with a B.A. in Planning (yay low-tier schools). I did a 6 month internship with a county planning department, and since college I've been turned down for every single entry-level planning job in the greater LA, Ventura County area (big surprise, I know) Basically, my only real work experience other than retail is a long gig with a city library department (ongoing) and a short stint before being laid off in a library closure (long, complicated story last hire first fire situation) in a higher position before heading back to the other library. I've also failed to get any other public sector job I've put in for, either failing to make it through the interviews or failing to make it past the testing phase (appraiser technician and other jobs) My question is, should I even bother with the MPA? I really regret choosing planning. In some ways, I didn't choose it, I just didn't know what to study and it seemed like a decent option at the time. I know no one has the answers. But I'm just wondering if I should attempt to get an internship with or without doing the MPA. I've been told that there are questions of legality simply letting someone off the street perform an internship. At least as a student, I can claim some form of academic credit, and possibly qualify for some of the paid internships. Does anyone have suggestions on where to look or move? I will literally live anywhere, and I can't wait to leave California. I actually have a chance to move up to Oregon, but there too carries a lot of the burdens of CA. So, move, do the online Masters in Public Administration, try to intern? Move and try to get any old job I can snag. Stay and do the program while interning? I've even looked into the military, though that too has been greatly cut. I'm just lucky to be debt free, and with a savings. However, given everything, I'm questioning whether or not to do the MPA. Total cost would be just over 20k, and since the job prospects are slim, in planning or otherwise it could very well be a waste. On the other hand though, I don't have any experience in any fields other than, retail, libraries, and planning. Anyways, a happy new year to you all, any advice would be appreciated. Areas to move to, entry-level fields or positions for MPA students/grads, etc. I'm fortunate my parents seem to enjoy my company, but I'm sure they're more than ready for their 25 year old son to move out. I apologize for the rant. I'm tired and emotionally drained from what has amounted to beating my head against a wall for 3 years trying to get something, anything in the public sector. I figured maybe an MPA would help, now I wonder if doing this will just amount to a sizable donation on my behalf to the school.

Again, like 2,539 past threads exactly like this one and the 3,405 in the future, the relevant question is: what do you like and want to do?

IMHO I don't see that here. Some young people on these thousands of utterly similar threads start out with 'I love design and architecture and places and yada', and generally us pessimists say 'go to bartending school to wait out the problems in the profession'. To the people like the OP who don't say 'I love x, y, z', we say what Raf said: call a time out and talk it over with the coaches about punting and having the defense hold field position for the offense to rest and take over.'

That is: an MPA isn't going to help you decide, based on what you've shared. Go to WA State or Colo, and find some Amendment 64 and ask yourself some questions; it wouldn't hurt to find a little hottie at the same time to get your head on straight, preferably as you sit on a mountain or two, then decide.

[dvdneal]

I think if you're questioning if a master's will get you a job or just become a donation to the school, then it's a donation. I think your master's should be targeted to the job you want. After all it's a lot of time and money. Go get a job in planning and see if you like it. Yes you'll have to move to some small town in a flyover state, but it's a start. If you're going for the master's anyway, just find a good party school and have fun. I hear USC is up on the list, but with new laws Washington State and Colorado will have a good run next year. You can worry about work when you grow up. When in doubt, do what I did, join the Navy and sleep with interesting women all over the world.

[LAKings55]

You folks are right! I haven't exactly been clear in what I'm looking for. I've sat here and ranted, and have for the most part talked about just getting a job. The reason I've done so is partially due to the state of the economy. I do actually enjoy planning. I didn't have the best experience in my internship with a county planning department, handling conditional compliance for folks in the boonies who hadn't removed trailers after home renovations. However, I do enjoy working with GIS and dealing with the public in general. I have great skills interacting with "taxpayers," and I'm primarily angling for a career in policy analysis and a future career in public administration now, hence the MPA. I suppose I just worry about dumping money into a Master's, interning, and then ending with nothing. However, that's the risk you take. On that note though, I'm open to any and all opportunities, in planning, in city budgeting and finance, internships, moving out of state, etc. I'm ready for the adventure. If in 30 years I'm an assistant city manager, then awesome. If the economy tanks fully and we're all penniless, then I'll at least have company. I enjoyed all your answers though, great stuff people.

I apologize for being yet another annoying young person making yet another thread whining about how they felt hoodwinked in studying planning, and they just want a job. Forgive us, we're young, and many of us are struggling with the realization that a college degree entitles you to absolutely nothing. I on the other hand, got out of college knowing full well I could not expect a cushy $50k+ a year job. I believe in paying one's dues, working your way up, and in the end, maybe you'll get a pat on the back.

[medea1919]

I've been there... I graduated in June of 2010 and interned for almost 2 years.

Finally last year I realized California wasn't giving me a full time job so I went on governementjobs.com like 3 times a week, perfected my resume and just applied to anywhere in the US I thought I wouldn't hate living. And it worked! I applied to around 30-50 jobs, I lost count... I got rejected on many, but also got a lot of responses... Finally, I had 2 phone interviews and 1 offered me the job and I took it.

I now live in Denver, CO. It's only a Planning Tech. job but I have no problem with starting at the bottom, and at least I have benefits and a 401 now. I want to go back to get my Master's... but I'm glad I did this. I studied Planning questions and interview techniques for my phone interviews. So I feel like if you keep trying you'll get somewhere, especially if you're serious about living anywhere. Also, if you really like GIS play that up because many of the employers I saw were looking for that (which I'm not particuarlly great at).

Good luck!

[Blide]

Finally last year I realized California wasn't giving me a full time job so I went on governementjobs.com like 3 times a week, perfected my resume and just applied to anywhere in the US I thought I wouldn't hate living. And it worked! I applied to around 30-50 jobs, I lost count... I got rejected on many, but also got a lot of responses... Finally, I had 2 phone interviews and 1 offered me the job and I took it.

While I certainly understand this sentiment, I'd be careful with this one. It's not unlikely that your geographic preferences align with others planners which can mean more competition and a more difficult job search. Applying to places you'd hate to live is probably the best way to get a job since you're probably not alone in having that sentiment. Once you put in some time in a place like that, you'll have an easier time getting a job in a more desirable place.

[otterpop]

As I have responded to similar requests for advice, I will tell you what I told them. Cast a really large net, and if that didn't work, then cast a larger one. After getting out of school, I applied everywhere. To places I didn't want to even necessarily work (West Fargo, ND), From Souix City IA to Ketchikan AK, Literally a few weeks from being broke and having to go back to live with my parents, I landed a job in Ketchikan, AK. I spent a year and a half there before I landed my current job in my favorite city.

Applying for job is a little like the junior high dance. You can keep asking the girls that everyone else is asking and get shot down time after time. Or you can ask a lot of girls and eventually there will be one who is willing to give your a chance to dazzle her.

[wahday]

What I would say about getting a masters is that for it to work for you, its essential that you have inspiration for the nature of the coursework (ie, that planning in the general sense is the kind of work you want to do) AND that you go to an actual physical school with advisors and professors you can sit down and talk with.

Why is this important? Because to a large degree, graduate school is an opportunity to use your contacts (professors, community studios, internships, etc.) to demonstrate your strengths and potentials. I have a hard time seeing that happen for a planning degree online. Creative writing maybe, but not planning. Its too based in real community work and one’s ability to interact positively with others in both groups and individually. Plus, internships come through planning schools specifically for planning students, so there is a track created that employers use to identify potential talent.

My graduate planning experience has led directly to all my employment opportunities since I finished. I was a known quantity if not to the employer than to someone the employer trusted and this all came through these professional opportunities made possible by my being a student. These came through studios, an internship and contract jobs for graduate students. I excelled at some and not at others, but it helped me chart my course overall. Planning graduate school also opened my eyes to the full range of things a planner can do. I will also say I had to suck it up initially and take work with less pay than I hoped for, but in time working in the same field and demonstrating one's work, one does move up and get better pay. Though I will never become rich as a planner.

I definitely feel for you. You are in a demographic and possibly a part of the country where finding employment, especially in this field, is really challenging. And I also recognize that in such a market, breaking into the public sector can be especially challenging because there are a lot of overqualified candidates applying for many of the same positions you are. I say do some soul searching about planning. If you still want to pursue it, graduate school at a real physical place may be a good route to go.

I hope this is helpful info.

[bentobox34]

My big problem, at least with planning listings, stems from the fact that nearly all disqualify me. Associate planner listings nearly all state "bachelor's with at least one year full-time professional experience." Obviously, internships don't count towards that. So basically, it would seem, one would have to intern or volunteer, and hope a position opens up and that they like you enough to give you an edge in getting the position.

Just wanted to follow up since it looks like no one else corrected you on this. Yes, internships do count towards required years of experience in this context (assuming the work you did as an intern is relevant to the position you're taking). If it was part time, they will pro-rate. For example, my first Assistant Planner position required a Master's degree plus six months of full-time experience; I had done an internship 15 hours/week during the school year and full time over the summer, so they added up the hours and it checked out.

[medea1919]

While I certainly understand this sentiment, I'd be careful with this one. It's not unlikely that your geographic preferences align with others planners which can mean more competition and a more difficult job search. Applying to places you'd hate to live is probably the best way to get a job since you're probably not alone in having that sentiment. Once you put in some time in a place like that, you'll have an easier time getting a job in a more desirable place.

It can make the job search more difficult, but I didn't just apply at just big cities either... I applied at places nearby to cities I liked as well and at both cities/counties and anything that seemed like it could work for me or was still near cities that sounded cool or geogrpahic features I like (like mountains... I'm not fond of flat, empty areas, that's just me)

Also, I think it's important to recognize what you could be happy with. I applied from Oregon to East Coast to Colorado to Northern California to Texas... but I also knew I wouldn't be happy living in a New Mexico desert or Oklahoma or Nebraska... and I definetely didn't want to live anywhere I wasn't interested in exploring. That worked for me, but as you said it may not work for everyone.

[Blide]

Yeah I'm definitely not criticizing since there are huge segments of the country I wouldn't want to live either. I also know from first hand experience that it's really hard to be passionate about your community when you don't like the area and have no intention of staying there long term.

[nrschmid]

Yeah I'm definitely not criticizing since there are huge segments of the country I wouldn't want to live either. I also know from first hand experience that it's really hard to be passionate about your community when you don't like the area and have no intention of staying there long term.

But that doesn't mean you can't do good planning there. My planning project count is probably over 150 over the past decade, and at least 35-40% of those projects are in undesirable areas/boring communities. One was a series of architectural renderings for a waste treatment plant, another was conducting an inventory of billboard signage in an industrial town, another was analyzing natural gas well sites in GIS. Work is work is work. Doing it correctly is more important than the project itself.

[ColoGI]

But that doesn't mean you can't do good planning there. My planning project count is probably over 150 over the past decade, and at least 35-40% of those projects are in undesirable areas/boring communities. One was a series of architectural renderings for a waste treatment plant, another was conducting an inventory of billboard signage in an industrial town, another was analyzing natural gas well sites in GIS. Work is work is work. Doing it correctly is more important than the project itself.

Traveling to an area to stay for a project is one thing, living in a place that doesn't appeal to you is another thing entirely. If you are sad because you hate it there, your work suffers. I'm another where there are large sections of this country where I simply won't live, or have lived and no way will return. Where nrschmid is now? No way, no how, nuh-uh, fuhgeddaboudit. My better half is the same way (fortunately the same places).

[Blide]

For myself, I won't necessarily say my work quality drops but it can definitely be harder to fight for things. I mean where I'm at now, we're fighting for things that other parts of the country implemented decades ago. It's even more difficult if you're originally from one of those "progressive" areas of the country and you now find yourself battling just to get back to your status quo. I'm certainly willing to do this some but unfortunately there's a limit to what I can do before my enthusiasm takes a big hit.

[nrschmid]

Where nrschmid is now? No way, no how, nuh-uh, fuhgeddaboudit. My better half is the same way (fortunately the same places).[/QUOTE]

What do you have against Houston, TX? It's the fourth largest metro area in the country and I finally can do massive scale physical land planning (subdivisions, master planned communities, and town centers) which is my dream job. Will I ever return home to Chicago? Probably if I have to take care of my parents when they get older. Will I ever return to Wichita, KS? Absolutely not.

[ColoGI]

What do you have against Houston, TX? It's the fourth largest metro area in the country and I finally can do massive scale physical land planning (subdivisions, master planned communities, and town centers) which is my dream job. Will I ever return home to Chicago? Probably if I have to take care of my parents when they get older. Will I ever return to Wichita, KS? Absolutely not.

I lived in Dallas for 9 months and the first opportunity to get the h--- out of there I took it. Blech. I'm a westerner. We don't have humidity, bugs of the month, fire ants, heat, flat, and tons of other stuff that I can't mention because it will make folks mad.