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Thread: De Noc

  1. #151
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    So what are some of your most exciting or largest upcoming projects?
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  2. #152
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    So what are some of your most exciting or largest upcoming projects?
    Some of the bigger projects include:

    Determining traffic flow issues and traffic density counts for all main roads. I have some older neighborhoods in the near east side of De Noc that are traffic nightmares, due to truck-congested 2-lane streets serving some of the area's oldest industrial plants. I also have a few feeder limited-access highways that need some upgrading. Identifying flows and counts will allow me to establish traffic management priorities.

    Regional government.....at least in terms of fire protection as a "starting point" will get some pencil time from this Bear. My metro has way too many suburbs, each with its' own fire department. Time to force these people into some cooperative agreements and reduce the fire halls.

    Another large project involves the De Noc Transit System (DNTS). My plans involve identifying the demographics of the neighborhoods within walking distance of monorail stations. That process will include establishing some retail presence in those foot corridors. I will probably "bite the bullet" and establish bus routes. (Now that will be a time-consuming project.)

    An exciting project (or series of projects) will be the re-draw of plats that hold De Noc's professional sports venues. If you compare De Noc to other metros of a similar size, newer sports venues are common. The De Noc Memorial Coliseum was built in 1955. Hockey and basketball are both played in that aging facility. I expect that private corporation funding, probably from De Noc's only Fortune 500 headquartered company, Star, Inc., will help build a hockey arena. We may have to get some government help to fund the basketball arena. The Plastic Bowl football stadium was built (same style as Three Rivers) in 1962. City fathers expect to replace that big circle stadium soon....or risk having the NFL team leave the community.

    In the past few months I have been working on some infrastructure-related items. Water treatment facilities and fresh water supply facilities are both in the process of being upgraded. I still have one (1) more coal-fired electricity plant to build.

    On a rather sad note (but realistic), I have to start closing a number of industrial plants. Facilities slated for closing, with a significant number of layoffs, include plastic toy factories, a computer-parts factory, and some auto parts plants. The new world economy.....

    Police Districts in the corporate limits of De Noc are also on the table. I will be using some data from Cyburbia's own ICT 316 to establish realistic police districts.

    Some neat projects on the table are establishment of a zoological park, building a medical college, establishing a major Catholic university, and building a major theme park.

    There are many other projects, big and small, that trip my trigger. Now if I can just find that gun.....

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  3. #153
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Bear Up North
    Some of the bigger projects include:

    Determining traffic flow issues and traffic density counts for all main roads. I have some older neighborhoods in the near east side of De Noc that are traffic nightmares, due to truck-congested 2-lane streets serving some of the area's oldest industrial plants. I also have a few feeder limited-access highways that need some upgrading. Identifying flows and counts will allow me to establish traffic management priorities.

    Regional government.....at least in terms of fire protection as a "starting point" will get some pencil time from this Bear. My metro has way too many suburbs, each with its' own fire department. Time to force these people into some cooperative agreements and reduce the fire halls.

    Another large project involves the De Noc Transit System (DNTS). My plans involve identifying the demographics of the neighborhoods within walking distance of monorail stations. That process will include establishing some retail presence in those foot corridors. I will probably "bite the bullet" and establish bus routes. (Now that will be a time-consuming project.)

    An exciting project (or series of projects) will be the re-draw of plats that hold De Noc's professional sports venues. If you compare De Noc to other metros of a similar size, newer sports venues are common. The De Noc Memorial Coliseum was built in 1955. Hockey and basketball are both played in that aging facility. I expect that private corporation funding, probably from De Noc's only Fortune 500 headquartered company, Star, Inc., will help build a hockey arena. We may have to get some government help to fund the basketball arena. The Plastic Bowl football stadium was built (same style as Three Rivers) in 1962. City fathers expect to replace that big circle stadium soon....or risk having the NFL team leave the community.

    In the past few months I have been working on some infrastructure-related items. Water treatment facilities and fresh water supply facilities are both in the process of being upgraded. I still have one (1) more coal-fired electricity plant to build.

    On a rather sad note (but realistic), I have to start closing a number of industrial plants. Facilities slated for closing, with a significant number of layoffs, include plastic toy factories, a computer-parts factory, and some auto parts plants. The new world economy.....

    Police Districts in the corporate limits of De Noc are also on the table. I will be using some data from Cyburbia's own ICT 316 to establish realistic police districts.

    Some neat projects on the table are establishment of a zoological park, building a medical college, establishing a major Catholic university, and building a major theme park.

    There are many other projects, big and small, that trip my trigger. Now if I can just find that gun.....

    Bear
    Wow...very nice. Looks like you take demographics and statistics and the like very seriously in making decisions regarding your city.

    Road improvements ave always been near the top of my list of ongoing projects, as are constantly reconfiguring schools and fire stations. Parks as well.

    I still have to establish bus routes for my city as well...a bullet to bite indeed.

    Wow, you've got some old stadiums on your hands. I was looking at the World Almanac and the 1950s/1960s era stadiums are rapidly dwindling.

    I'm also surprised you don't have a zoological park already. It seems like even the smallest of cities (i.e. plenty of 100,000 pop. cities) have them.

    It's cool to see that you change what's in your industrial areas as the times change.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  4. #154
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    Wow...very nice. Looks like you take demographics and statistics and the like very seriously in making decisions regarding your city.

    Road improvements ave always been near the top of my list of ongoing projects, as are constantly reconfiguring schools and fire stations. Parks as well.

    I still have to establish bus routes for my city as well...a bullet to bite indeed.

    Wow, you've got some old stadiums on your hands. I was looking at the World Almanac and the 1950s/1960s era stadiums are rapidly dwindling.
    Isn't Lambeau Field the oldest stadium structure currently in use in the NFL?

    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    I'm also surprised you don't have a zoological park already. It seems like even the smallest of cities (i.e. plenty of 100,000 pop. cities) have them.

    It's cool to see that you change what's in your industrial areas as the times change.
    I'd be curious as to how heavy freight railroad traffic is running westward and southwestward from this metro. Those lines in the corridor that runs from there to Chicago (via Green Bay, et al) must be trainwatchers' paradise.

    Also, a metro like that in a place like that would likely have two six-lane interstates connecting it directly to the south, in addition to a four-laner to the 'real life' Mackinac Bridge and another routing to the west roughly along 'real life' US 8. The two routings that I an thinking of are a six-laner roughly along 'real life' M-35/US 41 and an island-hopping six-lane bridge complex via Door County, WI.

    There would be a *LOT* of commerce between metro 'De Noc' and eastern Wisconsin/northeast Illinois.

    Mike

  5. #155
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920
    The two routings that I an thinking of are a six-laner roughly along 'real life' M-35/US 41 and an island-hopping six-lane bridge complex via Door County, WI.
    I think I and the rest of the people who live in or frequent Door County would throw a hissy-fit about that. And it's very rocky in that area...very difficult to build a bridge i would think. Some of those spans would be incredibly long too.

    You're very right though in pointing out that this metro would be tied heavily to Detroit and Chicago/Milwaukee. I think a 6-lane highway extension of 43/41 from Green Bay to DeNoc via Menomonee/Marinette would be adequate enough though.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  6. #156
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Answers & Comments

    Stadiums.....Yeap.....De Noc has a number of older professional sports venues, not unlike the former position of similar-sized communities such as Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, etc. Replacements are on the board, but I will try to realistically approach new stadiums from a funding point of view.

    Lambeau Field was built in 1957. The only NFL facility I can recall that would be older is Soldier Field. However.....they completely retrofitted Soldier Field a couple years ago, apparently using much of of the original perimeter. Do you consider it a new stadium or an older stadium?

    Zoo.....This has been on my project list for many years. Not sure why I never got around to building one (1) in my fake metro. Perhaps one (1) reason is that I have spent the majority of my time when doing new plats working in the southwestern and southeastern metro. My thoughts for a zoo are to have placement in the higher (and hillier) areas of of the north metro. Reason? Just spreading the wealth.

    Railroad Traffic.....This weekend I will pull out my drawings and schematics for the rail lines that serve all of the state of Northern Michigan. Most traffic is routed from the metro westward and south (from western junctions). The only rail traffic that is "local" (within a couple hundred miles) is ore traffic from the mines west of Marquette (going to the ore loading facility in De Noc and coal that is unloaded from "lakers" and moved to area electrical-generating plants. Long inbound unit trains of Wyoming (environmentally-friendly) coal also enter the area, for those same De Noc Edison Company facilities.

    More later.

    Expressway Traffic.....As mentioned in this thread (a while back), I-98 cuts across Northern Michigan from I-75 on the eastern side of the peninsula (a few miles north of St. Ignace) to a junction with I-43 about fifty (50) miles west of the metro. In my world, I-43 extends to the Lake Superior shore at Marquette.

    When I-98 is in the metro it rolls through the central business district of De Noc, but travelers can do a trip around the main metro by following I-498 or I-298, the "belt" highways (known collectively as Metropolitan Parkway).

    I also have on the project list a pay-as-you-go highway known as The Superior Tollway. I already built the southern terminus (in the northern suburbs), complete with a toll booth. Riders can shorten the trip to Marquette via this toll road, an assumption of "need" based on my metro size and expected growth within sixty (60) miles. ("As the crow flies" road versus going west on I-98 and turning north on I-43.)

    Yes, mgk, I recall your post that indicates extending I-43 would be a wetland issue. But, commerce marches on.

    Island-Hopping.....Ever since that suggestion was made in a previous post it has intriqued me. This is country that illinoisplanner has spent some time in, so he is familiar with the obstacles. It is also just east of the home base of mgk920, so he knows it well, too.

    Realistically.....other similar-sized metros have done similar things. Even though very costly (due to the length of some of the bridges and causeways) those who drive commerce would probably push for such a project.

    I envision problems with weather on the exposed causeways (this ain't no Sunshine Skyway!). My preliminary research shows some pretty deep water between the islands that would be used as anchors. Perhaps a tunnel portion, for the main channel?

    If approved, this would very significantly change the growth patterns in the southeast and east suburbs of De Noc, because this island-hopping expressway would require a turn to the east before turning to the south (to access the Garden Peninsula). I also see Door County, WI, has going through some incredible changes after construction and all that traffic starts whizzin' by.

    Time for a little more research.
    _____

    As always, thanx for your questions and comments.

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  7. #157
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Some Railroad Info

    As promised in a recent De Noc post, here are a few comments related to railroads in Northern Michigan and the De Noc metropolitan area.

    I have a 1977 edition map of railroad lines in the USA and southern Canada. This Norfolk & Western map was a template that I used to create the lines that I have in Northern Michigan. Important to note that those of us who are model railroaders also tend to create fictional lines (or settings) that would have / could have existed in our make-believe world. Model railroad geeks know of such well-known fictional lines as the Virginian & Ohio (V&O), the Sunset Valley (SV), and the Utah Belt (UB). In most instances, fictional model railroad lines link with real railroads, creating an atmosphere of "railroading beyond the basement". This technique was used in De Noc.

    North Central.....This fictional railroad is an upper midwest hauler, with major yards and interchanges at Fargo, ND, De Noc, and Sault Ste. Marie, MI. At Fargo the NC links with Burlington Northern trackage. Environmentally-friendly coal is the prime good that is hauled on eastbound NC unit trains, bound for electrical generating power plants in the De Noc metro. In the Michigan Soo, the NC junctions with the Soo Line and the Canadian Pacific. General freight is the rule of thumb on this NC line, both west and east bound.

    Corporate offices for the North Central Railroad are in De Noc. Adjacent to corporate is the road's main maintenance facility. NC trackage also runs into the southwestern suburbs, primarily to serve as the link to other railroads from the huge Trinity Corporation railroad car manufacturing plant.

    De Noc Trunk Line Railroad.....This small fictional line serves the eastern areas of De Noc, which is heavily-industrialized. DNTL trackage junctions with Soo Line trackage that runs east and North Central trackage that runs north and northeast (toward Sault Ste. Marie).

    De Noc Belt Line Railroad.....This small fictional line serves the western areas of De Noc, including the plastics-intensive industrial area of the southwestern metro. DNBL trackage junctions with the following westbound lines: The Soo Line, the North Central and the Chicago & Northwestern.

    Soo Line.....In the real world, the Soo Line's classic white consists have been replaced with Wisconsin Central's burgundy cars. In my world, the Soo Line (my real favorite) still exists. The Soo junctions with the De Noc Trunk Line, the De Noc Belt Line, and has main lines that travel east-west on both sides of the giant metropolitan area. The line in the northern suburbs is drawn only "in my head".....it will get it's just due when I finally draw the far north suburbs. The line in the south suburbs, paralleling the Lake Michigan coastline, is partially-drawn.

    Iron Ore.....I have mentioned in other posts that De Noc is a prime shipper (on the great lakes) of iron ore pellets from the huge open-pit mines that are west of Marquette. In my world, when the Soo Locks are closed for the season, ore traffic is routed to De Noc's Lake Michigan ore facility. The ore hauling unit trains are loaded on Lake Superior & Ishpeming tracks, hauled south to a junction in the middle of the peninsula with the Soo Line, and Soo motive power moves the consists to the ore docks in De Noc.

    The Straits Of Mackinac.....Years ago this Bear had a chance to watch the train car hauling ferry that operated from St. Ignace (Upper Peninsula) to Mackinaw City (Lower Peninsula) load train cars at its' St. Ignace dock. That dock is now gone.

    In my world, I capitulate to the economics of commerce. The docks are gone and railroad traffic from lower Michigan is routed through Wisconsin.

    West Of The Metro.....The Soo Lines' westbound route out of the metro works its' way to Escanaba and points beyond (Green Bay, Milwaukee, St. Paul). The North Central motors toward towns south of Duluth and on to Fargo. The Chicago & Northwestern heads west, with lines that go north to Marquette and lines that turn south toward Green Bay (and points south).
    _____

    I have always tried to blend a bit of realism in with a dose of fantasy. That would sum up my (freight) railroad lines that serve Metropolitan De Noc's 2,000,000 residents.

    In previous posts I indicated that Amtrak does not serve the metro. Good arguments have been presented that push for a "realistic view" that Amtrak would not abandon a real world that included this giant city on the northern shores of Lake Michigan.

    I am considering that.

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  8. #158
    Cyburbian safege's avatar
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    If you want to add fantasy onto fantasy, you could build a SAFEGE monorail beltway for freight and transit service. Freight could be off-lifted at a 10-20 degree grade and switched into the beltway loop. Examples of suspended systems can be found in the history of mining.

    I've brought this idea up for Mpls/St. Paul when a citizens imput for transit planning event took place. Another one is scheduled in Febuary, but it is such a collection of agencies that I don't know how useful it really is.

    The history of transit in my area consisted entirely of buses until recently. The poorer citizens lived near the metros and took the bus. As these people could afford cars, they bought them. So now this group are the last people who would consider taking the bus. The only growth to bus ridership is happening in express routes to the suburbs. This change in usage has seen transit riders with higher incomes, that drive to the bus, and that are interested in politics and vote every year. Interesting, yes?

    Since most of the routes that people say they need are no longer to the metros, but spread out over several counties, the only ideas that have been rejected so far are downtown shuttle bus service, and transit hub centered service.

    Did I mention that steel wheel SAFEGE is enclosed on three sides, so what you have is rail transit, going 70 - 80 mph. in a continuous beltway loop, in the middle of a snowstorm, on the only dry road in town.

    Did I mention the whole thing is automated, well I guess my signature says that.
    Psychotics are consistently inconsistent. The essence of sanity is to be inconsistently inconsistent.
    -Larry Wall

  9. #159
    Got any photos / plans of DeNoc?

  10. #160
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by exhibition1st
    Got any photos / plans of DeNoc?
    I popped a couple photos in the Cyburbia Gallery. They don't show much. I have to figure out a way to get a good photo shoot of some samples / examples of my city.

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  11. #161
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    A Boat Ride With The Metro In View

    Regular readers of this thread know that De Noc and the metropolitan area are located on the northern shoreline of Lake Michigan, specifically on Big Bay De Noc. To give you a different viewpoint of the metro, let's take a motorboat ride along the shoreline.

    Our ride is provided by a charter boat captain, aboard his 32-foot Marinette. The boat is berthed at one (1) of the major marinas that inhabit the first half-mile of Bailey Creek, just west of the creek's mouth on Big Bay De Noc. As we motor east on Bailey Creek we pass under Bailey Creek Road, the main thoroughfare of the small city with the same name (population 2000 census, 9215). On our right is the Bailey Creek Yacht Club and the De Noc Harbor Patrol slip, both adjacent to Bailey Creek Beach & Park. On the left is Anchor Pointe Marina and the United States Coast Guard Station. A large stone breakwall juts out from the main shoreline, into the bay, protecting the mouth of the river from east winds. As we move into the bay we pass between the marker lights.

    Turning northeast, we move away from Bailey Creek. Immediately ahead of us are the numerous buildings (include high-rises) that line the shore of Katie Shores. This city of 33,285 has not been afraid to allow development along its' coast line. As we turn the cruiser more due east we move past the Brandywine Apartments, a 16-story Northern Hardwoods Corporation tower, a 20-story Gold Medal Life Insurance Company tower, and Ralphie's Sports Bar (with a small adjacent protected area for boats to pull-up to the tavern).

    Next in view are the three (3) 28-story Bayview Towers apartments. Just east of these luxury high-rises is Katie Shores Park and Beach (180 acres). The beach is always popular in July and August......it stays shallow, with a sandy bottom, for a considerable distance away from the shore, making it very family-friendly.

    The very tall (800-feet) structure that dominates the landscape is Star Tower, next in view. This tower, a smaller version of Toronto's CN Tower, is one (1) of a number of "destinations" in the suburb of Katie Shores. Behind the tower we can see the parking garages that are used for the tower and the Sea-Lake Aquarium. We can also see the concrete pylons of the Katie Shores People-Mover (which connects the Tower, the Aquarium, a convention center a half-mile north, and the metro's largest regional shopping center). As we motor past Sea-Lake Aquarium we also notice a large number of bicycle riders on the popular Katie Shores Bike Trail (9 miles total length).

    Northern Lights Mall then comes into our view. Attached to the huge retail facility are a number of high-rise casinos and hotels. Even from our vantage point well off-shore we can see the heavy traffic in the mall area.

    The scene changes dramatically past the mall area. The tall buildings and commercial enterprises end.....and we view numerous large homes that are built on the shoreline. As we turn back slightly north (following the shoreline) we continue for more than one (1) mile, viewing these homes that were built in the latter part of the 19th Century.

    We again steer our Marinette Cruiser due east and view the last of the lakeside homes. Heavily wooded areas than dominate the scene, including some small wooded islands. This is the delta of the metro's largest river, the Sturgeon. This is all area that is within the De Noc corporate boundaries. As we pass the river mouth we can see the busy public boat launch, just past the North Central Railroad bridge. We also know that travel upstream on the Sturgeon is not possible for power boats, due to the rapids (elevation changes).

    From the wild look of the Sturgeon River Greenbelt our view jolts back to industrial and commercial. There is a large stone breakwall in this area, protecting the ore docks that are the first facilties we see as we enter the corporate limits of Nahma Junction (population 2000 census, 7780). The ore dock complex takes a lot of lakefront real estate. Oddly enough, these docks are busier in cold-weather months, because of Lake Michigan's ice-free status compared to Lake Superior. Behind the ore docks area we can see railroads and factories.

    Continuing eastward we see a small heavily-wooded area. This is Port Noc Park, a 50-acre splatch of green, accessible by bike path only. There is no beach at this small park.....just some small benches for sitting and watching the lake freighters come and go.

    Next on our port side (left side of the boat, you landlubbers) is a continuation of Port of De Noc facilities.....the Nahma Junction General Cargo Facility. There are a couple large freighter slips here, with a large loading-unloading crane adjacent, named by local schoolchildren (in a 1950's contest)....."Big Noc". Just east of the cargo docks is a small protected area for the fleet of tugs that assist the lakers as they arrive or depart from the Port of De Noc.

    Two (2) more large industrial facilities dominate the view just past the tug berth area.....National Grain Wholesalers (the area's only grain elevator) and Michaelson Shipbuilding Corporation's huge plant. This facility started as a manufacturer of lake freighters but has moved into manufacturing of military assault craft.

    We swing the cruiser back to the southeast, as we move toward the bayside city of Sunset Beach.
    _____

    Note: This is where the tour ends. All of the lakeshore communities to the east of Nahma Junction have NOT been drawn. Future plans include 4-miles of Sunset Beach shoreline, 3-miles of Stony Pointe shoreline, 4-miles of De Noc corporate limits shoreline, 2-miles of Poplar Pointe shoreline, 3-miles of Lakeview shoreline, 2-miles of Angel Pointe shoreline, 5-miles of Porcupine Pointe shoreline, 3-miles of Swan Center shoreline, and 1-mile of Germaine Spring shoreline.

    Future plans also call for a large rollar-coaster dominated theme park (Angel Pointe), an oil refinery, a coal-fired De Noc Edison Company electric power plant.
    As I draw new communities I hope to use a blend of "best-of" mixed with the realities of what would happen in the real world if this place was "real".
    _____

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  12. #162
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    Great cruise but

    What no historic lighthouse, sand dunes, or cliffs ?
    Oddball
    Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?
    Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
    Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
    From Kelly's Heroes (1970)


    Are you sure you're not hurt ?
    No. Just some parts wake up faster than others.
    Broke parts take a little longer, though.
    From Electric Horseman (1979)

  13. #163
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by JNA
    Great cruise but

    What no historic lighthouse, sand dunes, or cliffs ?
    At the northernmost point of Big Bay De Noc, the land is generally just a few feet above the water level. It is sandy, shallow and somewhat weedy. The Garden Peninsula, which forms the eastern land barrier of Big Bay De Noc, has some substantial limestone cliffs. The Stonington Peninsula, which forms the western barrier of the bay, has some elevation.....and a neat historic lighthouse at the very tip.

    The area that includes De Noc and all of the lakeshore suburbs is as described above, looking over the northern waters of Big Bay De Noc.

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  14. #164
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Shopping Malls In Downtown Question

    I could have placed this line of questioning in the RANDOM thread, in any thread related to central business districts, or in any SHOPPING CENTER-related thread. But, it is primarily a De Noc challenge, so it is in this thread:

    My fake city has two (2) shopping malls in the downtown area.

    Towne Center Mall.....This mall, located in the northwestern portion of downtown De Noc, is in the heart of office towers and a number of retail venues. Just four (4) city blocks to the east are all of the city and county government offices. This mall has 80 storefronts, including 3 large anchor stores, is directly connected via the De Noc SkyTube System to another two (2) large department stores, and has seven (7) restaurants, two (2) taverns, and a nine (9) unit food court area. There is no residential apartment or loft living in this area of the downtown district. Access is good, via a DNTS Red Line Station and a People Mover Station.

    North Star Mall.....This mall, located in the south-central portion of downtown De Noc, is in the heart of the area that has theaters, some retail, many office towers, a huge hospital complex, a business college, and is within a few city blocks of the De Noc Convention Center. This mall has 80 storefronts, including 2 large anchor stores, is directly connected via SkyTube to a couple more large department stores, and has five (5) restaurants, two (2) taverns, and an 8-unit food court area. There is considerable residential apartment and loft living in this area. Access is good, via a People-Mover Station.

    The Challenge.....Metropolitan De Noc has a little over 2,000,000 people. I have been trying to Google information on similar-sized northern climate cities, to determine of my downtown could REALLY support two (2) malls of this size. I know that there is considerable retail in downtown Minneapolis, but I can't determine exactly how much. De Noc's public transit would certainly be an advantage. Perhaps, there is a ratio number that is grabbed from the number of residents living downtown or the number of downtown office workers.

    And related to the office workers question.....does that mean that the downtown malls do "great" during the weekday but are quiet at night and on weekends? Is downtown shopping on weekends only going to occur in the bigger places like NYC, Chicago, and Toronto? The downtown also has a number of movie theaters. That should bring people downtown at night and on weekends.....but in all reality, in our mobile sprawl-society ("sprawlciety") would those folks take a monorail ride or just wander over to their local mall?

    I am prepared to shutter malls, if that is what I need to do. Anybody with any suggestions or comments?

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  15. #165
    Cyburbian safege's avatar
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    This site will either be very helpfull, or give you a headache. I quit looking, so I'll never know for sure.

    http://www.icsc.org/srch/rsrch/scope...ex.php?region=

    The "by State" option might have been perfect, but you need to become a member.


    In Minneapolis, english as a second language schools, law schools, arts schools, and K-12 pilot schools are all over downtown. Multiplex theatres died out completely, but are trying to make a comeback. Really only one thing is for sure, if you have an idea for upscale dining or dancing, do not even think about Minneapolis. (at least three are proving that theory right at any given time, kind of sad, really)
    Psychotics are consistently inconsistent. The essence of sanity is to be inconsistently inconsistent.
    -Larry Wall

  16. #166
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Strip Shopping Centers

    This Bear has been working on the project that identifies names, addresses, and number of storefronts for all of the strip shopping centers located in the Metropolitan De Noc Area. Most of the strip centers have six (6) to fifteen (15) storefronts, although a few have less and a few have more. Regular shopping centers, malls, regional malls are not included in this look-see project.

    The metro has about one hundred (100) of these centers. The metro area population is just over 2,000,000.

    Anybody out there have a feel for the numbers? Do I have too many strip centers for this total population? Not enough?

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  17. #167
    Cyburbian Plus
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    Is DeNoc a NWS "Storm Ready" Community: http://www.stormready.noaa.gov/
    Oddball
    Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?
    Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
    Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
    From Kelly's Heroes (1970)


    Are you sure you're not hurt ?
    No. Just some parts wake up faster than others.
    Broke parts take a little longer, though.
    From Electric Horseman (1979)

  18. #168
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by JNA
    Is DeNoc a NWS "Storm Ready" Community: http://www.stormready.noaa.gov/
    JNA.....interesting link. The example in the link that focuses on the lives saved in an Ohio movie theater happened just a bit west of this Bear's den, in NW Ohio (Van Wert). It was an incredible story.

    Pictures taken after the storm of an industrial park in Van Wert (totally destroyed) were used by me at planning sessions for my company's Workplace Emergency Planning team.
    _____

    The link does not show any Upper Michigan counties in the program. In a world that included De Noc, we would be part of this group. Tornadoes CAN happen up north, and in fact one (1) happened in the county I was in, camping, a few years ago.

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  19. #169
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Bear Up North
    This Bear has been working on the project that identifies names, addresses, and number of storefronts for all of the strip shopping centers located in the Metropolitan De Noc Area. Most of the strip centers have six (6) to fifteen (15) storefronts, although a few have less and a few have more. Regular shopping centers, malls, regional malls are not included in this look-see project.

    The metro has about one hundred (100) of these centers. The metro area population is just over 2,000,000.

    Anybody out there have a feel for the numbers? Do I have too many strip centers for this total population? Not enough?

    Bear
    I will have to do similar research as I gave up on naming the tenants for many of my newer strip centers as I want to be sure not to saturate a particular area with 5 Subways but no real estate offices, and the opposite occurring in the other part of town.

    I will say though that I don't think 100 of those centers is nearly enough for a metro of 2 million, from a realistic standpoint. Granted, we are both in agreement that a strip center is a neighborhood shopping center which contains small apx. 1,000 sq. ft. tenants like sub shops, cleaners, ice cream places, coffee shops, donut shops, real estate offices, hair salons, insurance agents, pizza places, and so forth.

    I don't know how many my city has, but I'm pretty sure I at least have about 15 at least (for a sprawling suburb of 47,000).

    I can also say that near me in real life there are about 350 stores total (including both big box and strip center shops) on a major 3-mile long retail corridor, and plenty more on other nearby arteries.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  20. #170
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Spaghetti Interchanges

    I was reading the web site from Louisville, KY, that described plans (and options) for an area that locals in that metro refer to as "Spaghetti Junction" or some such name. Many communities have them.....a pack of roads, some limited-access and some regular arterials, all meet in and around the same general plot of land. The results, when photographed from the air, are often interesting and neatly artistic. The chaos down below, though, can rattle many a nerve of the drivers as they weave through these spaghetti interchanges.

    The thread got me to thinking about metropolitan De Noc.....

    The Interchange.....This spaghetti junction has been drawn since the mid-1960's. It does look great.....and complicated.....from the air. I believe that it is time to add a drastic 21st Century upgrade to my project list. Here are all the roads coming into this junction, which is located about five miles north of downtown De Noc, in the area of the State Capitol and the Museum of Science & Industry:

    Oakland Feeder (Short Expressway from I-98)
    Richland Boulevard (Shopping areas, some high-rises, 8 lanes at the junction)
    Oakland Boulevard (This road hugs Devils Lake, entering the junction from the southeast)
    Wildwood Avenue (4-lane boulevard that motors toward area's oldest suburb, Wildwood)
    Devils Key Parkway (This road hugs the north side of Devil Lake)

    Northern De Noc Area.....This spaghetti junction involves a number of different expressway routes. It is about twenty years old and does need some minor upgrading. here's the list:

    I-98 (Metropolitan Parkway - North) (East of the junction)
    I-98 (Northern Michigan Expressway)
    I-498 (Metropolitan Parkway - North) (West of the junction)
    Superior Tollway (Limited access toll road that shoots up to Marquette)

    Others.....There are some others that are all quite new. I tried to design them with more up-to-date easements and interchange distance spacing. Because of the complexity of some of them, because of the physical land features in some of the areas that they are in, and because of the arterials that are involved.....spaghetti may rule.

    The suburb of Little Fishdam has the interchange of I-298 (Metropolitan Parkway - East) and the Southgate Expressway. Not much spaghetti here but I used a whole lot of real estate to create this diagonal junction.

    The western suburb of Winterwoods has a similar large acreage interchange, involving I-98 & US 2 (both the Metropolitan Parkway - South and the Southbelt Expressway), West Warwick Hills Boulevard, and Concord Avenue. Complicating the junction is the out-flow of traffic into downtown Winterwoods.

    The western suburb of Porcupine Lake has a complicated spaghetti junction at the interchange of I-98 (Metropolitan Parkway - South), I-398 (The Sturgeon River Parkway), and Foxe Lake Road.

    The western suburb of Hiawatha has more spaghetti, at the junction of I-98 (Metropolitan Parkway - South), Sunshine Parkway, and The De Noc Sportsway (a 4-lane limited-access road that transverses the Plastic Bowl NFL Football Stadium and the large Fairhaven Memorial Arena, a minor league hockey venue.) Further complicating this interchange are access roads going to the newer Hiawatha Value Mall.
    _____

    Time to put on the engineering cap and make some improvements. Gotta keep the traffic flowing, even at the high price of petrol.

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  21. #171
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Close to, or will reach 100 degrees along Colorado's front range.
    What is the forecast in De Noc? Are the lakes open to canoeing yet? Are the northern pike biting this time of year?
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  22. #172
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by zmanPLAN
    Close to, or will reach 100 degrees along Colorado's front range.
    What is the forecast in De Noc? Are the lakes open to canoeing yet? Are the northern pike biting this time of year?
    The forecast for the balance of this second week in June is for temperatures in the mid-to-upper 70F range. Chance of t-storms each day. Evening temps about 50F. Saturday will be the warmest day, near 80F.

    The Northern Pike are not hitting as well as they were a couple months ago. However, the Walleye are hitting....you have to troll and get your lure deep. Smallmouth and Largemouth are hitting, especially on the edges of the weedbeds in the morning and the evening.

    In areas in the De Noc Metro, the Sanitary District people spray for mosquitos so no problem putting in a canoe or a boat. When you get out into the forest, though, early June is a killer for bugs. Lots of skeeters and black flies. They will all calm down by mid-July.

    On the beaches the sunny days bring out the biting sand flies. Hope for a strong wing to keep them away from you.

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  23. #173
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Road & Traffic Issues Adjacent To Hospitals

    In another thread there was some discussion about major medical centers.....traffic in and around those centers, pedestrian access, etc. The article that keyed that discussion was on a web site operated by the Michigan Land Use Institute. After reading the article, I took a look at medical facilities and the like in my fake city, De Noc.

    Most of the hospitals have ample parking, with parking garages and parking lots. Most are located close to but not adjacent to retail venues, so pedestrian traffic to and from these hospitals is not a major issue. All hospitals are on DNTS bus lines.

    Himan Hospital in downtown De Noc has parking available in the huge underground lot under most of the central business district. Union Hospital in downtown De Noc has parking available in parking garages that serve both this hospital and the De Noc Convention Center. Both hospitals are served by DNTS transit route stations (nearby) and the De Noc People-Mover (the downtown system). Downtown De Noc's very active retail scene is adjacent to both of these hospitals.

    A newer facility, located in Katie Shores, has some issues. Lake Superior Center For Cancer Research includes the metro's largest hospital, many adjacent clinic and physician buildings, and a couple large parking garages. There is a major retail area located just across Belmont Drive and just across Hassen Avenue.....but no good (and safe) pedestrian access to those stores. DNTS has bus service for The Center but the nearest DNTS monorail station (on the "Brown" line) is a mile away.

    Something I will have to look at.

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  24. #174
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Many hospitals provide transportation to those that cannot drive. That could mitigate some of the transit issues.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  25. #175
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    In the CITIES forum the twins of Minneapolis and St. Paul are discussed, in a thread. Interesting reading for a Bear who drew a fake city that used the Twin Cities as a bit of an inspiration. The comments I have viewed so far are similar to comments that could be made about the fake city of De Noc.

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

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