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Thread: Anti-SUV Sentiment

  1. #1
    Cyburbian Planderella's avatar
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    Anti-SUV Sentiment

    I think this guy has taken his hatred of SUV's a little too far.
    "A witty woman is a treasure, a witty beauty is a power!"

  2. #2
    [sarcasm] Another brilliant move by the Environmental Liberation Front (ELF). Maybe if we keep destroying SUVs, they will stop making them and people will stop driving those evil machines. Oh yeah I understand that when you start a vehicle on fire that the burining fuels, chemicals, rubber, and plastic damage the environment, but that is a small price to pay to ensure that personal choice and freedom is stopped, because we know better than everyone else. We also destroy large homes in sprawling subdivisions because they are evil too. Nevermind that they will get rebuilt and more trees will be cut down to replace the materials we damaged in the fire, because people should live where ELF tells them to, not where they want to.[/sarcasm]
    "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are."

    - Homer Simpson

  3. #3

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    Fundamentalism of any kind is pretty scary.

  4. #4
    Cyburbian the north omaha star's avatar
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    Why doesn't anyone say anything about minivans and large luxury cars. They're just as 'anti-environment' as SUVs.
    I am recognizing that the voice inside my head
    is urging me to be myself but never follow someone else
    Because opinions are like voices we all have a different kind". --Q-Tip

  5. #5
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
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    Very nice Repo Man!

    I feel bascially the way you do about this. I personally don't think most SUVs have any purpose or real utility in most situations.
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    The ends can justify the means.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally posted by the north omaha star
    Why doesn't anyone say anything about minivans and large luxury cars. They're just as 'anti-environment' as SUVs.
    minivans and large luxury cars aren't built on full-size truck frames, SUV's are, and as such, get roughly half the gas mileage of the worst performing minivans and cars.

    Being built on a full-size truck frame also means when t-bones you, you're many times more likely to die than if you're hit by a passneger car, minivan, or even small truck (which is the function SUVs serve). Their much-touted vertical clearance tends to result in the decapitation of drivers of smaller cars in accidents. Now that's something the whole family can love!

    OH! and my tiny hatchback (VW Golf) has more passenger and cargo room than a lot of SUVs, and who's gonig to take their 50k luxury machine out on a two-track. Not a soccer mom, that's for sure!

    That's why station wagons, minivans, and large luxury cars aren't given the same kind of heat that SUVs are...

  7. #7
    Cyburbian jresta's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by MaineMan
    OH! and my tiny hatchback (VW Golf) has more passenger and cargo room than a lot of SUVs, and who's gonig to take their 50k luxury machine out on a two-track. Not a soccer mom, that's for sure!

    That's why station wagons, minivans, and large luxury cars aren't given the same kind of heat that SUVs are...
    the local news was out at gas stations in the area and were showing people filling up their (SUVs mostly) cars and were asking people what they thought of $1.79 for gas. Not a one of them said "i'm going to have to start taking the train" or "i'm going to have to drive less" or even "we need better transit". They all said "it's ridiculous" or "we shouldn't have to pay that much" or "they need to lower the taxes" or they blamed it on OPEC or the oil companies or something like that.

    meanwhile Shell is getting a second look from the justice department for the way they revised their oil forecasts, everyone else is reporting supplies are down, Saudi Arabia is saying they're at full capacity, and the futures are trading at record highs.

    SUVs are a terrible fad and I think people have every right to direct their anger towards people who are wasting a precious resource to show off their wealth or to be trendy.
    Indeed you can usually tell when the concepts of democracy and citizenship are weakening. There is an increase in the role of charity and in the worship of volunteerism. These represent the élite citizen's imitation of noblesse oblige; that is, of pretending to be aristocrats or oligarchs, as opposed to being citizens.

  8. #8
    Cyburbian Rumpy Tunanator's avatar
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    You sure this isn't the work of jordanb.

    Eventually gas prices will be to high to operate these beasts efficently, or we'll be out of oil. I've seen some estimates of oil resources being exhausted by the year 2020.
    A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."


    Neil McCauley (Robert DeNiro): Heat 1995

  9. #9
    Cyburbian jresta's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Rumpy Tunanator
    You sure this isn't the work of jordanb.

    Eventually gas prices will be to high to operate these beasts efficently, or we'll be out of oil. I've seen some estimates of oil resources being exhausted by the year 2020.
    I don't think we'll ever actually run out of the stuff but like i always say -
    once the demand curve and the supply curve cross paths we're in a lot of trouble.
    Some people are saying we're at that point right now. I don't know, maybe we are, but when the cost of moving your vehicle one mile (even if you're driving a toyota hybrid) passes a certain price point i think the market for gas will show just how inelastic it is.

    SUV's are just bringing us closer to that day.
    Indeed you can usually tell when the concepts of democracy and citizenship are weakening. There is an increase in the role of charity and in the worship of volunteerism. These represent the élite citizen's imitation of noblesse oblige; that is, of pretending to be aristocrats or oligarchs, as opposed to being citizens.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally posted by jresta
    SUVs are a terrible fad and I think people have every right to direct their anger towards people who are wasting a precious resource to show off their wealth or to be trendy.
    Then I have the right to direct my anger at people who think that the only reason people buy SUVs is to show off their wealth or to be trendy. Considering that SUVs have been getting more and more popular, it is hardly a fad. These people are not buying SUVs with the thinking "Hey lets see how much fuel I can gobble up!" They buy them because they fit their tastes and lifestyle. My parents have 2 SUVs, one small Kia and one Ford Explorer. They are not wealthy nor are the trendy, they bought SUVs because they are the vehicles that suit their needs.

    If the gov't would impose tougher fuel standards, SUVs would become more fuel efficient but there is no incentive for car companies to spend the money to improve the fuel economy.
    "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are."

    - Homer Simpson

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Seabishop's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Repo Man
    Then I have the right to direct my anger at people who think that the only reason people buy SUVs is to show off their wealth or to be trendy. Considering that SUVs have been getting more and more popular, it is hardly a fad. These people are not buying SUVs with the thinking "Hey lets see how much fuel I can gobble up!" They buy them because they fit their tastes and lifestyle. My parents have 2 SUVs, one small Kia and one Ford Explorer. They are not wealthy nor are the trendy, they bought SUVs because they are the vehicles that suit their needs.

    If the gov't would impose tougher fuel standards, SUVs would become more fuel efficient but there is no incentive for car companies to spend the money to improve the fuel economy.
    Amen. Blame the government for not imposing tougher standards, not the people who buy the cars. I mean, I might think a guy is stupid for buying a gas guzzling Yukon but I'm not going to burn it on him. There is also a difference among SUV's more and more of them are car-based and don't gobble as much gas as the monsters. The Toyota Highlander is going to be a hybrid next year. There really isn't any difference between the more sensible SUV's and a minivan.

  12. #12

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    Actually, in inflation-adjusted terms, isn't the price of gas in the United States the third or fourth lowest price ever? Someone, somewhere did a chart. I thought it was....jordanb? that showed how little gas costs.

    A person driving a Kia is not "showing off," but the Kia is probably not the most "rational" choice, either. Its probaly not as safe as a regular sedan, probably has less usable indoor room, and probably still suffers from the instability problem associated with a high center of gravity vehicle.

    Then again, my inefficient Subaru is hardly rational, either. My sister, who drives a diesel Golf, can get away with SUV-bashing a little better than I can. Still, I have to admit to a feeling of irritation when I get behind a gigantic Toyota Land Bruiser or one of those utterly ridiculous Hummer H2s.

  13. #13
    Cyburbian ludes98's avatar
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    I only get 13mpg but it isn't an SUV. Light trucks, which includes full size, aren't any better for fuel economy. I am thinking about getting a MINI for a daily driver and keeping the truck for hauling loads and towing.

  14. #14
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    I think good fuel economy is a worthy subject for government regulation. Safety (e.g. putting bumpers at the right height) is also a reasonable regulation.

    That being said, I would support the auto industry in making as big or small a vehicle as they can - with a corporate average fuel economy increasing 3-5 mpg a year until it hits 45-50 mpg - and bumpers designed to give VW's a chance in a collision. Clever engineers may be able to deliver 40 mpg behemoths, so we can carry the same loads as current SUVs and impress our neighbors with the sheer bulk of our personal transport. If so, more power to them, their profitability, and the gullibility of the consuming public. If not, they will certainly change their advertising approach to convince us that smaller cars are the status symbols that SUVs have become.

    It is prudent to set high mileage standards so that our children and grandchildren will have an abundant life. This is an unfortunate time when the American society is living pretty high and passing the bills on to future generations. As we fight for the right to drive an 11 mpg vehicle, we should remember that each mile driven at that pitiful efficiency is diminishing the resources that will be available to our own children.

    Planning is looking to the future. For many of us, the "future" is life as it was in 1990, not what we should be planning for in 2020.

  15. #15
    Corn Burning Fool giff57's avatar
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    I'm not worried about running out of oil. As oil gets more scarce and more expensive, renewable fuels like ethanol and soy diesel will become affordable. Ethanol plants are springing up like weeds out here in the corn belt. My car will run on E85, as most of the new ones do. We have an unlimited supply of fuel, it is just more expensive than oil. Yes I have heard the ethanol/energy arguement. The studies I have seen ignore the useful by-products of the ethanol production.
    “As soon as public service ceases to be the chief business of the citizens, and they would rather serve with their money than with their persons, the State is not far from its fall”
    Jean-Jacques Rousseau

  16. #16
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    I'm not worried about running out of oil either. Pricing will take care of that. After the last oil crisis, the average gas mileage of cars doubled. At first the cars were small and unexciting. Now, there are 25 mpg cars that are amazing - goodly sized, lots of amenities, and good performance. Oil is the basic energy source for the world economy. It is a finite resource. We can conserve and it will last longer. We can waste it in Hummers, and we will have that resource a lot shorter period. My point is that we can have good cars, not puny, and exceedingly good mileage - if we say that's what industry must produce. We won't get them if we don't tell industry to produce them.

  17. #17
    Corn Burning Fool giff57's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wulf9
    My point is that we can have good cars, not puny, and exceedingly good mileage - if we say that's what industry must produce. We won't get them if we don't tell industry to produce them.
    The industry will produce what the consumer demands, and right now most consumers are not demanding better mileage. It goes back to someones post that gas isn't that expensive in real dollars yet. When it does, or like in the late 70's supplies get very short, we will see movement away from the guzzlers. I don't think regulation is the answer.
    “As soon as public service ceases to be the chief business of the citizens, and they would rather serve with their money than with their persons, the State is not far from its fall”
    Jean-Jacques Rousseau

  18. #18
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by giff57
    The industry will produce what the consumer demands, and right now most consumers are not demanding better mileage. It goes back to someones post that gas isn't that expensive in real dollars yet. When it does, or like in the late 70's supplies get very short, we will see movement away from the guzzlers. I don't think regulation is the answer.
    Actually, our current (twice 1970's) mileage is the result of regulations - Corporate Average Fuel Economy legislation passed after the 70's gas crises. I like it as a model because it sets a performance standard, then lets the market control after that (The fleet of cars must get 24 mpg, rather than every car must get 24 mpg).

    Considering that the supply of oil comes from other countries and is essential to our economy and transportation network, it is a proper subject of regulation for national security and economy.

    Also remember that oil is used for things other than cars. It's a lot harder to retrofit a house for heating and air conditioning or to change an electric plant from gas to oil than it is to raise the mileage bar for automobiles.

  19. #19
          freewaytincan's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mendelman
    I feel bascially the way you do about this. I personally don't think most SUVs have any purpose or real utility in most situations.


    But there are some. The fact is, the majority of truck/van/SUV drivers do not need that kind of vehicle (if any), as in most cases, a coupe or sedan would be more than adequate. The main problem with these people is that a) they have egos to satisfy, and b) they are told by advertising, our culture, and just about everything else that they "have to have one". Of course, this is not the case for a very small minority of SUV owners. I am sympathetic to their plight, as I personally believe that trucks and SUV's are very useful in certain situations.

    Take my brother, for instance. He lives on a few acres just outside the city limits of Huntsville, Texas, in a great house of which the original part is over a hundred years old. He does not have a very good driveway, because it's mostly rocks, has lots of holes, and when it rains - as it often does in Southeast Texas - there is a ton of mud. To make matters worse, when people come to visit him when it's wet, on occasion, their car will get stuck, but no worries! That SUV ('98 Pathfinder...practically new) does just what it was meant to do. Furthermore, he does do quite a bit of social things with the people in Huntsville, specifically Chi Alpha Christian Fellowship, and if you know the SHSU campus, you know that parking space is already scarce, and at least a halfway decent space is practically impossible to get, because if you get it, you don't want to leave it. Most importantly, my brother has a band ( http://www.twinkieenigma.com ), and his vehicle is the only one that is the best for the job of hauling the massive amount of equipment necessary (out of a pickup, a tiny jeep, and a massive van that hardly runs...it is amusing, though) safely and securely.

    I guess the thing that bothers me the most about the SUV craze that has been on for over ten years now is that in the advertisements for the vehicles, it is always shown performing some task that it was first designed for, and is still built for (with the exception of the bastardized "Hummer" H2. Don't even get me started on how GM has pussified that formerly fine military machine), yet most people are not construction workers, industrial employees, carpenters, or farmers, nor do they live way out there (like my brother).

    I am asking all of you to recognize the importance of heavy duty vehicles like SUV's, trucks, and vans. Please understand that I am not defending the huge numbers of them on the road for the wrong reasons, but on the same token, I am even more against the fools that claim they are "doing what's best in the interests of our planet". Both these groups are wrong in what they do, and unfortunately, a great vehicle has taken all the hits for it.



    Incidentally, now that my car is confirmed as totaled, I will start hitting the local dealerships, and looking into the Honda Civic Hybrid (and if I don't like that, I'll probably get a Nissan Sentra). Granted, the main reason I'm getting it is because I'm cheap (hey, if I'm going to spend that much on gas, at least I should have fun with it, like setting ant piles aflame and whatnot!), but I also don't want another medium-large vehicle like the sedan I wrecked last weekend. It's just unecessary. Isn't it good to know that there is a seventeen-year-old (soon to be former-) "suburbanite" that is this responsible?

  20. #20
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    Prolly sound like a broken record. CAFE (even if raised to 35-50 mpg) allows for big vehicles for those who need them. It's a modified market based requirement, so the market can provide big vehicles. With dedicated engineering, it might also provide for big vehicles at 35-50 mpg. That's what happened when CAFE was introduced. Large, high performance cars went from 10 to 25 mpg.

  21. #21
    Cyburbian ChevyChaseDC's avatar
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    I think CAFE standards, and other U.S. regulations for automobiles are a joke in their current form.

    I would first close the tax loophole that allows for giant deductions when buying heavy vehicles for "business". This had been meant for commerical vehicles - e.g., contractors, farmers, etc., but also applies to a pediatrician's office buying a Hummer H2.

    Second, the gas-guzzler tax does not currently apply to passenger vehicles over a certain weight. It certainly ought to.

    Third, the vehicle classification scheme is currently designed to help the industry meet CAFE standards, and does not reflect the true function or specification of many passenger vehicles. "Light Trucks" include everything from the obvious Ford F-150, to car-based, front wheel drive "crossover" SUV's like the Toyota Highlander, to the small Chrysler PT Cruiser. Personally, I think all personal-use vehicles that are designed to carry passengers should be subject to uniform standards for pollution control and fuel economy - every vehicle from the smallest Hyundai Accent to the behemoth Cadillac Escalade EXT.

    Fourth, given that all passenger vehicles may one day no longer fall under two separate categories (passenger cars and light trucks), there ought to be graduated tax incentives for purchasing fuel efficient vehicles, as well as disincentives for gas-guzzlers, at the time of purchase. Currently, someone buying a Hummer H2 will pay no gas-guzzler tax, which is not an insignificant amount of money, while someone buying a Mercedes-Benz S55 AMG, which is equally ostentatious yet less polluting and safer, will pay thousands of dollars.

    We must realize that the increased price of gasoline, which is expected to average at over $2.00/gallon this summer, is not an artificially high price to pay, since the true cost of driving is not reflected in the price of gasoline. No wonder so few Americans consider fuel economy when purchasing a vehicle.

  22. #22
    Cyburbian FueledByRamen's avatar
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    At least people arent blaming high performance cars anymore. My friend has a 2000 Z28 with 330 horsepower and can get 30 mpg.

    My V6 Firbird with 200 hp can only get 28 mpg!

    Personally, Im just afraid of SUVs. It seems like the only people that drive them are idiots on cell phones not paying attention to what they are doing. Get run off the road by them a few times and most people can relate. Maybe its just my fault for driving such a small car B-)

    Oh BTW, Im all for having an annual or semi annual driving test no matter what your age is.

  23. #23
          freewaytincan's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by FueledByRamen
    Oh BTW, Im all for having an annual or semi annual driving test no matter what your age is.
    Dallas would have about ten legal drivers.

  24. #24
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ChevyChaseDC
    I think CAFE standards, and other U.S. regulations for automobiles are a joke in their current form.
    CAFE needs to be fixed (requires political backbone). But CAFE is the reason the overall fleet nearly doubled mileage in the past 30 years.

    The good thing about CAFE is that it allows high performance cars, big cars, SUVs and the like. Part of that comes from engineering. Part of that comes from allowing some guzzlers as long as the whole fleet has acceptable mileage.

  25. #25
    Cyburbian FueledByRamen's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by freewaytincan
    Dallas would have about ten legal drivers.

    Yeah and no one in Houston would even be allowed to look at cars, thank God.

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