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Thread: Two Story Big Box

  1. #1
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Two Story Big Box

    I just saw in a meeting a picture of a two-story Target store in Maryland. How common is this? Any photos? Just thought I'd ask the gallery.
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    Last edited by zman; 25 May 2004 at 7:01 PM. Reason: adding something

  2. #2
    Cyburbian H's avatar
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    I have seen one in ATL and MIA where Target is on the second floor. In MIA Best Buys & Micheals is on the first and in the ATL I think Galyans (sp?) sports store is on the first.

  3. #3
    Target recently expanded the store here to about 108,000 sq. ft. from 80,000. Their real estate people considered going two stories because of site limitations, but they chose to stay one-storey. So, yeah, they do have a two-storey model, but I think it is an exception rather than anything they prefer to do.

    BTW: Target is just a whole lot easier to deal with than other big boxes, IMO.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally posted by H
    I have seen one in ATL and MIA where Target is on the second floor. In MIA Best Buys & Micheals is on the first and in the ATL I think Galyans (sp?) sports store is on the first.
    Actually the Target covers both stories at the Lenox area store. Galyan's is next to them connected by the parking deck. They have both elevators and escalators. This isn't the first Big Box in Atlanta to go to two stories. The Kmart at Broadview/Lindbergh Plaza had a similar configuration.

  5. #5
    Cyburbian ChevyChaseDC's avatar
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    Here is the Target in Gaithersburg, MD to which you refer:





    The ped. bridge leads to the parking deck, off to the left. The Washingtonian Center, where this photo is, is a "lifestyle center."



    I'm not a fan of Washingtonian (locals call it "Rio") or lifestyle centers in general. They're 'urban-lite' - trying to accomodate both cars and people makes it succeed in accomodating neither very well.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    There are a *ton* of them here.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally posted by Gedunker
    Target recently expanded the store here to about 108,000 sq. ft. from 80,000. Their real estate people considered going two stories because of site limitations, but they chose to stay one-storey. So, yeah, they do have a two-storey model, but I think it is an exception rather than anything they prefer to do.

    BTW: Target is just a whole lot easier to deal with than other big boxes, IMO.
    Target seems to be willing to mutate their standard model in Atlanta as does CVS Pharmacy. I've got many reservations about the national chains. Even the pre-Big Box department stores would routinely make decisions from a central headquarters which would have terrible impacts at the local level. But that being said, the big chains are realistically how retail goods are being distributed in the U.S. now, so rewarding those chains willing to accomodate good design and punishing those who won't strikes me as a good policy.

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    Cyburbian SGB's avatar
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    [sarcasm]
    I've got a meeting today with a developer for a proposed greenfield HD big box in a town w/ no zoning code.

    Two stories - yeah, that's the ticket!
    [/sarcasm]
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  9. #9
    Cyburbian Seabishop's avatar
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    How do they handle shopping carts? Are the elevators extra large? The only 2 story department store with shopping carts I've seen was the country's first discount department store in an old mill. An employee would put your carriage on a conveyor belt up to the second floor while you took the stairs.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian H's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Larry Felton Johnson
    Actually the Target covers both stories at the Lenox area store. Galyan's is next to them connected by the parking deck. They have both elevators and escalators. This isn't the first Big Box in Atlanta to go to two stories. The Kmart at Broadview/Lindbergh Plaza had a similar configuration.
    Thanks for clearing that up. It has been a while since I have visited that Target. When I am home (family home) I try my best not to go shopping. Although I got my wife a bike at that Galyan's last Chirstmas, that is a nice store and a nice complex. I am from that area of town and have really seen it grow 'up'...literally.

    As you probably know, that is (approx.) where the road race starts and every year the landscape is new. I like the Lenox development style, very hip.

    I do however visit the MIA Target on a regular basis, and it only covers the second floor of the complex, Dadeland Station. That complex is 3 levels with 6 Big-Boxes (two on each floor) and half of the complex is a parking deck.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian solarstar's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Seabishop
    How do they handle shopping carts? Are the elevators extra large? The only 2 story department store with shopping carts I've seen was the country's first discount department store in an old mill. An employee would put your carriage on a conveyor belt up to the second floor while you took the stairs.

    There's a 2-story Target in New Orleans (Jefferson Parish, actually). They have a cart escalator where you put the cart on it and then you ride on a "people" escalator next to it. The elevators are also extra large - you could probably put 3 carts in it lengthwise and widthwise easily. The Target is connected to a multi-story parking garage and a shopping mall, but it appears to be an afterthought of the mall itself.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian jresta's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Seabishop
    How do they handle shopping carts? Are the elevators extra large? The only 2 story department store with shopping carts I've seen was the country's first discount department store in an old mill. An employee would put your carriage on a conveyor belt up to the second floor while you took the stairs.
    My grocery store has elevators because it has two levels of parking above it. Each of the two elevators can comfortably handle 4 shopping carts.
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    Cyburbian the north omaha star's avatar
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    How do they handle shopping carts? Are the elevators extra large? The only 2 story department store with shopping carts I've seen was the country's first discount department store in an old mill. An employee would put your carriage on a conveyor belt up to the second floor while you took the stairs.


    There's an 'escalator' type of equipment for shopping carts only adjacent to the escalators. I've seen this in a Super K-Mart in Los Angeles.
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  14. #14
    Cyburbian The One's avatar
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    Target

    Target has a very nice store in Deerfield Beach Florida that has a two floor layout. Of course, they have to put all of the interesting stuff on the second floor to attract people upstairs. By the way, the carts fit into a special escalator (two way) and there are two large elevators. I really like the store and it does make sense where land costs are absurd. There is also a two level Home Depot in Ft. Lauderdale that was jammed onto a small site (Almost zero setbacks from the sidewalks on a corner site). Haven't visited yet because traffic is so bad in the area.....

  15. #15
    Cyburbian Planderella's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by solarstar
    There's a 2-story Target in New Orleans (Jefferson Parish, actually). They have a cart escalator where you put the cart on it and then you ride on a "people" escalator next to it. The elevators are also extra large - you could probably put 3 carts in it lengthwise and widthwise easily. The Target is connected to a multi-story parking garage and a shopping mall, but it appears to be an afterthought of the mall itself.
    Keep in mind that that particular Target was retrofitted from a previous department store that was already two-story with elevators, escalators and that existing parking garage. It was a no-brainer for Target to use that particular space, especially since vacant land is incredibly scarce to practically non-existent in East Jefferson Parish.

    Here's a picture that I took a few years ago of the two-story Target in Atlanta.

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  16. #16
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Minneapolis: Home of Target

    I've been to their flagship store in Minneapolis, it is located near the Target Center and the Marshal Field (used to be Dayton's Department Store, back before they morphed the company from the Dayton-Hudson Company to Target Corp). The store is interconnected through skywalks with the rest of the downtown, is two stories with offices above.

    Both large elavators and special shopping cart escalators are provided to get shoppers from one floor to the other. It is interesting in the fact that registers are on two floors; the street level and skywalk level. The grocery type items are on the first floor, I assume to be convienent for those who use transit. Kmart employed a similar strategy when they built their stores in Downtown Philly and Manhattan.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian chasqui's avatar
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    Escalators

    I was in a 2-story supermarket in Lima, Peru recently. They used an "inclined people mover" instead of an escalator or elevator. You and your cart can ride together. The trick they used is that the cart wheels are designed to lock if they are on an incline. Very neat trick especially because the design is inexpensive and elegant. The wheels, instead of being solid, are a series of rubber disks that deform on the incline. The carts do not roll away on the incline - loaded or empty.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian martini's avatar
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    The MPLS downtown Target is multistory too. And a really nice example at that. Others in the Mpls area are the new Ikea store by the Mall of America, and of course the mall anchor sotres are at least 3 stroies.
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  19. #19
    Cyburbian Masswich's avatar
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    IKEA's are always two stories (I think there are a couple that are 3) but that partially because they are so huge that the cost of going up to a second (half) story is worth it vs. the cost of land.

    Also, IKEA has started to do a lot of structured parking, I think for the same reason. When your store is 10 acres alone, I guess it pays to stack it.

  20. #20
         
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    Quote Originally posted by Masswich
    IKEA's are always two stories (I think there are a couple that are 3) but that partially because they are so huge that the cost of going up to a second (half) story is worth it vs. the cost of land.

    Also, IKEA has started to do a lot of structured parking, I think for the same reason. When your store is 10 acres alone, I guess it pays to stack it.
    My local IKEA store is one-story, and uses up about a dozen city-sized street blocks East-West, four or five North-South.


    This is a drawing of the Target center we have in our area. It's three or four stories, with a Best Buy and some other lower-key stores in it, and a large parking garage inside.


    A photo of it. It's built across from a huge mall, in a residential neighbourhood.

  21. #21
    Cirrus's avatar
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    This rendering shows a 4 block infill area currently under construction, not the part of the project with Target (that is to the right across the pedestrian bridge over the lake).

    ... But I don't know that I would call Washingtonian a lifestyle center. There is no single property owner, no master plan for the whole site, and it has been slowly evolving for 20 years as opposed to having been constructed all at once. It's just good zoning, albeit in a suburb.


  22. #22

    Funny Story

    Quote Originally posted by jresta
    My grocery store has elevators because it has two levels of parking above it. Each of the two elevators can comfortably handle 4 shopping carts.

    Wow its nice to see that Whole Foods can bend over for the greater good of design. It seems that they are able to do a two story development with non-surface parking. Last Summer when I worked for the City of Arlington Heights, Illinois (northwest suburb of Chicago); Whole Foods was looking to move into a square block of downtown. One of the last blocks to be "underdeveloped" as the planning office would say. We wanted to see them do either underground or a hybrid elevated parking or above store parking design. They were so insistent upon the fact that knowbody would shop there because it was two stories or that parking and gettting your buggy to your car would be difficult. Wonder if they are thinking differently now and have moved into downtown Arlington Heights? How old is the store in your picture?

  23. #23
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by salomondesignboarder
    Wow its nice to see that Whole Foods can bend over for the greater good of design. It seems that they are able to do a two story development with non-surface parking. Last Summer when I worked for the City of Arlington Heights, Illinois (northwest suburb of Chicago); Whole Foods was looking to move into a square block of downtown. One of the last blocks to be "underdeveloped" as the planning office would say. We wanted to see them do either underground or a hybrid elevated parking or above store parking design. They were so insistent upon the fact that knowbody would shop there because it was two stories or that parking and gettting your buggy to your car would be difficult. Wonder if they are thinking differently now and have moved into downtown Arlington Heights? How old is the store in your picture?
    Given the weather in Arlington Heights, I would think that the underground parking would be an attractive option, protecting their customers from snow, cold, rain, and other bad weather. I see the pictured store is not two stories, but a one-story store with parking above. That is an important distinction over, say, a Kohls which may be split up on two levels.
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    Quote Originally posted by salomondesignboarder
    Wow its nice to see that Whole Foods can bend over for the greater good of design. It seems that they are able to do a two story development with non-surface parking. Last Summer when I worked for the City of Arlington Heights, Illinois (northwest suburb of Chicago); Whole Foods was looking to move into a square block of downtown. One of the last blocks to be "underdeveloped" as the planning office would say. We wanted to see them do either underground or a hybrid elevated parking or above store parking design. They were so insistent upon the fact that knowbody would shop there because it was two stories or that parking and gettting your buggy to your car would be difficult. Wonder if they are thinking differently now and have moved into downtown Arlington Heights? How old is the store in your picture?
    The Whole Foods in another Chicago suburb, Evanston, has parking on its rooftop, accessible to the store by an enclosed stairwell and elevator. But then downtown Evanston also has a wealth of pedestrian activity as it connects seamlessly with the campus of Northwestern University. Arlington Heights, on the other hand, is a middle/upper-class commuter suburb. While its downtown has undergone a significant building boom in recent years--plenty of high-rise condos within walking distance of the Metra rail line--its new retail developments have plenty of adjacent surface parking. In fact, several of the new stores, including yuppie magnets like Ann Taylor, butt up to the sidewalks with their front doors facing enclosed plazas and parking. As ChevyChaseDC aptly tagged it, "urban lite."

  25. #25
    Cyburbian nerudite's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by loub3000
    My local IKEA store is one-story, and uses up about a dozen city-sized street blocks East-West, four or five North-South.
    The Seattle (Tukwila?) store is one of the first in the States and follows the old model. The newer stores are multistory (with elevators for carts). Multistory grocery stores are common in Europe. I remember quite a few in Prague (with escalators that handle both cart/shopper). There is one Meinle store that has an entrance in a public square and then the whole grocery store goes underground. I thought that was pretty cool.

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