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Thread: Shouldn't there be consequences for not following the rules?

  1. #1
    Cyburbian Joe Iliff's avatar
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    Shouldn't there be consequences for not following the rules?

    Ok, so Paul Hamm of the USA wins the gold medal by a very slim margin in the Men's All Around Gymnastics. Now it seems there's all this controversy. I'll posit a question, but first the facts as I understand them:

    1. There was a mistake in judging the parallel bars performance of a South Korean gymnast. If scored properly, he would have won the gold, but he ended up with the bronze.
    2. The rules state that if you want to protest or appeal a score, you do it after the score is given before moving on to another apparatus (or before the medals are awarded if it's the last apparatus, I assume). The South Koreans didn't protest until the next day.
    3. The rules also state that the gymnastics governing body can't review videotape in considering an appeal, which they did. (I'm not sure why they were even considering the appeal since it wasn't issued within the required time.)

    Ok, so Paul follows the rules and wins. Yet, the South Koreans and the Federation are getting all this press and attention. They're not changing the results (which seems appropriate) but Paul is being asked to give up his gold to the other guy. He followed the rules while everyone else is breaking them (or ignoring them), yet he seems to be "attacked" publicly for not doing "the right thing" in the minds of some people.

    So, am I right that the South Koreans seem to be rewarded (by convincing some people that they deserved to win) by breaking the rules? Shouldn't there be negative consequences for breaking the rules, not positive ones? If breaking the rules is a net positive for someone, why have the rule at all?

    Why the gymnastics people seemed to break their own rules I have no idea. It just makes them look dumb and makes their future actions more open to suspicion.

    Thoughts?
    JOE ILIFF
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  2. #2
    Technically, Paul Hamm won the medal, but I can help but think that if I were in Pauls position I would feel like the gold was not really mine. How could you not? He did follow the rules and the judges are the ones who screwed up, but the fact is that the S. Korean should have won the gold (of course the S. Koreans should have protested under the guidelines allowed under Olympic rules) However I guess I agree with what Hamm is saying when he compares it to a bad call in a football game or a baseball game. It is something that the players cannot control, so it shouldn't taint the victory.

    With that being said, do I really care either way? Not really. They could cancel the Olympics and I probably wouldn't even notice. Is it football season yet
    "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are."

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  3. #3
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    It was my understanding that the Olympic body isn't reviewing it, but the Koreans are appealing to somebody that doesn't even appear to have jurisdiction to try to get it overturned. I agree that they're not acting sportsmanlike at all. The videotape stuff is all being done by the media, who have latched onto it like the blood-sucking vultures they are.

  4. #4
    Cyburbian Joe Iliff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Repo Man
    It is something that the players cannot control, so it shouldn't taint the victory.
    Well, actually, the South Koreans COULD have controled it, fixing the problem, and either didn't care to or dropped the ball.

    It would be more analagous to an NFL coach having an opportunity to challenge an official's call (invoking instant replay) and declining to do so, and then after the game is over claiming the decision should be reversed. The rule has the effect of "appeal it now or accept the result". The SK's didn't appeal, and aren't accepting the result.
    JOE ILIFF
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    Martin Luther King, Jr.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally posted by jordanb
    The videotape stuff is all being done by the media, who have latched onto it like the blood-sucking vultures they are.
    That is an insult of the highest order to all the vulture species across the southwest and the world. At least vultures serve a purpose. (They remove the stinking flesh off of carcasses in the road and contribute to recylcling in the food chain). That's more than the mainstream media can say.

    I think lamprey would be a more appropriate word.
    Last edited by Super Amputee Cat; 23 Aug 2004 at 4:03 PM.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Rules are rules... stick with them or drop them. I think that if he want's to give up his gold, it should be a personal choice. He won it within the rules of the games, and now someone is trying to change that.
    Trusting a DC politician with your money is like trusting a hungry dog with a raw steak.

  7. #7
    Cyburbian The One's avatar
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    Hijack....

    Sorry to hijack :d: this thread.....but....
    Does anyone know if the horses in the equestrian events get the medal? or at least "a medal?" or, do they just get shipped off to the glue factory? And, did you hear about the guy that shot the wrong target in the shooting competition....to loose the gold ....ouch....
    "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
    John Kenneth Galbraith

  8. #8
    Cyburbian GeogPlanner's avatar
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    It would be the right thing to do...give the medal to the Koreans. I appreciate the football analogy and after tossing it around in my head...we are not talking about football. Gymnastics and other sports have a different set of ettiquite. In football, we do touchdown dances...in gymnastics, you get a penalty for warming up in the wrong spot. I was on the side of the Koreans at first, then after the football explanation was on Hamm's side...but now after full consideration...the right thing to do is to give the medal to the Koreans.

    ...but it is American to pout and not do the right thing...
    Information necessitating a change of design will be conveyed to the designer after and only after the design is complete. (Often called the 'Now They Tell Us' Law) - Fyfe's First Law of Revision

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  9. #9
    Cyburbian Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    I'm wondering if there is anything in the Olympic rules that permits the athlete to give back his medal and have it awarded to another competitor. It's possible that Hamm couldn't give it back even if he wanted to.

    Anybody know the answer to this one?

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Habanero's avatar
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    Great article from SI

    "Yes, the videotape of the parallel bars showed the judges erred by assigning a 9.9 start value. But it showed something else, too. In the course of his routine, Yang had four holds on the bar, when the rules allow for a maximum of three. The deduction for that mistake? Two-tenths of a point.

    The judges missed it."
    When Jesus said "love your enemies", he probably didn't mean kill them.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    The Judging in that sport is also somewhat subjective. Far more so than the margin of error that seperates the two contestents. So my suggestion is that the Koreans piss off and leave the olympics having learned a valuable lesson. Keep the medal dude.


    PS - Screw the press.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian Joe Iliff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by GeogPlanner
    . . . but now after full consideration...the right thing to do is to give the medal to the Koreans.
    You're far more generous than I am about this. They broke the rules and you'd still give them the medal you earned without breaking the rules? Why penalize the guy who followed the rules and reward the guy who didn't?
    JOE ILIFF
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  13. #13
    Cyburbian GeogPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Joe Iliff
    You're far more generous than I am about this. They broke the rules and you'd still give them the medal you earned without breaking the rules? Why penalize the guy who followed the rules and reward the guy who didn't?
    See...this is why the media is evil...I don't like instant replay in the NFL and I don't like it here. If we rolled the tape back on every event, we would find one the judges missed many times. From the Olympics to the elections...the media causes a mess.

    Again...I say it is the RIGHT thing to do. It's about sportsmanship. Score for score when judged on the same level, Hamm isn't golden. Has anyone replayed Hamm's routine to search out a mistake?
    Information necessitating a change of design will be conveyed to the designer after and only after the design is complete. (Often called the 'Now They Tell Us' Law) - Fyfe's First Law of Revision

    We don't believe in planners and deciders making the decisions on behalf of Americans. -- George W. Bush , Scranton, PA -- 09/06/2000

  14. #14
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    GeorgPlanner -- The point that Joe is trying to make is that the Koreans had available to them an appeals process and they did not use it. Then they pulled out the video tapes and started crying foul. They knew the rules before competing: if you have a complaint about the judging you must raise it before the end of that rotation. They ignored that rule and waited a full day after the match was over to bring it up.

    The two tenths deduction Habanero posted was discovered in the same tape that the Koreans have held up as proof that they should have won, and it just goes to illustrate why it's important to call the match "over" when it's over. When the medals are handed out and the anthem is playing, everything is final. Anything discovered after that point is immaterial.

    I think you might not understand exactly what happened:

    The Korean was misjudged with a slightly lower score than he would have had on one of his routines. He didn't protest it when the rules said he could. The American then won the event with a slightly higher score than him, and was awarded the gold medal. Then, the day after the competition, the Koreans took the video tape of the event and held it up as evidence that their guy was misjudged. That was the first time anyone mentioned the judging. The Koreans now want the gold medal to be stripped from the American and given to their guy.

  15. #15
    Cyburbian Joe Iliff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jordanb
    The Koreans now want the gold medal to be stripped from the American and given to their guy.
    Although the latest is that they are only asking for their guy to share the gold medal with Paul Hamm, having the olympics award dual gold medals they way they did for those canadian skaters.

    Still, they had their chance to file a legitimate complaint and passed. Too late is too late.

    Am I crazy to want to write rules like this:

    1. An appeal of or protest to a posted score must be made before the athlete begins the next apparatus, or for the final appartus, before the final scores are certified by the chief official.
    2. Any appeal or protest not made within the required time will be ignored by the officials and treated as if it was not made.
    3. A failure of a team or individual to appeal or protest a score shall be considered as an acceptance of the score as correct.
    4. Any team which files an appeal/protest after the appropriate time has passed may be subject to diciplinary action, including disqualification from the event. Any team which publicly challenges the certified results as incorrect or inappropriate risks having future appeals go unanswered by officials without regard to merit.
    5. Any appeal or protest based on evidence not available at the time the score is calculated and posted must be initiated by the governing body. The governing body shall have final say on the initiation and conclusion of all such protests.
    6. All parties are responsible for knowing and complying with these rules. Failure to do so can result in future disqualification at the discretion of the governing body.
    JOE ILIFF
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    Debt is normal . . . Be weird!
    Dave Ramsey

    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think."
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

  16. #16
    Cyburbian Joe Iliff's avatar
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    Just for an update, the international gymnastics people are now asking that Hamm voluntarily give the medal to the south korean. If the gymnastics federation doesn't have the gralls to change the result, then they shouldn't be pontificating on what would be the right thing for others to do. They've got no credibility to be telling Hamm what's "right" under the circumstances. (They give Paul the medal, they claim then and now that they were right to do so, but that he should voluntarily give it up. How does that work? You were right to give it to him but he was wrong to accept it?)

    I feel bad for Hamm and all gymnasts. This just makes the internation competition in the sport look meaningless.

    Hey, Paul, wear that medal with pride. You earned it!
    JOE ILIFF
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    Debt is normal . . . Be weird!
    Dave Ramsey

    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think."
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian Coragus's avatar
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    Hamm's case is similar to USC's former wide receiver Mike Williams, except that the gymnastics rules say he gets to keep his gold medal while the NCAA rules say that Mike Williams doesn't get to play college football this year.

    To the Koreans, I say the same thing that I say to Williams: "If you're going to play a sport at that high of a level, know your rules better. Sorry, you lose!"

  18. #18
    Cyburbian
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    The chair of the IOC was on NBC last night. They have no intent to review the results. The Canadian example was brought up and he said in the skating we had a judge who basically took a pay off to vote in a particular fashion. This was not a human mistake but an outright calculated attempt to fix the results before the competition began. In the gymnastics he said we had basically human error. He compared it to soccer and the referee blowing a whistle to stop play because he saw an infraction. If it turned out after the game he was mistaken you do not go back and replay the game or change the results of the game.

    If there were any example similar to the skating competition it would be the forcing of the Canadian judge to change his score for the Russian gymnast on the high bar during the individual apparatus competition. Of course this adversely impact Paul Hamm by having a crowd booing the judging while he competed on this apparatus, but he is not out there saying he should be allowed a second try on the high bar for the individuall gold..
    Planning is much like acting, as my old theater professor used to say, "If you sin, sin boldly, only you know if you are ad libbing." I follow this adage almost daily.

  19. #19
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    This is why I like the track & field, swimming, rowing events much better. You race against others and you either win or lose. There's none of this subjective bull****. Of course, DQ judges can still screw that up like what almost happened to that one American swimmer!

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

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