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Poll results: Is the suppression campign by John Kerry of the S.B.V.T. wrong?

Voters
22. You may not vote on this poll
  • No, the ends justify the means.

    2 9.09%
  • No, normally I'd be upset but hey this is politics.

    6 27.27%
  • I don't know - I'm an uniformed citizen who fears decisions.

    3 13.64%
  • Yes, even if the SBVT's are full of crap what Kerry did is unAmerican.

    3 13.64%
  • Yes, it is wrong and Kerry likely was the pompus ass medal hunter they portray him as.

    2 9.09%
  • Now for something completely different...

    6 27.27%
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Thread: So, where is the outrage? (AKA: el Guapo trolls for liberals)

  1. #1
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    So, where is the outrage? (AKA: el Guapo trolls for liberals)

    [Trolling]
    Fact: John Kerry attempted to use his lawyers to stifle the distribution of a book critical of his service in Viet Nam.

    Fact: John Kerry attempted to use his lawyers to stifle the distribution of a television commercial critical of his service in Viet Nam

    Fact: John Kerry used Max Cleland like a Bangkok Whore to deliver a letter to President Bush's Crawford Texas Ranch demanding he tell the Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth to withdrawal their ads.

    Fact: If it could be demonstrated in a court of law that George W Bush had the power to control the Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth he would be guilty of Federal Election Violations and criminally liable.

    Fact: Nobody here said **** about this issue, which if it were reversed you would have been all over it. That makes the Cyburbianistas a big ol bunch of Hypocrites.

    So, did you hear that a Presidential candidate was trying to bully book sellers in to yanking a book from their shelves and do nothing? Where is the outrage my liberal friends of free speech?

    I waited until it looked like this issue would slide under the table without comment here on Cyburbia. As it has. I'm beginning to think that some people here only find their moral center when it suits their political agenda, perhaps you'd like to take a moment and post here on the reason you have a lack of concern on the attempt of a potential president to stifle some people's First Amendment rights?

    Cat got your collective liberal tongues?

    [/Trolling]

  2. #2
    Forums Administrator & Gallery Moderator NHPlanner's avatar
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    Fact #1: I pay little attention to the bickering between campaigns and the advertising that is all over the place for the presidential election. EG's post is the first I've even heard of the book. Advertising doesn't influence my voting.....platforms and proposals do.

    Fact #2: I try to keep my political leanings to myself, other than generalities, rather than starting flame wars on a website.

    Fact #3: Definitely a trolling post there EG.
    "Growth is inevitable and desirable, but destruction of community character is not. The question is not whether your part of the world is going to change. The question is how." -- Edward T. McMahon, The Conservation Fund

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Plus
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    What NHPlanner said.
    Oddball
    Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?
    Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
    Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
    From Kelly's Heroes (1970)


    Are you sure you're not hurt ?
    No. Just some parts wake up faster than others.
    Broke parts take a little longer, though.
    From Electric Horseman (1979)

  4. #4
    Cyburbian biscuit's avatar
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    Outrage? For me it's more a matter of not givng two Sh*+$. This Vietnam issue has totally turned me sour against what we let pass as political debate in this country these days. Wait, I'm sorry, there is no real political debate or meaningful discourse in this country because we are spending all of our time talking about what happened 30 years ago to two sons of privilege who's service to this country in an unjust war is being called into question. Personally, I have my doubts about both. Question whether or not I'm outraged when someone from either camp has something to say about the issues and problems that face this country NOW.

    And as for the President controlling the SBVT... I highly, highly doubt it. We all know that the man behind the curtain on this one is the Prince of Darkness himself Karl Rove.
    Last edited by biscuit; 30 Aug 2004 at 10:06 AM. Reason: liberal controlled public education system produces bad spellers.

  5. #5
    Cyburbian statler's avatar
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    /Also trolling

    How about we just spin this off into a "Neverending Pointless Trolling Thread"

    Back on topic:

    The whole Vietnam thing is insane and should be dropped by both parties. In fact it never should have brought up in the first place. This is why I have always and will always hate politics.

    Less on topic:

    John Kerry is a ...

    <Note: content is SFW but URL may not be. Scroll over before clicking>

    Not at all on topic but funny as hell:

    Cat Town
    "So, if a city has a personality, maybe it also has a soul. Maybe it dreams." -Gaiman
    ArchBoston

  6. #6
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NHPlanner
    Fact #1: I pay little attention to the bickering between campaigns and the advertising that is all over the place for the presidential election. EG's post is the first I've even heard of the book. Advertising doesn't influence my voting.....platforms and proposals do.

    Fact #2: I try to keep my political leanings to myself, other than generalities, rather than starting flame wars on a website.

    Fact #3: Definitely a trolling post there EG.

    Fact: I get a liberal dose of liberal righteousness here on Cyburbia day in and day out. But it isn't considered trolling when the majority agrees with the poster, just when it is a minority opinion.

    Fact: Most people donít notice the liberal bias at Cyburbia (or in the majority of the media) because it is their own paradigm and they feel good basking in the reflection of their fellow posterís similar politics. A little righteous outrage when I see hypocrisy is necessary for Cyburbia in my opinion.

    Fact: This was clearly identified as a trolling post: One in which I am attempting to get my liberal brothers and sisters to recognize their own failings.

    Fact: How you decide to vote and upon what information you make these decisions is your business. But donít dismiss my observation on the media because the vast majority of Americans will take the information they get from the media into account.

    Fact: I donít keep my politics to myself. And I donít consider it rude to offer opinions and try to debate the issues on a public bulletin board.

    Fact: John Kerry is running on his service in Viet Nam. Remember his reporting for duty salute?

    Fact: What happened 30 years ago matters to people like me and my dad. It seemed to matter when folks were trying to hang a DWI and cokehead charges on W.

    Fact: Dismiss my points and call it trolling all you like, I'm right on this one.

  7. #7
    Forums Administrator & Gallery Moderator NHPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    Fact: I get a liberal dose of liberal righteousness here on Cyburbia day in and day out. But it isn't considered trolling when the majority agrees with the poster, just when it is a minority opinion?

    Fact: Most people donít notice the liberal bias at Cyburbia (or in the majority of the media) because it is their own paradigm and they feel good basking in the reflection of their fellow posterís similar politics. A little righteous outrage when I see hypocrisy is necessary for Cyburbia in my opinion.

    Fact: This was clearly identified as a trolling post: One in which I am attempting to get my liberal brothers and sisters to recognize their own failings.

    Fact: How you decide to vote and upon what information you make these decisions is your business. But donít dismiss my observation on the media because the vast majority of Americans will take the information they get from the media into account.

    Fact: I donít keep my politics to myself. And I donít consider it rude to offer opinions and try to debate the issues on a public bulletin board.
    I have no issue with what you posted, or with you sharing political opinions on Cyburbia....it's part of what makes this place great.

    I agree that most Americans use the media for their decisions....I don't.

    Yes, most of cyburbia appears to be liberal....and you're well within your right to point this out to everyone.

    As far as trolling goes....this I think falls into a worthwhile troll.....and I'm interested to see this thread develop.

    Regardless of how the media or candidates use Vietnam as part of their approach....it means little to nothing to me. I know it means more to those that served, or are old enough to remember it.....but Vietnam is a non-issue to me.
    "Growth is inevitable and desirable, but destruction of community character is not. The question is not whether your part of the world is going to change. The question is how." -- Edward T. McMahon, The Conservation Fund

  8. #8
    Cyburbian statler's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo

    Fact: Most people donít notice the liberal bias at Cyburbia (or in the majority of the media) because it is their own paradigm and they feel good basking in the reflection of their fellow posterís similar politics. A little righteous outrage when I see hypocrisy is necessary for Cyburbia in my opinion.
    Do you remember the Near & Far bit on Sesame St? I love Grover. He has so much to teach us.

    Let say we have 5 points on a line. it looks like this:

    A B C D E
    We'll call "A" The Far Left, "B" The Left "C" The Center "D" The Right "E" The Far Right

    The FACT is that most of the media and public (and Cyburbia) hover around "C" However if you are stand at "D" it looks like they they are to the Left! (Remember, perception does not equal reality) Also if you stand on "E", "C" will look like the FAR left. The same priciple works from the other side too which is why you hear so much whining and crying about Fox News and the such. Hope this helps!
    "So, if a city has a personality, maybe it also has a soul. Maybe it dreams." -Gaiman
    ArchBoston

  9. #9
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by statler
    Do you remember the Near & Far bit on Sesame St? I love Grover. He has so much to teach us.

    Let say we have 5 points on a line. it looks like this:

    A B C D E
    We'll call "A" The Far Left, "B" The Left "C" The Center "D" The Right "E" The Far Right

    The FACT is that most of the media and public (and Cyburbia) hover around "C" However if you are stand at "D" it looks like they they are to the Left! (Remember, perception does not equal reality) Also if you stand on "E", "C" will look like the FAR left. The same priciple works from the other side too which is why you hear so much whining and crying about Fox News and the such. Hope this helps!
    Statler
    It didn't really help me, but thanks for trying. I find years of careful attention to the issues, reading volumes of books, voting regularly, reading a variety of news sources from a wide spectrum of philosphical points, being engaged in local politics, traveling my nation and the world, serving in my nation's military, serving on local boards, volunteering countless hours in my community, actively debating the issues here with a smart group of people, and working with a diverse population throughout my career in public service to have been of more help to me in my struggle to understand life and politics than your condecending Sesame Street analogy. But thanks anyway.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian The One's avatar
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    What a waste of time....

    Oh and a big smoke screen to conceal all of :y problems :-C

    The war stuff is played out for me.....one candidate went and took fire and was awarded medals, the other didn't....end of story.

    Bottom line is....of the two, one is clearly better for the "entire" country than the other.....and if he isn't, we'll vote him out in 4 years .....so enough of the shell games by the right.....vote already.....
    Skilled Adoxographer

  11. #11
    maudit anglais
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    Statler
    It didn't really help me, but thanks for trying. I find years of careful attention to the issues, reading volumes of books, voting regularly, reading a variety of news sources from a wide spectrum of philosphical points, being engaged in local politics, traveling my nation and the world, serving in my nation's military, serving on local boards, volunteering countless hours in my community and working with a diverse population throughout my career in public service to have been of more help to me in my struggle to undertand life and politics than your condecending Sesame Street analogy. But thanks anyway.
    Well golly gee EG, with responses like that it's now wonder the liberal elite here don't wan't to engage you on the "issues" :rolleyes:

  12. #12
    Cyburbian statler's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    But thanks anyway.
    You're welcome!
    "So, if a city has a personality, maybe it also has a soul. Maybe it dreams." -Gaiman
    ArchBoston

  13. #13
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Tranplanner
    Well golly gee EG, with responses like that it's now wonder the liberal elite here don't wan't to engage you on the "issues" :rolleyes:

    Gosh, I guess if I upset people I might not be popular anymore. :rolleyes:

    You're right Tranplanner. I was a bit miffed about being talked down to and told that because I am so far to the right I cannot see clearly. I guess being miffed is the exclusive right of the left. Pun intended I stand humbled and publicly corrected, yet somehow not appologetic.

    I think I've established the tone for my side of this debate well enough by now. I imagine future posters can expect a somewhat serious exchange on this issue. My tone in other threads outside of this will be jocular and humourous.

    PS I've yet to call anyone a name. That is what gets you a yellow card, is it not?


  14. #14
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    I am bent out of shape about this. Liberal 457 organizations have spent far more than Conservative organizations criticizing Bushís National Guard Record, and then they throw a fit like a little baby when W does not denounce the SBVT adds. W.T.F.?

    Even more so, W. stated that he would like to see an end to all 457 adds, yet Kerry does not want to do that... only the ones that criticize his ĎNam record. Even after W. publicly stated that Kerry should be proud of his record.

    The Democratic leader ship needs to get some balls and get off the fence.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  15. #15
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
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    Doesn't Cyburbia have some rule about redundant threads?

  16. #16
    Cyburbian Rumpy Tunanator's avatar
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    Hey eG, I'll see you at the convention tonight. Just be sure you don't go home with this like I did in '00. You might find a snake in the grass.

    A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."


    Neil McCauley (Robert DeNiro): Heat 1995

  17. #17
    Cyburbian nerudite's avatar
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    I'm not sure what all the outrage is over... don't almost all political candidates try to keep things that may work against them out of the media, by lawyers or whatever other means? I'm sure there are even more things that Kerry doesn't want people to know that will probably come out as well... and the same thing with GWB. Maybe I've seen too many California campaigns to get my panties is a knot about how candidates use the media.

    Edit: BTW, I didn't mention that I probably don't get all of the media and commercials and whatnot up here in Alberta, so I may not understand all of the nuances of what's going on with that portion of both Kerry's and GWB's campaign.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wanigas?
    Doesn't Cyburbia have some rule about redundant threads?
    Good Question. Yes, Cyburbia does have a rule about that issue. And even when I'm on a tear - like this morning -I try to play by the rules here even though I have admin powers.

    I feel that the issue of a group that is normally associated with the protection of free speech being silent in the face of an attack on that right by a powerful man to be issue here, and I believe it is an important issue worthy of debate. The issue is not the validity of claims by the Swift Boat Veteran's for the Truth. I see them as two very different issues and I purposely chose a separate thread to discuss each issue. I hope that answers your question.

    I will abide by the consensus of the other MODs. Most of whom I believe I have thoroughly pissed off by now. But they are a fair group and can separate their politics from their MOD duties.

  19. #19
    Cyburbian nerudite's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I will abide by the consensus of the other MODs. Most of whom I believe I have thoroughly pissed off by now. But they are a fair group and can separate their politics from their MOD duties.
    Although it's a similar subject, I think that the specific topics of the two threads are different enough to warrant two threads.

  20. #20
    maudit anglais
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    I don't see this as a reduntant thread - it is a separate and valid issue. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any news items about it. Must be that damn left-wing media at work again.

    If people want to debate this, could we please keep to the issue and not post things like how great a particular candidate is and who EG should avoid at the convention?

  21. #21
    Cyburbian biscuit's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis

    Even more so, W. stated that he would like to see an end to all 457 adds, yet Kerry does not want to do that... only the ones that criticize his ĎNam record. Even after W. publicly stated that Kerry should be proud of his record.
    And that my friend is the brilliance of this entire thing. The powers behind the power are able to go very negative and call into question Kerryís honesty and commitment to the country, while at the same time keeping the campaign spotlight from falling onto anything resembling a substantive issue, all without W even having to open his mouth. They know that W couldnít possibly get away with attacking Kerry on Vietnam Ė Yes, Kerry may or may not have lied, but WÖ he needs to avoid the subject like the plague. W then come out looking like the one with character by condemning the same 457 organizations his campaign has backed for being so negative.

  22. #22
    Forums Administrator & Gallery Moderator NHPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I will abide by the consensus of the other MODs. Most of whom I believe I have thoroughly pissed off by now. But they are a fair group and can separate their politics from their MOD duties.
    Not pissed off at all. Like I said, despite this being a trolling thread, it deserves to be out there and debated.

    Quote Originally posted by Tranplanner
    If people want to debate this, could we please keep to the issue and not post things like how great a particular candidate is and who EG should avoid at the convention?
    Agree 100%. If you want to go off topic, post another thread.
    "Growth is inevitable and desirable, but destruction of community character is not. The question is not whether your part of the world is going to change. The question is how." -- Edward T. McMahon, The Conservation Fund

  23. #23
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Tranplanner
    ...Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any news items about it. Must be that damn left-wing media at work again...
    I'm suprised you haven't heard about the issue. It has been all over the news here in my country. Here are a few links from both sides of the issue:

    http://www.swiftvets.com/

    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/nati...ntion-Rdp.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/we...ew/29tone.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/na...29vietnam.html

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=40105

  24. #24
    Cyburbian
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    All politicians have secrets, and when running for president I believe they should not hide the most important, like skipping out of the war, DWI, snorting coke and what not.. But also, one when voting should try to vote for the best politician, and in teh case of W going to a war and afterwards say it was a mistake isn't great politics, specially when he could have gone to the war himself, he didn't. How's that for hypocresy, let other peoples sons, daughters, husbands, wives, die in a senseless war, and when I could have gone to a war bail out.
    JMHO

  25. #25
    maudit anglais
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I'm suprised you haven't heard about the issue. It has been all over the news here in my country.
    I've heard of the swift boat controversy, but not of Kerry's alleged supression of materials. I was also on vacation last week.

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