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  1. #1

    Divided Country

    I won't write any more anti-Bush statements as long as there are no more anti-Kerry statements on the board. Frankly I am very distrubed how divided this country has become. The divisions are becoming so deep and so pronounced that compromise and common solution are practically impossible. Our generations has turned out to be one which has to have its own way all the time, except we don;t agree on what we want.

  2. #2
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by chrisinmd
    I won't write any more anti-Bush statements as long as there are no more anti-Kerry statements on the board. Frankly I am very distrubed how divided this country has become. The divisions are becoming so deep and so pronounced that compromise and common solution are practically impossible. Our generations has turned out to be one which has to have its own way all the time, except we don;t agree on what we want.
    I disagree. We are becoming two nations based upon where each side derives its moral base. Each side sees the other as corrupt and wrong out of ingnorance and in some cases malice.

  3. #3
    Cyburbian The One's avatar
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    Ha ha ha ha

    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I disagree. We are becoming two nations based upon where each side derives its moral base. Each side sees the other as corrupt and wrong out of ingnorance and in some cases malice.
    Can't even agree to disagree......Bwa ha ha ha ha......wait a minute....
    I agree that the days of cutting the "deal" seem to be over....now its my way or the highway......But it does seem to have coincided with the current power brokers (Senate, House, Executive Branch) Clinton cut deals on several big bills and vetoed several others......So this really is a recently occuring problem......I would agree that some build up to this point has occured....but it also seems to coincide with the build up to power of a certain group since 1994......
    Skilled Adoxographer

  4. #4
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    I feel this country hasn't been this divided since the Civil War and that scares me.
    In college I was friends with the president of the College Republican on campus also had a very Republican roommate (who wants to sit all of us rommies down for a talk [lecture] before Nov. 2) but we got along because of our own "checks and balances"

    The divide has widened as the election looms closer and it seems that each side consideres the other as the enemy. We are all Americans here, people!
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  5. #5
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I disagree. We are becoming two nations based upon where each side derives its moral base. Each side sees the other as corrupt and wrong out of ingnorance and in some cases malice.
    The idea of judging the other side as "wrong" out of ignorance is not the truth for anti Bushies. There is a lot of factual (not ignorance based) evidence that much of the Bush direction is wrong. The Bush admin has been using "science" to prove that polluters are actually putting out less pollution, that levels of arsenic in water can safely be increased, etc. 75% of Bush supporters think Iraq had WMD and was tied to Al Quieda. Those types of conclusions are factually wrong. Those who oppose Bush because he uses this type of wrong science or propaganda are not opposing him out of ignorance. They are opposing based on scientific studies or true observation.

    A free press would help a lot. What the press and media does now, for the most part, is interview politicians or their staff or their ultra partisan supporters, rather than looking for the "truth." So politician's claims become the new "truth" in newscasting. There are hours of talk on the news. But fact-based reporting comes in minutes or seconds.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian
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    Well.. just as a reminder.... remember what happened here some 30 years ago? That's the danger of a divided society. Well, the US has already passed through 1 civil war....let's hope you don't have to pass through another one.

  7. #7

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    I do wonder if the cultural divide between, for simplistic shorthand's sake, the "coastal cosmopolitans" and the "heartlanders" has gotten too great. I am personally disturbed by the trend of electing conservative southerners (and come on, people, Clinton was more conservative in his domestic agenda than Richard Nixon!!) to positions of authority.

    I don't know what the answer is. On the one hand, you have a version of Christianity that demands an us-vs.-them approach. My sister was wondering out loud if W's policies are deliberately disastrous, in the interest of hurrying the apocalypse. On the other hand, the coastal cosmopolitans seem unable to connect with the heartland culturally.

    Interesting times.

  8. #8
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    I do wonder if the cultural divide between, for simplistic shorthand's sake, the "coastal cosmopolitans" and the "heartlanders" has gotten too great. I am personally disturbed by the trend of electing conservative southerners (and come on, people, Clinton was more conservative in his domestic agenda than Richard Nixon!!) to positions of authority.

    I don't know what the answer is. On the one hand, you have a version of Christianity that demands an us-vs.-them approach. My sister was wondering out loud if W's policies are deliberately disastrous, in the interest of hurrying the apocalypse. On the other hand, the coastal cosmopolitans seem unable to connect with the heartland culturally.

    Interesting times.
    Southern conservatives have always held more sway than population would indicate. They used to be segregationist Democrats. Now they are mostly Republicans.

    I expect there to be a correction in the heartland. Most Republicans are economic conservatives who would want a small government, balanced budgets, freedom from foreign entanglements, and lower taxes. In that list of core values, the only thing Bush has done is cut taxes.

    Also, as people experience the downside of increased pollution, despoiled natural areas, monopolist cost increases, higher drug and medical costs or lost coverage, lost retirement programs, etc. as real experiences, they will see the downside of the current administration. I believe these will hurt the heartland more than the coasts. It is amazing that the victims of the Bush economy are his strongest supporters.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian biscuit's avatar
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    Is there any real chance of a second Civil War? Not a chance. Is there going to be quite a bit of civil unrest? Probably so.

    My fear is that the slightest hint of impropriety on Election Day is going to send people (most likely from the left) out into the streets. Whether or not it will be just peaceful protest or all out rioting, I don’t know. Either way, it isn’t going to be pretty.


    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    I don't know what the answer is. On the one hand, you have a version of Christianity that demands an us-vs.-them approach. My sister was wondering out loud if W's policies are deliberately disastrous, in the interest of hurrying the apocalypse. On the other hand, the coastal cosmopolitans seem unable to connect with the heartland culturally.
    I think BKM’s comment, excluding the part about W wanting to hasten the apocalypse, is pretty close to the truth. Intellectuals, liberals and lefties just cannot understand the mindset of most social/religious conservatives and for the most part they don’t try to. For the “coastal cosmopolitans” it’s easier to discount them as ignorant and backwards rather than try to relate or find what little common ground there is.

    Social conservatives on the other hand have developed a major, and I think worrisome, us versus them mentality. I spent a good portion of my life in the religious training that can create such an approach and can say that many on the right see politics as a zero-sum-game. To them you either embrace their particular moralistic views or you risk being classified as a godless liberal. And godless liberals, just like the devil, are lurking under every bush and all the halls of power just waiting to destroy our “Christian” nation and gay marry our kids.

    I know that’s rather simplistic, but that’s the way things seem to be playing out these day. I for one can’t wait for this election to be over with… no matter who wins.

  10. #10
    The huge divide in this county is because of the war. After 9-11 we were as united as ever and the world was on our side. Bush chose to invade Iraq and frittered away all of that. Gay marriage isn’t dividing the country because most people are against it. Ups and downs in the economy have been happening for decades. The loss of manufacturing jobs has been going on for years. Health care has been an issue since before the Clinton’s failed attempt at national coverage.

    You basically have two schools of thought. One believes that it is ok to invade a country that posed no threat to us based on false information and the other believes that war should only be fought if absolutely necessary (like in Afghanistan).

    If Bush hadn’t gone into Iraq he would have had this election locked up months ago.
    "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are."

    - Homer Simpson

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Rumpy Tunanator's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by biscuit
    Is there any real chance of a second Civil War? Not a chance. Is there going to be quite a bit of civil unrest? Probably so.

    My fear is that the slightest hint of impropriety on Election Day is going to send people (most likely from the left) out into the streets. Whether or not it will be just peaceful protest or all out rioting, I don’t know. Either way, it isn’t going to be pretty.
    Oh crips, sounds like the former common council president who said they would take it out into the streets if the council was downsized. Well the voters voted and the downsizing opponents lost. Lesson learned and nobody took anything to the streets.

    If I see anymore hippies and commie (planners) who aren't registered, or didn't partake in the elections complaining after election day, I'm going to and then kick them in the nads .
    A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."


    Neil McCauley (Robert DeNiro): Heat 1995

  12. #12
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by chrisinmd
    I won't write any more anti-Bush statements as long as there are no more anti-Kerry statements on the board.
    I won't advocate the silencing of either conservative or liberal voices in the Cyburbia Forums.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  13. #13
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Why not voice opinions?

    It may just be me, but I think that all of this is a good thing. For the first time in a long time people actually care about whom is in government. They also care about the issues and the potential direction that this country is going. In the past, voter turnout has been low, people have been apathetic, and the political leaders have gotten away with what ever they wanted.

    We are a society of options. That is what makes us a democracy. Look at all the choices that we have that could turn into an idea of conflict. We have sports fans that will beat the crap out of each other over who’s team is better, we have churches what battle for the chance to “SAVE”, we even that battles over what music is better.

    As long as we have these choices, people are going to voice their opinion. When I say something that I personally do not like about Kerry, it is not a personal attack against those who think differently than I do, it is just that we differ in opinion, and I think that some may take things too personally and respond with directed personal attacks.

    A hypothetical (or not) example would be someone saying “Kerry is a dick” and another person might respond with “People who vote for Bush are dicks!” Unless your John Kerry, the first comment was not a personal attack, the second was.

    If someone wanted to say “Blue is the worst color ever” or “the Wings suck” or “Bush is a moron” I think that is great, as long as they have an opinion and a reason for that opinion. It is even ok if that reason is nothing more than, “because I don’t like it/them/him/her/that”

  14. #14
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    It may just be me, but I think that all of this is a good thing. For the first time in a long time people actually care about whom is in government. They also care about the issues and the potential direction that this country is going. In the past, voter turnout has been low, people have been apathetic, and the political leaders have gotten away with what ever they wanted.

    We are a society of options. That is what makes us a democracy. Look at all the choices that we have that could turn into an idea of conflict. We have sports fans that will beat the crap out of each other over who’s team is better, we have churches what battle for the chance to “SAVE”, we even that battles over what music is better.

    As long as we have these choices, people are going to voice their opinion. When I say something that I personally do not like about Kerry, it is not a personal attack against those who think differently than I do, it is just that we differ in opinion, and I think that some may take things too personally and respond with directed personal attacks.

    A hypothetical (or not) example would be someone saying “Kerry is a dick” and another person might respond with “People who vote for Bush are dicks!” Unless your John Kerry, the first comment was not a personal attack, the second was.

    If someone wanted to say “Blue is the worst color ever” or “the Wings suck” or “Bush is a moron” I think that is great, as long as they have an opinion and a reason for that opinion. It is even ok if that reason is nothing more than, “because I don’t like it/them/him/her/that”
    This just in....John Kerry is still a dick....

  15. #15
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    For the first time in a long time people actually care about whom is in government.
    You are absolutely right. In the 4 presidential elections I've ever had the opportunity to vote in, the one that's coming up is bar far the most important one I've ever seen. Regardless, I have a tough time understanding why there are so many undecided voters this time around.

  16. #16
    Cyburbian The One's avatar
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    Ahhh.....

    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    It may just be me, but I think that all of this is a good thing. For the first time in a long time people actually care about whom is in government. They also care about the issues and the potential direction that this country is going. In the past, voter turnout has been low, people have been apathetic, and the political leaders have gotten away with what ever they wanted.

    We are a society of options. That is what makes us a democracy. Look at all the choices that we have that could turn into an idea of conflict. We have sports fans that will beat the crap out of each other over who’s team is better, we have churches what battle for the chance to “SAVE”, we even that battles over what music is better.

    As long as we have these choices, people are going to voice their opinion. When I say something that I personally do not like about Kerry, it is not a personal attack against those who think differently than I do, it is just that we differ in opinion, and I think that some may take things too personally and respond with directed personal attacks.

    A hypothetical (or not) example would be someone saying “Kerry is a dick” and another person might respond with “People who vote for Bush are dicks!” Unless your John Kerry, the first comment was not a personal attack, the second was.

    If someone wanted to say “Blue is the worst color ever” or “the Wings suck” or “Bush is a moron” I think that is great, as long as they have an opinion and a reason for that opinion. It is even ok if that reason is nothing more than, “because I don’t like it/them/him/her/that”
    Kum Ba Ya......
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  17. #17
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wanigas?
    You are absolutely right. In the 4 presidential elections I've ever had the opportunity to vote in, the one that's coming up is bar far the most important one I've ever seen. Regardless, I have a tough time understanding why there are so many undecided voters this time around.
    Because this time around, the liberal republicans see where the religious right is taking us and they are having a hard time deciding to vote with thier party affiliation that will cause the destruction of our country as we know it or hop the fence and vote for a democrat that might bring some sanity back to the nation.

    As for the apocolypse theory, that is my leading choice for gop behavior. Been watching Jack Van Impe and Roxelle near bar close for 15 years. Noting better than watching Jack wag his head back and forth frothing at the mouth as talks about the joys of the pending apocolypse (Its been next year for 15 years now ). Roxelle is now getting a bit aged but she was so.....well endowed. Kicking back with the last beer of the night, eating gyros and fries while watching Roxelle fawn on the frothing mr. Impe with that vacan platinum blond staere. You could almost see the rocks rattling around in there through her eyes. You can't BUY that kind of entertainment!
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  18. #18
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wanigas?
    You are absolutely right. In the 4 presidential elections I've ever had the opportunity to vote in, the one that's coming up is bar far the most important one I've ever seen. Regardless, I have a tough time understanding why there are so many undecided voters this time around.
    Even though I spout off about voting for the Libertarian candidate, I really wish that there was a candidate here that I felt good about. Our president's move away from economic conservative values (run-up of the national debt) doesn't match my personal view. His focus on a gay marriage constitutional amendment is ludicrous. Change the channel.

    I support his Irag decision. Saddam was a bad guy and would hurt us if he could. (The above is an over-simplified comment for brevity's sake.)

    John Kerry is too much of an unknown. He really has flip-flopped on some issues, some flipping with justification and some flipping for political reasons. He has way too many programs lined-up with, IMO, not enough bucks to pay for them, unless they call and ask the ole' Bear to cough up more $$. We pay way too much in taxes already. Economic growth would be spurred by less taxation.

    I agree with John Kerry on the stem cell research issue. I don't agree with the Bush folks on issues when they line-up next to the Christian Right. Those people want to control the hearts and minds of everybody and will step on anybody to do it.

    Both sides fill the advertising airwaves with half-truths and statements or decisions taken out of context.

    I would vote for either candidate if they spent an hour on a stump speech only talking about what they have done wrong while in their respective positions. That kind of admitance would secure my vote.

    Wanigas, these are just a few of the reasons this Bear is undecided.

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  19. #19
    Cyburbian Plus Whose Yur Planner's avatar
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    I agree that the country is splitting, but I place the blame at the feet of the media and the politicans. They both have been fanning the flames of discord for their own ends. This has, in turn, decreased our lack of tolerance and civility toward each other. It doesn't matter if you think the other person is a screaming moron or not. You should respect their opinion and agree to disagree and move on.

  20. #20
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    This just in....John Kerry is still a dick....
    I am sorry but every time you say that, all I can think of is that photo caption contest we did, the one Queen B won.

  21. #21
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    This just in....John Kerry is still a dick....
    Naaaahhhh, but I *CAN* truthfully say that Cheney is a 'Dick'.



    Still though, I can't help but notice that despite the severe disdain that the Democrats have for requiring the showing of a valid photo-ID to be able to vote (what I consider to be a reasonable vote fraud deterrant), the voters in Afghanistan's recent election ALL had photo-ID voter registration cards issued to them and they were very proud to show them off to press photographers.

    Why enacting laws requiring them in USA elections has been made into a devisive issue is beyond me.

    Mike

  22. #22
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Duke Of Dystopia
    Jack Van Impe and Roxelle
    It's Rexella... REXELLA!

    Wow, she is one hot Christian! I love it when she reads Revelations and the day's headlines! I get so aroused. I want her to read me a bedtime story!




  23. #23

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    I feel that an important exacerbating factor in an increasingly divided America has been the redrawing of Congressional districts to create overwhelming Democratic or Republican majorities. Few members of the House have to connect with those who are inclined to disagree with them in order to get elected and reelected, and so they aren't very good about it when they get to Congress. I think that it is generally conceded that Republicans, who complained so vociferously pre-1994 about how the Democrats ran the House, have been far worse (all for a good cause, I'm sure that they feel). If we created more House districts that were truly competitive, we as a nation would surely be less polarized, as our representatives would be more moderate. An example is how districts are drawn in Iowa, which not coincidentally has produced some of the more moderate Republican members of the House (to the disdain of the right wing -- I good sign that Iowa's approach is a good one)...

  24. #24
    It was an ultra-nationalism that swept Europe in the mid-nineteenth century that led to numerous coups de etat and bloody revolutions. Today, it is ultra-hyphenization of Americans that lend comfort to those who would divide us. When we don't see ourselves as Americans first, special interests win. And that is not a good thing. I was hopeful the way the nation came together post-Sept'r 11, but we have a short national memory. That chance is lost. I'm not hopeful today.
    On pitching to Stan Musial:
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  25. #25
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    There are a few reasons for hope. First is term limits.

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