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Thread: Divided Country

  1. #26
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Gedunker
    It was an ultra-nationalism that swept Europe in the mid-nineteenth century that led to numerous coups de etat and bloody revolutions. Today, it is ultra-hyphenization of Americans that lend comfort to those who would divide us. When we don't see ourselves as Americans first, special interests win. And that is not a good thing. I was hopeful the way the nation came together post-Sept'r 11, but we have a short national memory. That chance is lost. I'm not hopeful today.
    Actually, that is a good point: the fact that America is so smug and secure does sort of put us at risk for creating internal conflict. A nation that has external enemies often bands together internally. A big nation with a lot of diversity has issues, like you said.

  2. #27

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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    Actually, that is a good point: the fact that America is so smug and secure does sort of put us at risk for creating internal conflict. A nation that has external enemies often bands together internally. A big nation with a lot of diversity has issues, like you said.
    Yes, but that sort of unity is difficult to sustain. In retrospect, the breakdown of the initial unity post 9-11 was perhaps inevitable, since the fact of 9-11 demonstrated that so much was at stake, that the policies of this government, and how it approached the threat of radical Islam is important. But the correct response to this threat is not obvious. The only thing that the Ds and Rs seem to agree on is that we don't need higher gas prices.

  3. #28

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    I'm thinking about the World Series (currently quite painful for a Cardinals fan). When I was a kid the Series was on, every radio in every store (more day games then) and every TV in every store window was on to the game. Even the folks who didn't take much interest in baseball normally talked about it. It was something of a national ritual, but fading as that, even in the '60's. At the same time the Civil Rights movement was in full swing, the summer of love was about to happen, the environmental movement wasn't that visible, but it was stepping onto the national stage, and feminism was just around the corner. I am not sure our sense of unity and national identity would have survived all that, but it was never given a chance. How one felt about the Viet Nam War became a litmus test and a way of dividing our society that cut across all the lines. I guess it still is. When Kerry started running, I thought he had a chance to use his candidacy to heal that rift. But, no.

    So now we're adding Iraq as another litmus test, or at least some folks are trying to. I am not sure a civil society can survive too many of those. But it is a trend, look at how we think we can measure education and learning using all of these standardized tests.

    Bush has introduced a new kind of politics. He did not win the popular vote. He won the electoral college as a result of a court decision. But has he in any way moderated his policies, listened to what the people of the nation were saying and tried to steer a moderate middle path. No he has fostered divisiveness, apparently with some thought of an ultimate victory. This is not the good old American horse-trading politics anymore, and where it leads us I don't know. It makes it a lot easier to vote for somebody who flips and flops, if that is in fact what Kerry has done - in these days uncertainty is a sign of sanity.

    One thing I disagree with: the Bush administration is not about Jesus coming back, although W himself may think that, and so do many of the people who will vote for him. But the Cheneys, Rumsfelds, Norton, etc. believe no such thing. The operational end of the Bush administration is about the systematic looting of the public treasury and public domain while the nation is looking the other way.

  4. #29
    I was talking to some friends this weekend and I posed this question "If Al Gore was president and he invaded Iraq, would the conservatives be campaigning on an anti-war platform?" In my mind the answer is yes. People in this country are so blinded by partisanism that they don't think about things themselves. You know if Al Gore led us into Iraq any republican challeneger would be talking about "the wrong war at the wrong time" and would be ripping him for taking troops away from Afghanistan. If it was Gore that ran up a huge deficit, they would take him to task for that. That is what gets me riled up. A lot of this political grandstanding . Not all, but a lot of the same people who support the Iraq war would be the biggest anti-war opponents if the tables were turned.

    ..and please don't reply with "Al Gore would have never led us into Iraq" I know that he would have never led us to an unnecessary war I am just using him as an example.
    "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are."

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  5. #30
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Repo Man
    I was talking to some friends this weekend and I posed this question "If Al Gore was president and he invaded Iraq, would the conservatives be campaigning on an anti-war platform?" In my mind the answer is yes. People in this country are so blinded by partisanism that they don't think about things themselves. You know if Al Gore led us into Iraq any republican challeneger would be talking about "the wrong war at the wrong time" and would be ripping him for taking troops away from Afghanistan. If it was Gore that ran up a huge deficit, they would take him to task for that. That is what gets me riled up. A lot of this political grandstanding . Not all, but a lot of the same people who support the Iraq war would be the biggest anti-war opponents if the tables were turned.

    ..and please don't reply with "Al Gore would have never led us into Iraq" I know that he would have never led us to an unnecessary war I am just using him as an example.
    Wishful thinking. So, turn the tables and examine your own bunch of rationizing pinkos. Are they against the war because W is leading it? Yep. How many UN resolutions were there pre war?

    Itook me a while to come to the conclusion, as evidenced by my posts here to embrace the war. But I'm now quite comfortable with it.

  6. #31
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
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    How comfortable are we with Operation Iraqi Freedom?

    [urrl]http://truthout.org/imgs.art_01/3.us.dead.soldier.3.jpg[/urrl]

    EDIT

    You are right - not good judgment on my part.

    Image eliminated but link of charred corpse remains.

    My point is this - the war in Iraq was wrong. And still is wrong.
    Last edited by Wannaplan?; 25 Oct 2004 at 12:03 PM.

  7. #32
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    How comfortable are we to use a family's personal pain to be a liberal ****ing prick? That was sombody's loved one. But liberals justify the ends don't you.

    How comfortable are you using that image?

    You want to talk smack? I've shot mother****ers for this nation and have been shot at in return 20 to 30 times and I see how quick my fellow citizens are to elect a ****ing trator president. Hell ya I'm pissed. I see you people asking the best among you to fight and die and then your ****ting on them by not letting them finish the job and by critiquing every nit picking thing they do. I see you registering illegal aliens to vote. I see you destoying the counrty I love.



    Bye Cyburbia.
    [b]Dan[b/] For my own mental health please take away my mod powers and close my account. Hugs and kisses to al the good people here, but I need change and arguing with a small group of people I find malicious to my beliefs and nation is far too taxing. You guys have been great, but its truly time for me to get.

    Good Luck [b]Dan[b/]

  8. #33
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    I'd vote for a old gym sock before I'd vote for Bush, but Kerry is still a good guy.

  9. #34
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    How comfortable are we to use a family's personal pain to be a liberal ****ing prick? That was sombody's loved one. But liberals justify the ends don't you.

    How comfortable are you using that image?

    You want to talk smack? I've shot mother****ers for this nation and have been shot at in return 20 to 30 times and I see how quick my fellow citizens are to elect a ****ing trator president. Hell ya I'm pissed. I see you people asking the best among you to fight and die and then your ****ting on them by not letting them finish the job and by critiquing every nit picking thing they do. I see you registering illegal aliens to vote. I see you destoying the counrty I love.



    Bye Cyburbia.
    [b]Dan[b/] For my own mental health please take away my mod powers and close my account. Hugs and kisses to al the good people here, but I need change and arguing with a small group of people I find malicious to my beliefs and nation is far too taxing. You guys have been great, but its truly time for me to get.

    Good Luck [b]Dan[b/]
    EG, try not to take it personally, because I don't. Let those with the vitriolic hatred play themselves for the fools that they are while the rest of us produce the well reasoned, logical arguements on both sides that are the very basis of our republic. The arguements and passion of our nation's early days were as strong, or stronger, than they are now. I am distressed at the valid reports possible voter fraud that I am hearing and reading, even from my own home state, but even that is nothing new (remember the 'dead vote' that swung Illinois and the election to Kennedy in 1960?). However, I do love a good, spirited campaign from both sides.

    Keep the faith, because I am.

    Mike

  10. #35
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    .......Itook me a while to come to the conclusion, as evidenced by my posts here to embrace the war. But I'm now quite comfortable with it.
    When a rational view of it should have made you come to the oposite conclusion?

    As one who initially suported it, I KNOW that my leadership lied its collective ASS off and now people of all stripes are dying under the false guise of American Freedom.

    wow
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  11. #36
    Cyburbian ludes98's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    Bye Cyburbia.
    Dan For my own mental health please take away my mod powers and close my account. Hugs and kisses to al the good people here, but I need change and arguing with a small group of people I find malicious to my beliefs and nation is far too taxing. You guys have been great, but its truly time for me to get.

    Good Luck Dan
    EG, I hope that after the elections and perhaps some time away from the FAC you feel like Cyburbia is still a place for you. If not, I'll miss your humor and best wishes.

  12. #37

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    Quote Originally posted by Repo Man
    I was talking to some friends this weekend and I posed this question "If Al Gore was president and he invaded Iraq, would the conservatives be campaigning on an anti-war platform?" In my mind the answer is yes. People in this country are so blinded by partisanism that they don't think about things themselves. You know if Al Gore led us into Iraq any republican challeneger would be talking about "the wrong war at the wrong time" and would be ripping him for taking troops away from Afghanistan. If it was Gore that ran up a huge deficit, they would take him to task for that. That is what gets me riled up. A lot of this political grandstanding . Not all, but a lot of the same people who support the Iraq war would be the biggest anti-war opponents if the tables were turned.

    ..and please don't reply with "Al Gore would have never led us into Iraq" I know that he would have never led us to an unnecessary war I am just using him as an example.
    More than that, I'd say. If Gore had narrowly prevailed in 2000, Republicans would have been far less charitable towards him than the Democrats were toward Bush after 9/11. And if a Gore administration had done as pitiful as job defending itself as the Bush administration has, the Republicans would have been uncompromsing. They impeached a president for sex -- can we doubt that Gore et al would have been the recipient of a similar attack?

  13. #38
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
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    can't we all agree that what this is all coming to is that we need a 3rd major party?

    the two have become such ying-yang black/white, good/evil that the system is dividing the country.

    In a strange way, it's almost as if the terrorists did win, they've helped to politically divide the country
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  14. #39
    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    Wishful thinking. So, turn the tables and examine your own bunch of rationizing pinkos. Are they against the war because W is leading it? Yep. How many UN resolutions were there pre war?

    Itook me a while to come to the conclusion, as evidenced by my posts here to embrace the war. But I'm now quite comfortable with it.
    I was away from Cyburbia for a few days and noticed the EG taglines. It seems that my posts was one of the ones that may have pushed him over the edge. It seems that he missed my point completely. I was trying to articulate that both sides are full of crap. They will blindly support their party no matter what. I would agree that a ton of people that would have supported an Iraq invasion under Clinton are against it because Bush is the President.

    This country needs more parties. Isn't there any room for say the person who is left leaning on social issues like abortion and gay rights but supports gun ownership and low taxes? What about the hardcore conservative who thinks that the war in Iraq was wrong and unnecessary?

    It sucks that this has gotten so negative and I wish EG would come back, but I think that he needs to realize that most liberals don't hate this country, don't hate the military and are not out to destroy America. Most liberals love America and they feel that the current administration is the one destroying the country. If they hated America they wouldn’t give a crap what happened here.

    And while we all appreciate the contributions that EG and other current and past military members have given to our country, I don't believe that because someone served that their opinion is somehow more important or their arguments more valid than someone who didn’t chose to serve.
    "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are."

    - Homer Simpson

  15. #40
         
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    As someone who has tried to champion conservative views online, I totally feel for El Guapo. You get ganged up on very quickly and it can seriously affect your mental health. I've had to completely stop going to several forums that I once enjoyed very much simply because the political banter had become unbearable.

    Good on ya, EG. It really isn't worth your sanity to be raked over the coals everyday. Hope you're doing well.

  16. #41
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by Wulf9
    The idea of judging the other side as "wrong" out of ignorance is not the truth for anti Bushies.
    Yawn.
    There is a lot of factual (not ignorance based) evidence that much of the Bush direction is wrong.
    There is a lot of factual (not ignorance based) evidence that much of the Kerry direction is wrong.
    The Bush admin has been using "science" to prove that polluters are actually putting out less pollution, that levels of arsenic in water can safely be increased, etc.
    Mind you, Bush never did anything to increase arsenic levels beyond cancelling something thrown in fairly maliciously right as he took office. Sort've like being accused of being "against home maintenance" because you discovered after buying a home that 50 gallons of very expensive, garish purple house paint had been ordered cash on delivery to be delivered on your movein day.
    75% of Bush supporters think Iraq had WMD and was tied to Al Quieda.
    Both of which have been unquestionably true at various points in time, given that Iraq has actually -used- WMD before, and as I recall has a fairly explicit connection at some point. Mind, whether they happenned to be true *at the exact point in time which is being disputed* is under question. Honestly, it's just another problem that was inherited from Clinton and Bush Senior. And the whole "Popularity is low - I know! Let's go bomb a country most people can't find on a map!" thing is mainly one of Clinton's trademarks. I didn't like it then, I don't like it now.
    I'm going to have to agree that i'm really really sick of this sort of drivel. I honestly don't like either one. But the mindless pap that passes for political debate I see poured around by those utterly convinced of their moral superiority is doing little but irritate me.

  17. #42
    Last week in one of my grad classes, our professor asked the class about how divided our country is, and the response by the 25 students mostly from NYS was that we should have let the South go years ago and created our own nation. We as a country are really divided on many issues. We in NY have our own view of things, but when a friend of mine said last week that she was no longer just Catholic but a christian catholic (moved to Florida two years ago), I started to think how religion causes so many problems in the country. On a recent visit to Texas a lady made a comment about all you "catholics in NY"...the divide is growing.

  18. #43
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by valhallan
    As someone who has tried to champion conservative views online, I totally feel for El Guapo. You get ganged up on very quickly and it can seriously affect your mental health. I've had to completely stop going to several forums that I once enjoyed very much simply because the political banter had become unbearable. .
    Have to agree there. I get pretty irritated at running again and again into the mindset that if you don't agree wholeheartedly with their specific gurus and peddlers of questionable and factually iffy or absurd information that you're an ignorant, inbred, Dark-age, control-freak, lying, puppykilling racist hick who enjoys spitting on people in the street, stealing food from babies, and dumping chemicals in wells just for the joy of it. Once you get that sort of treatment on a daily basis for a couple years, you tend to get exceedingly irritated with the whole attitude.

    And no, I am not exaggerating.

  19. #44
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    I'm sorry that this thread reached a point where eG felt basically excommunicated for his conservative views. Though I don't agree with him usually, I do respect his opinion. It's not often we get to hear conservative points-of-view from planners, which is why I believe he is valuable to the Cyburbia community. Imagine how boring political discussions on this site could get if all that was left was the "more liberal" planners!

    Please come back, El Guapo!

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  20. #45
         
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    Quote Originally posted by upstateplanner
    Last week in one of my grad classes, our professor asked the class about how divided our country is, and the response by the 25 students mostly from NYS was that we should have let the South go years ago and created our own nation. We as a country are really divided on many issues. We in NY have our own view of things, but when a friend of mine said last week that she was no longer just Catholic but a christian catholic (moved to Florida two years ago), I started to think how religion causes so many problems in the country. On a recent visit to Texas a lady made a comment about all you "catholics in NY"...the divide is growing.
    Lately I've thought we should be more than one country. It's unfortunate that the South chose to engage in slavery, for obvious reasons, but also because their other fighting point of states' rights got lost in the mix and would probably be very beneficial today. Our country is just too large and too over-populated for an efficient and effective federal government.

  21. #46
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by JusticeZero
    Have to agree there. I get pretty irritated..[snip]..irritated with the whole attitude.

    And no, I am not exaggerating.
    Question:

    Are you referring to Cyburbia specifically or just the typical crazy leftys/rightys in general?

    If your comments are targeted specifically to Cyburbia, I recommend you temper your accusations. Many of the posters here, although mostly left leaning, offer well-reasoned non-inflammatory commentary. Though some do go over the line on occasion, this should not condemn the whole.
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    The ends can justify the means.

  22. #47
    Cyburbian
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    Just in general. That pretty much described my entire time in college, and some of the forums i've been chased off of that had lots of othewise reasonable-seeming people. I haven't run into all that much debate here so far. Presumably i'll encounter more over time.
    The problem usually comes when you get a small number - but nonetheless, a number - of posters with extreme and strange political views launching lots of angry attacks, and the community in general implicitly accepts the attacks as being reasonable through inaction, agreement, and the like.
    In any group it is important to controll one's loonies, because if one allows their extremists to mouth off at people unchallenged, then the extremist position IS the de-facto perceived community position, as it is the one that they see put forth regularly and without debate.

  23. #48
         
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    EDIT: what Justice said

  24. #49
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by JusticeZero
    Just in general. That pretty much described my entire time in college, and some of the forums i've been chased off of that had lots of othewise reasonable-seeming people. I haven't run into all that much debate here so far. Presumably i'll encounter more over time.
    The problem usually comes when you get a small number - but nonetheless, a number - of posters with extreme and strange political views launching lots of angry attacks, and the community in general implicitly accepts the attacks as being reasonable through inaction, agreement, and the like.
    In any group it is important to controll one's loonies, because if one allows their extremists to mouth off at people unchallenged, then the extremist position IS the de-facto perceived community position, as it is the one that they see put forth regularly and without debate.
    Cool - glad you're here.
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    The ends can justify the means.

  25. #50
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    I think this issue runs deeper than "politics". This forum has a history of tolerating cruel behavior and tolerating behavior that targets one individual and amounts to a virtual "lynching". Let me remind everyone once again: EG had recently been in a terrible biking accident that resulted in surgery -- at a time when he was caring for a close relative who had recently been in a serious car wreck. Just because he is a tough, thick-skinned person who can take a lot of crap and dishes it out pretty well does not mean he shouldn't be given care and consideration at such a time.

    I know that when I say things like that, people generally think I am being "overly sensitive" and I want people to walk on eggshells and fret about every single thing they say for fear that someone's feelings might be hurt. But that is the exact opposite of what I seek. I seek to promote real tolerance for legitimate differences of opinion and real tolerance for human foibles and shortcomings and the simple fact that everyone has a really bad day sometimes. And you cannot have that kind of tolerance when it is part of group culture to tolerate bad behavior by the entire group while vilifying bad behavior on the part of one individual and acting like they somehow deserve to be lynched. That creates genuine fear of opening one's mouth.

    I don't see any reason why EG should want to come back. I believe he is owed a public apology by a few people. BKM already stepped forward and apologized (in another thread) when I reminded him of EG's accident and surgery. Others should too. We have threads where we put up with and actively encourage folks to post while drunk but then if someone is on prescription medication and in excruciating pain, we cut them no slack and act like it is on them to "behave" and we have no responsibility for being understanding. This forum is full of planners -- people who, in essence, are builders of civilization. There is a saying to the effect that "a civilization is measured by how well it cares for its weak". And this forum does a rather poor job of protecting people when they are weak. The motto seems to be "Kick them while they are down". I think everyone here who in any way contributed to EG's decision to leave should really be ashamed. He was the second in command here. He helped build this forum. And everyone knew about his recent tragedies. If it isn't safe for him to have a bad day and stick his foot in his mouth and be given a "pass" on it, I don't think it is safe for anyone.

    In spite of his reputation for being deserving of an excess of "yellow cards", when he politely left amidst such treatment, he showed that he is still one of the most civilized people here and the forum has suffered a great loss. But I don't think anyone should ask him to come back. It is pure selfishness to ask that he continue to give to us when we have failed to give to him in his time of need. If there is any "campaign", it should be a campaign to make amends to him and set this right and ask absolutely NOTHING in return, not even his forgiveness. He has given enough. He deserves better than what he got in return.

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