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Thread: Can Someone Explain?

  1. #51
    Cyburbian ricepg's avatar
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    Well I live in the south and also happen to lean toward the Democratic party, so I'll toss my opinion in.

    I am just as disappointed as anyone that Kerry lost. But it seems that some of you want to place the blame for a Kerry loss squarely on the south and their "moral supperiority" and dislike for anyone north of the Mason-Dixon line. Well that might be plausable if only the southern states voted for Bush. However looking at a map of the red states/blue states shows that this is far from the case. Apparently the the "values" arguement (which I personally find absurd) resonates beyond the south. Also remember all states with a same sex marriage referendum voted against it including Oregon, Michigan, and Ohio.

    Elisabeth said that, "I'd believe that there are a lot of intelligent people living in the south, but I also think the majority of south still holds on to archaic stereotypes regarding people living north of them. In this respect, I feel justified saying the majority of, not all, southerners were quick to vote for the guy the most readily identify with--a stupid man from Texas (in my opinion)."

    I personally find this statement hypocritical. It seems that you are suggesting that southerners identify with "stupid" yet you criticize southerners as holding archaic stereotypes about northerners. Are the majority of people in the other 30 or so states that voted for Bush stupid as well? Perhaps Ohio, Colorado, and Arizona are the new, Mississippi, Georgia, and Tennessee.

    My personal feelings on why Bush won:
    People are scared that we are going to be killed and our way of life is going to be destroyed and only he can save us.

    All of his failings can be convienently be blamed on Sept. 11 (some legitimatly so but certainly not all)

    And the success they had at distorting Kerry's position on many of issues and scaring people senseless and making people believe that Kerry is a panzy and will wet his pants the next time that a terriorist attack occured.


    Now that our Oliver Cromwell has his mandate, God bless America indeed!!!

  2. #52

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    Well, the South can certainly NOT be blamed for the nomination of a tone deaf candidate who ran one of the feeblest campaigns in recent history.

    It's also unfair to tag the south alone with the theocracy label. Every major exit along Interestate 69 between Fort Wayne and Indianapolis, Indiana had another religion-based university. Needless to say, Indiana was indeed a Red State, as always. And, I'm saying this without judgement, just observation.

  3. #53
    Cyburbian Achernar's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jestes
    ~~My South is colorblind. In my South, we donít put a premium on pigment. No one cares whether you are black, white, red or green with orange polka dots....

    ...please explain to me what exactly we are needing to get our country back from?
    A slim majority of Alabama voters voted yesterday to leave the following in the state Constitution: "Separate schools shall be provided for white and colored children, and no child of either race shall be permitted to attend a school of the other race." Whose South do they live in?

  4. #54
    Cyburbian Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Achernar
    A slim majority of Alabama voters voted yesterday to leave the following in the state Constitution: "Separate schools shall be provided for white and colored children, and no child of either race shall be permitted to attend a school of the other race." Whose South do they live in?
    So who's perfect? Geez, the worst instance of racism I've ever seen was by the mother of a friend in Mamaroneck, NY. Some Yankees are racists, too.

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally posted by Zoning Goddess
    So who's perfect? Geez, the worst instance of racism I've ever seen was by the mother of a friend in Mamaroneck, NY. Some Yankees are racists, too.
    I'm sorry: Equating anecdotal examples of racism with language in a State Constitution approved by a MAJORITY specifically evoking separate but equal doesn't compute.

  6. #56
    Cyburbian Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    I'm sorry: Equating anecdotal examples of racism with language in a State Constitution approved by a MAJORITY specifically evoking separate but equal doesn't compute.
    (Not a personal attack BKM) Sorry but sometimes it's the best we can do. Can't explain the view of a state. At least we can illustrate that BAD things aren't just in the South.

    Sometimes the Yankee/Midwest/West needs to see that, as much as they berate us for our views/votes/"moralism", we may have the same, less than positive view of the views/votes/"moralism" in their region. But by slinging mud at the South they're opened the gates. And it gets tiresome. The rest of the nation needs to get the fact that we may have disparate views but we are no more "bad" than you are. I'm not "Aunt Bee" by any means, but I am sick to death of the stereotype of southerners as complete idiots.

  7. #57
    Cyburbian
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    Ommm.. Omm.. I shall channel my rural brethren here to answer as best as I can..
    2) Could it be that these people believe in values, values that support the family, etc. - How so? Adequate housing, healthcare, education, and employment support the family. Sending your 18 year old children off to get blown up in unarmored vehicles for black gold is not supporting your family.
    Subsidies for housing and government "gimme" welfare programs just enable and reward immoral drug abusers and welfare mothers. You have to invite the government into your life too much, and then the godless criminal children on the Left will want to micro-manage your life - and they'll muck it up, like they always do.
    Not surprising, since they all live in cities, do drugs, sleep around like nearsighted rabbits in heat, and have no idea what goes into maintaining their bohemian way of life, and they all think that we're ignorant hicks - how ARROGANT! They don't even TRY to understand or learn.
    The military - well, sometimes I don't particularly care for what they do, I might not understand everything they are called on to respond to, but like the fire department, ambulance crew, or the police, they put their lives on the line to protect us, and that's a noble and respectable thing. I'm honored to have my children serving the community like that. I hope they come home safely, but thank god there are people so noble and honorable to put their very lives on the line there to protect us!

    Omm.. Omm.. I will now channel Great-Great-twenty-times-removed Aunt Shirley's pet cat from Atlantis.. Omm..

  8. #58
    Cyburbian Mud Princess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Downtown
    I know. and this is what makes me so incredibly sad.... at least in 2000, I had the righteous indignation - we wuz robbed! - it's only four years, yada yada. But now... the majority of this country DID vote for bush, indicating that they're happy with where he's taken/taking us.

    PS - Elisabeth - i'm enjoying your increased postings.
    I'm a little late getting into this, but DITTO all of the above.

    We've been having a little discussion around the dinner table about the outcome of the presidential election. I'm having a hard time accepting it. I just can't believe that so much of the country is accepting of this administration's policies.

    I saw a bumper sticker this morning that said "PROUD TO BE AMERICAN", and y'know what? I felt sad.

  9. #59
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    There seems to be a noticeable difference between urban and rural areas. Areas with large metropolitan areas voted for Kerry and in rural areas they voted for Bush. It is simple, the people who live in these rural areas have a small town frame of mind. They believe that God is more important than the country, that they like the money that Bush put in their pocket a few years ago, and more importantly they feel that they can relate to Bush much better. Kerry did not show much emotion until today, and I think that hurt him. He should have showed his human side sooner.
    If you're not growing, you're dying. - Lou Holtz

  10. #60
    Cyburbian H's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    and more importantly they feel that they can relate to Bush much better. Kerry did not show much emotion until today, and I think that hurt him. He should have showed his human side sooner.
    I think you say a lot here. Bush seemed more 'real'... at least to the most people that I talked with here. Kerry had good ideas, but just seemed so removed...

    ...I just could not relate to Kerry, but would love to sit and chat with Bush anytime

  11. #61
    Cyburbian Richmond Jake's avatar
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    I gotta put in a good word for the south. I think I come from an unusual set of circumstance because I was born and raised in coastal northern California and spent the last two years in north Idaho. There are just as many racists and bigots in those two states as there are here in Florida (where I've been since early this summer), in fact, maybe more so (come on, BKM, you've seen those 4x4 driving, green-toothed, sugar beet farmers from the central valley. Maybe not per capita, but they're there). And Idaho? Need I say more? (Although the area I left is improving (according to my sons, high temps in the 40's the last 10 days...hehehe.))

    Since I've moved to the redneck riviera I haven't experinced any of the things I've seen even in the most "liberal" sections of California where I've lived. No one is beating my head with the Bible or forcing me to give up my unborn for adoption rather than my planned abortion ( ). I can remember not long after I moved here, talking to my mom on the phone and her asking me about 'southern hospitality'. And I responded that, yes, there is truth to this...not a myth. My conclusion is this: the south is not what all of you out west think it is.
    Annoyingly insensitive

  12. #62
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by ricepg
    Well I live in the south and also happen to lean toward the Democratic party, so I'll toss my opinion in.

    Elisabeth said that, "I'd believe that there are a lot of intelligent people living in the south, but I also think the majority of south still holds on to archaic stereotypes regarding people living north of them. In this respect, I feel justified saying the majority of, not all, southerners were quick to vote for the guy the most readily identify with--a stupid man from Texas (in my opinion)."

    I personally find this statement hypocritical. It seems that you are suggesting that southerners identify with "stupid" yet you criticize southerners as holding archaic stereotypes about northerners. Are the majority of people in the other 30 or so states that voted for Bush stupid as well? Perhaps Ohio, Colorado, and Arizona are the new, Mississippi, Georgia, and Tennessee.
    I'm sorry if I offended in any way, but I will defend my statement. I didn't make a broad generalization and I didn't say people in the south were stupid, if you actually read my statement. I still think the President is pretty stupid, but I think a lot of people in the south identify with him because he holds similar values and they can relate to him because he's somewhat simple--all stupidity aside. We're all subject to regional stereotypes, there's no way around it. Bottomline, no one should vote for a candidate without devoting serious thought to the matter.

    Secondly, I think Mississippi, Georgia and Tennessee are also in the south. Ohio, well, I have family there and one person waited 3.5 hours in line at a polling place with 6 booths--ridiculous. And the other tried to vote TWICE but my 2 year old nephew wasn't too happy after waiting in line for 2 hours and then again later on for 2.5 hours. They need more polling places and I think Kerry would have won there if they made voting a little more convienent/easy for people. And in regards to Arizona and Colorado--same goes for the south--they voted for who they most clearly identified with. I also think a lot of these states were swayed by the fear factor associated with 9/11.

    I mean, I really don't like the President, but I think he's so entertaining to watch. I love the intense look he gets on his face when he's trying to think of something to say--it's like watching a little kid who's just learning to speak. I just want to interject and say, "Use your words, Georgie!" Plus, he's pretty personable--he waved to me once when I lived in DC (of course, I gave a half-assed quizzical wave back...)!

    But I also think the media and how they choose to portray a candidate can influence so many people. And the media tends to make the President out to be jovial, go with the flow kind of guy, but certainly not the sharpest tack. I think the media also made Kerry out to be somewhat cold--and he kind of comes across that way too. He doesn't have the same warm personality that the President has and the media criticized him for that and made him into the stuck up Bostonian with the wealthy wife. Sadly, that may or may not be the case. And maybe W isn't as dumb as we all think he is (but I'm pretty sure he is). Point being, we can only make judgements on what we're given--there's no proof that it's real or valid. I could get philosophical with this but I'll spare everyone.

    My AP American History teacher in high school made an interesting point that has always stayed with me. He said that if Abraham Lincoln ran for President today he wouldn't have won because he wouldn't be "pretty" enough. There's a lot of truth behind that statement if you think about the power of the modern media.

    All of the aformentioned is why I think the south and other red states voted for Bush. I don't believe we should up and move to Canada or Europe (though London, Galway or the Amalfi Coast would be lovely). That would be like me giving up on the Yankees just because they lost the ALCS to the Red Sox. And that's just not kosher, kids.

  13. #63
    Cyburbian
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    The point above is fundamentally tone deaf. The personal hatred of the President and the constant vitriol calling him "stupid" undermines credibility.

    Unfortunately there is a lot of sour grapes here.

    Argue the facts.

    The President carried the south and heartland because they identify with his convictions, his belief in god, his love for his wife and family as well as policy issues like a strong military, less government, the sanctity of life etc....These people are not stupid. Heck they don't think people who supported Kerry are stupid not do i.

    They didn't identify with Kerry in many ways, including his embrace of Hollywood types (see Michael Moore and P Diddy), his lack of clarity on partial birth, and his inability to persuade people of his faith.

    I think we are all better served if we understand why the heartland votes as it does and how in the future the democratic party will embrace or move further away.

  14. #64

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    Quote Originally posted by RichmondJake
    Since I've moved to the redneck riviera I haven't experinced any of the things I've seen even in the most "liberal" sections of California where I've lived. No one is beating my head with the Bible or forcing me to give up my unborn for adoption rather than my planned abortion ( ). I can remember not long after I moved here, talking to my mom on the phone and her asking me about 'southern hospitality'. And I responded that, yes, there is truth to this...not a myth. My conclusion is this: the south is not what all of you out west think it is.
    Idaho is not culturally the coast at all, imo. Not a criticism, just an observation. Most of the Mountain West States went for Bush.

    If you talk de-facto segregation versus de jure, I would almost argue that the worst de facto apartheid in the United States today occurs in California-i.e., the migrant farmworker population that lives in horrible poverty and undefined legal status. So, I am not meaning to sound too smug (besides, I'm an ex-Hoosier, anyway).

    As for southern hospitality, I don't find Californians rude per se, just very, very "indifferent." Southerners are warmer and friendlier (I lived in Tennessee for two years and have a UVA Grad Degree). On the other hand, I don't find Indiana very friendly at all. In particular, my home town, Fort Wayne, is amazingly class consciouss and snobby. I don't miss anything but the housing prices, to be honest. I would rather live in Virginia or North Carolina (exception: Madison, Indiana was pretty sweet). Florida-don't like the beach culture/retirement mecca culture. It may have good weather, but not much else intellectually or culturally. Just my preference, of course. Some people love the Florida beaches.

  15. #65

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    Quote Originally posted by gkmo62u
    The point above is fundamentally tone deaf. The personal hatred of the President and the constant vitriol calling him "stupid" undermines credibility.

    Unfortunately there is a lot of sour grapes here.

    Argue the facts.

    The President carried the south and heartland because they identify with his convictions, his belief in god, his love for his wife and family as well as policy issues like a strong military, less government, the sanctity of life etc....These people are not stupid. Heck they don't think people who supported Kerry are stupid not do i.

    They didn't identify with Kerry in many ways, including his embrace of Hollywood types (see Michael Moore and P Diddy), his lack of clarity on partial birth, and his inability to persuade people of his faith.

    I think we are all better served if we understand why the heartland votes as it does and how in the future the democratic party will embrace or move further away.
    You make some good points. I don't find him "stupid" at all and quickly became irritated with that line of smug thinking and talking. Americans are culturally not very positive toward "intellectuals." I dislike that cultural trait, but you are certainly right about it.

    My fear, and it is a legitimate fear, is that there is an underlying agenda. There are too many Bush officials tied to the Rushdoony and Christian Reconstructionist movements. Religion is fine. A hard-line Protestant Dominionist state is not. I could not live under such a state. Read Handmaiden's Tale-or the wildly popular Left Behind series.

  16. #66
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    Interestingly, I have lived in Illinois, Kentucky, Kansas, Tennessee, Virginia, Wisconsin and now Colorado. My observation is that the majority of people in all of these places are normal, decent, reasonably intelligent folks. There are slight differences. Tennesseans are more friendly. Virginians are a little more religious. Wisonsinners are somewaht more progressive. Coloradans are healthier. All of these are generalizations, though. People are more or less the same everywhere. Let's stop attacking the south and focus our attention elsewhere - like California! (Seriously, what is it with Californians who move to other states and then act like they are superior to everyone else? Leave the California attitude behind!)
    Anyone want to adopt a dog?

  17. #67

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    Quote Originally posted by Cardinal
    Interestingly, I have lived in Illinois, Kentucky, Kansas, Tennessee, Virginia, Wisconsin and now Colorado. My observation is that the majority of people in all of these places are normal, decent, reasonably intelligent folks. There are slight differences. Tennesseans are more friendly. Virginians are a little more religious. Wisonsinners are somewaht more progressive. Coloradans are healthier. All of these are generalizations, though. People are more or less the same everywhere. Let's stop attacking the south and focus our attention elsewhere - like California! (Seriously, what is it with Californians who move to other states and then act like they are superior to everyone else? Leave the California attitude behind!)
    Hey, as long as they do MOVE AWAY. There are too many people here.

  18. #68
    (Seriously, what is it with Californians who move to other states and then act like they are superior to everyone else? Leave the California attitude behind!)
    Amen! At the same time tough sh*t, I want as many Californians to leave ASAP!! I find many Californians in NoCal/L.A. to be holier than thou types and lets face it this state is as class conscious as anywhere in this country. As for racist and general jack ass culture, ride your bike down the West coast of the U.S. and you'll meet every stereotypical backwoods a**hole imaginable in the rural parts. You'll meet lots of really good helpful people too!

    Caslifornia Bashing]

    Edit: California is a red state as well. Kerry 55%, bUSH 44%
    lOOK AT ALL THE RED ON THIS MAP!

    http://network.ap.org/dynamic/files/...CTION=POLITICS

  19. #69
    Cyburbian
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    BKM

    I understand your concerns but don't think the influence is as powerful as you suggest.

    Its likely I could not live in that state either--I am a good catholic boy so i definitely do not always agree with positions taken by christian evangelicals.

    I perceive the hostility toward intellectuals (academic, media, etc..) is real and appropriate in many instances as it is those same intellectuals who misunderstand the vaules of middle america.

  20. #70

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    Quote Originally posted by gkmo62u
    BKM

    I understand your concerns but don't think the influence is as powerful as you suggest.

    Its likely I could not live in that state either--I am a good catholic boy so i definitely do not always agree with positions taken by christian evangelicals.

    I perceive the hostility toward intellectuals (academic, media, etc..) is real and appropriate in many instances as it is those same intellectuals who misunderstand the vaules of middle america.
    Let's hope so. The prblem is, they are COMMITTED to their cause and use stealth candidates. My fear is that it will indeed be incremental, slow, and hidden.

    Again, I have no kids, so why am I so worried? Let the fundies' children live with the results of their parents' paranoia. Middle America won't exist, because the same politicians who pander to their "moral" concerns are selling the country down the road of fiscal and economic ruin.

  21. #71
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by gkmo62u
    The point above is fundamentally tone deaf. The personal hatred of the President and the constant vitriol calling him "stupid" undermines credibility.

    Unfortunately there is a lot of sour grapes here.

    Argue the facts.

    The President carried the south and heartland because they identify with his convictions, his belief in god, his love for his wife and family as well as policy issues like a strong military, less government, the sanctity of life etc....These people are not stupid. Heck they don't think people who supported Kerry are stupid not do i.

    They didn't identify with Kerry in many ways, including his embrace of Hollywood types (see Michael Moore and P Diddy), his lack of clarity on partial birth, and his inability to persuade people of his faith.

    I think we are all better served if we understand why the heartland votes as it does and how in the future the democratic party will embrace or move further away.
    I know for a fact that there are stupid people everywhere, all over the world--it's not localized! Contrary to your interpretation, I harbor no hatred towards the President--I don't agree with his policies, but I have every right to disagree and question him. Also, I have argued the facts in prior posts and don't feel the need to reiterate my position on the subject. Iím not sure how I lack credibility because I think the President is stupid. Itís an opinion based on the Presidentís performance and actions. I believe that the President is not the best man for the job and after listening to his ideas in carefully crafted speeches as compared to when he has to answer questions off the cuff, I believe I'm entitled to my opinion that the President is not the most intelligent person. Case and point, the presidential debates.

    Am I wrong to expect nothing but the best for our country? Is this the best we have? I highly doubt it. But the majority of people felt he was the best for right now. I can't change that, but I refuse to be a lemming and embrace it. Kerry wasn't the best candidate either, I'll fully admit that, but, at this point, I would have taken him over another four years with Bush. Obama in 2012!


    As a graduate of Catholic University, I know plenty of people who supported John Kerry--primarily, the DNC chairman, Terry McAulffie, also a CU alum. I also know a lot of Catholics who support Bush, including the RNC chairman, Ed Gillespie, another CU alum. Elections shouldn't boil down to religion. We have separation of Church and state and I fear that means less and less with every passing day.

    I do agree with your closing statement, though. We need to figure out what's going on in the midwest and south and find out why a northern democrat can't get elected.

    And, on that note, I'm done with the political threads. Thank you.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    Well, the South can certainly NOT be blamed for the nomination of a tone deaf candidate who ran one of the feeblest campaigns in recent history.

    It's also unfair to tag the south alone with the theocracy label. Every major exit along Interestate 69 between Fort Wayne and Indianapolis, Indiana had another religion-based university. Needless to say, Indiana was indeed a Red State, as always. And, I'm saying this without judgement, just observation.
    I agree. People in Indiana have no room to talk about the south. Indiana was one of the first states to be declared for W. Further, it is the most mindlessly conservative state next to Utah. Indiana only saving grace, as always, is its people.


    ________
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  23. #73
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by RichmondJake
    There are just as many racists and bigots in those two states as ..in Florida ..maybe more so
    (come on, BKM, you've seen those 4x4 driving, green-toothed, sugar beet farmers from the central valley. Maybe not per capita, but they're there).
    Exactly why would driving a 4x4 and looking like you aren't from the city equate to racism??? I see far more racism and bigotry, both covert and overt, from the liberal intellectual crowd, person for person, than I have ever seen in a rural area. That's not a north/south thing, it's an urban/rural thing, just as silly and wrong.

  24. #74

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    Quote Originally posted by JusticeZero
    Exactly why would driving a 4x4 and looking like you aren't from the city equate to racism??? I see far more racism and bigotry, both covert and overt, from the liberal intellectual crowd, person for person, than I have ever seen in a rural area. That's not a north/south thing, it's an urban/rural thing, just as silly and wrong.
    I am bothered by that Constitutional vote in Alabama, though. I can't even imagine Indiana going for something like that-even as a symbolic gesture. I guess I still see de jure bigotry as a bigger problem than anecdotal bigotry by individuals.



    However, this is devolving into a "You're worse. No You're worse." thing. Pointless, in the end. There are bigots across the regional and economic spectrum.

    As one of the contributors/instigators , might I suggest that this thread has run its useful course?

  25. #75
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    I am sometimes struck by a similarity when I hear people call George Bush "stupid." That similarity? Richard J. Daley, one of America's greatest political figures. He stumbled over his words and regularly failed to impress people who met him, but was one of the shrewdest politicians of the 20th Century. Even at the height of my conservative republican zeal (now all but gone) I admired Daley. Read Michael Royko's "The Boss."
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