Urban planning community

+ Reply to thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 63

Thread: A mid-size city with no parking lots

  1. #1
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2003
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    713

    A mid-size city with no parking lots

    A Victorian grid city of mostly two and three story buildings with a zone of skyscrapers and no parking lots (therefore complete):




  2. #2
    Member
    Registered
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Dayton, Ohio
    Posts
    230
    Are we supposed to guess the city? Id say Perth, Western Australia.

  3. #3
    Suspended Bad Email Address teshadoh's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Boulder, CO
    Posts
    427
    Welll.... he did say 'Victorian', so I would assume he's reffering to a city in Victoria province of Australia. But I realize I really don't know what I'm talking about - so I have no idea.

    But that city - it's, how should I say it - perfect (for me at least). Not massive, but what looks like a lively active downtown that isn't dominated by skyscrapers or skyscraping parking decks. Plus the lake / bay with massive park land - & single family neighborhoods surrounding it all.

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Dayton, Ohio
    Posts
    230
    Quote Originally posted by teshadoh
    .... Plus the lake / bay with massive park land - & single family neighborhoods surrounding it all.
    yeah, but if its Perth, watch out for the salt water alligators.

    (the river would be the Swan estuary, I think)

  5. #5
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
    Registered
    Jun 2003
    Location
    at the neighboring pub
    Posts
    5,330
    That is a really attractive city.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  6. #6
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2003
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    713
    Quote Originally posted by Suburb Repairman
    That is a really attractive city.
    That's what most people say who live there and who visit. Trouble is, it's over 1500 miles to the next city.

  7. #7
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
    Registered
    May 2003
    Location
    City of Low Low Wages!
    Posts
    3,236
    Yeah, it's Perth:


  8. #8
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
    Registered
    May 2003
    Location
    City of Low Low Wages!
    Posts
    3,236
    To be fair, there are small parking lots in those pictures (and what looks like a very large one near that bridge). But I think what's got Ablarc all happy is the Perth Parking Policy:

    http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/planning/parking/

  9. #9
    Suspended Bad Email Address teshadoh's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Boulder, CO
    Posts
    427
    Then if may ask a dumb question - how is a 'Victorian Grid' defined? Is this referring to a specific street block size?

  10. #10
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2003
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    713
    Nice find, jordan. And don't forget Perth's terrific commuter rail system: http://www.perthweb.net.au/transport/trains.shtml

    Teshadoh, it's Victorian and it's a grid, not a "Victorian grid." I should have inserted a comma.

    But come to think of it, there might be such a thing after all. Back Bay and New York's Madison Plan share certain qualities, and Perth seems to have them too: attenuated blocks much longer about one axis than the other, and a hierarchy of streets. I think the grid that follows the Ringstrasse's travels also looks like that. Maybe jordan would like to weigh in on Chicago, which was built on a grid in the Victorian era.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
    Registered
    May 2003
    Location
    City of Low Low Wages!
    Posts
    3,236
    Quote Originally posted by ablarc
    But come to think of it, there might be such a thing after all. Back Bay and New York's Madison Plan share certain qualities, and Perth seems to have them too: attenuated blocks much longer about one axis than the other, and a hierarchy of streets. I think the grid that follows the Ringstrasse's travels also looks like that. Maybe jordan would like to weigh in on Chicago, which was built on a grid in the Victorian era.
    Sure. Grids were square in the early 1800s. Chicago was originally plotted on a square grid in the 1830s, and that grid still exists downtown.

    According to City of the Century by Donald Miller (pp 81, 82), the grid, last used by the Romans, came back into style when William Penn plotted Philadelphia out on a rectangular grid.

    Chicago's square grid goes rectangular near the borders of the original City of Chicago, whose western edge was just past Ashland avenue. That border was extended to Western Avenue in 1847. The area between Ashland and Western is rectangular, but between Ashland and Downtown is square. So Chicago's grid probably went rectangular in the mid to late 1840s. I imagine that happened when people realized how much land all of those extra streets were consuming. I have no idea why it wasn't gridded rectangularly before that as there is precedent in Philedelphia. I presume fire zone wasn't regridded to be rectangular in the aftermath of 1871 because it'd have confused ownership proceedings.

    Chicago was gridded, according to Miller, "because it was the easiest way to survey and divide land for quick sale and profit," and that that was the motive in all western cities including San Francisco where slavish loyality to the grid produced hilarious and dangerous results.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2003
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    713
    Quote Originally posted by jordanb
    ...and that that was the motive in all western cities including San Francisco where slavish loyality to the grid produced hilarious and dangerous results.
    ...and, he might have added, delightful results. That "mistake" is the very essence of San Francisco's character; without it, SFO would be just another damaged American city, with affordable real estate, parking lots, and the usual population of philistines and lard-asses.

    We could do with a few more such hilarious mistakes. Come to think of it, there's probably always a better way to do something than by the book--particularly in city planning, where the book is so full of $hit.

  13. #13
    Cirrus's avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2003
    Location
    DC / Arlington
    Posts
    299
    How' does that highway interact with the city? Does it cut downtown off from the neighborhoods? And speaking of the riverfront park, is it active? I'm certainly not impressed by the parking lots along it.

    Not trying to bash... Just trying to get a more detailed mental picture. The lack of urban renewal-era speculator parking is refreshing.

  14. #14
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2003
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    713
    Quote Originally posted by Cirrus
    How' does that highway interact with the city? Does it cut downtown off from the neighborhoods? And speaking of the riverfront park, is it active? I'm certainly not impressed by the parking lots...
    You can read aerial photos well enough to see that that highway interacts with the city to about the same extent as the Peripherique interacts with Paris; it provides a boundary. The unimpressive parking lots could be thought of as impressive for their meagerness. How would that scene look if it were say, Cincinnati?

    We are such tireless seekers after perfection! We seize upon a freeway interchange at a city’s periphery and two isolated parking lots. Are we forgetting that at least one city has in its history looked like this?:



    An extreme example, to be sure, but truth is, most American cities have more in common with that photo than they do with Perth.

    What place is perfect?

    http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...alia+city+plan

  15. #15
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
    Registered
    May 2003
    Location
    City of Low Low Wages!
    Posts
    3,236
    ^-- That's the result of so-called "land banking" though, not trying to provide space for automobiles. The parking lots are simply placeholders until a different use can be found. The "Banking" is done to combine lots and create large developable areas piecemeal as buisness and residents are slowly run out, rather than by evicting and razing neighborhoods all at once. The result is more or less the same but the former is much more politically acceptable.

  16. #16
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2003
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    713
    Quote Originally posted by jordanb
    ^-- That's the result of so-called "land banking" though, not trying to provide space for automobiles. The parking lots are simply placeholders until a different use can be found. The "Banking" is done to combine lots and create large developable areas piecemeal as buisness and residents are slowly run out, rather than by evicting and razing neighborhoods all at once. The result is more or less the same but the former is much more politically acceptable.
    Land banking is probably the single most pernicious term in planners' dismal lexicon.

    Reminds me of the "pacification" of Vietnam.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian Breed's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Not Cliff Island, Maine :(
    Posts
    589
    Quote Originally posted by ablarc
    Land banking is probably the single most pernicious term in planners' dismal lexicon.

    Reminds me of the "pacification" of Vietnam.
    You must be fun to have at parties.

    So how does land banking compare to a embarassing nation-dividing war involving the death of hundreds of thousands of people in the name of defeating an economic system that was largely falling apart?
    Every time I look at a Yankees hat I see a swastika tilted just a little off kilter.
    Bill "Spaceman" Lee

  18. #18
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
    Registered
    May 2003
    Location
    City of Low Low Wages!
    Posts
    3,236
    I think his problem is that it's highly euphemistic. "Banking" is really forcing undesirables out of their neighborhoods by slowly destroying the urban fabric. The more the neighborhood is "banked," the worse the quality of life is and the lower the property value. In fact, a municipality patient enough to "bank" a neighborhood will probably end up saving a lot of money over outright condemnation and “urban renewal” because the last guy to leave gets taken to the cleaners.

  19. #19
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2003
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    713
    Quote Originally posted by jordanb
    I think his problem is that it's highly euphemistic. "Banking" is really forcing undesirables out of their neighborhoods by slowly destroying the urban fabric. The more the neighborhood is "banked," the worse the quality of life is and the lower the property value. In fact, a municipality patient enough to "bank" a neighborhood will probably end up saving a lot of money over outright condemnation and “urban renewal” because the last guy to leave gets taken to the cleaners.
    The city I live in has a formal land-banking policy. It means that the city is perpetually one-third not there. The time will never come when the city is complete. It's like leaving a third of Dresden permanently in ruins. The demolished areas migrate, but they're always present. It also means that the city never actually heals up to function the way a real city does. Analogous would be to make sure that a patient always had a bullet in him somewhere in order to keep him permanently in the hospital.

    Proof that this policy is not an integral and necessary part of the redevelopment process is provided by every European city.


    Euphemism allows folly to masquerade as wisdom: like so much that planners do.

    (Check out the other euphemisms in the planner's wordbook; that could be the subject of another thread.)
    Last edited by ablarc; 30 Dec 2004 at 12:48 PM.

  20. #20
    Cirrus's avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2003
    Location
    DC / Arlington
    Posts
    299
    We are such tireless seekers after perfection! We seize upon a freeway interchange at a city’s periphery and two isolated parking lots. Are we forgetting that at least one city has in its history looked like this?:
    Ah, come on. I said it was nice and refreshing... But I'm not just going to heap unqualified praise on a place based on two pictures that look better than Houston in the 1970s.

    It's entirely possible Perth is the most beautiful city on the planet. I really don't know with only two pictures. That's why I asked for more information!

  21. #21

    Registered
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Solano County, California
    Posts
    6,468
    Quote Originally posted by ablarc
    ...and, he might have added, delightful results. That "mistake" is the very essence of San Francisco's character; without it, SFO would be just another damaged American city, with affordable real estate, parking lots, and the usual population of philistines and lard-asses.
    Ah, I had just hit the reply key to jordanb's post when I noticed you had the same reaction.

    And, even from a rational transportation and wayfinding perspecitve: I much prefer SF's fractured grid and steep streets to, for example, the utterly confusing spaghetti pattern of a Pittsburgh or Cincinatti (as delightful in other ways as those cities certainly are. God they are confusing!)

    Quote Originally posted by jordanb
    ^-- That's the result of so-called "land banking" though, not trying to provide space for automobiles. The parking lots are simply placeholders until a different use can be found. The "Banking" is done to combine lots and create large developable areas piecemeal as buisness and residents are slowly run out, rather than by evicting and razing neighborhoods all at once. The result is more or less the same but the former is much more politically acceptable.
    But too often, in cities that are struggling to maintain their core, the value from parking lots is greater than most of the marginal "slummy" land uses that were cleared to create those clean "land banks." (Cleveland, Ohio comes to mind. Does anyone believe those parking lots will be quickly redeveloped?) Plus, this kind of land banking encourages/necessitates large scale, pernicious suburban style mega-projects-which I still find undesirable no matter the temporary blip in sales tax revenues.
    Last edited by Tranplanner; 31 Dec 2004 at 9:07 AM.

  22. #22
    Cyburbian Hceux's avatar
    Registered
    Oct 2003
    Location
    In Wasteland of Cedar Trees
    Posts
    1,028
    Quote Originally posted by ablarc
    Are we forgetting that at least one city has in its history looked like this?:

    ablarc, I'm curious to know where is this picture taken. I'm stunned to see a picture with that much space being left for parking lots. Can you share the secret?

  23. #23
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2003
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    713
    Hceux, that was Houston about 30 years ago.

  24. #24
          mentarman's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2003
    Location
    St. Louis, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    146
    Quote Originally posted by jordanb
    ^-- That's the result of so-called "land banking" though, not trying to provide space for automobiles. The parking lots are simply placeholders until a different use can be found.
    Seems like most of the lots are full, though. Where are all those people working?

  25. #25
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2003
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    713
    Quote Originally posted by mentarman
    Seems like most of the lots are full, though. Where are all those people working?
    Mentarman, the way that works in my city, which has similar places, is that the further you get from anything at all, the lower the parking fee. That's what accounts for the fact that some very remote lots have cars in them before better-placed lots are completely full.

    Pleasant walk.

+ Reply to thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 ... LastLast

More at Cyburbia

  1. Parking space size
    Design, Space, and Place
    Replies: 11
    Last post: 29 Jul 2011, 10:40 PM
  2. Replies: 34
    Last post: 17 Oct 2007, 3:40 PM
  3. Rear parking lots unsafe?
    Design, Space, and Place
    Replies: 27
    Last post: 07 Jun 2007, 8:22 PM
  4. Parking Parking space size
    Land Use and Zoning
    Replies: 51
    Last post: 19 Feb 2007, 7:01 PM