Bush plans sharp cuts in HUD community efforts

[Repo Man]

Anyone who has worked for or been involved with a mid-to-large sized City or County knows that there are so many ill-conceived economic development programs, employment centers, and jobs initiatives that there is room for cutting them while mainting an adequate level of service. In addition, there are endless loans and grants issued that no bank would ever touch due to foolish business ideas and horrible credit. As budgets at all levels are stretched to the limit, government is going to have to look at consolidation and elimination of services and programs. Does a City need 30 different job centers with 5-10 staffers at each, or would it be better served having 4 centers with 10-15 staffers? Does a city need 30 different grant and loan programs or would 5-10 programs covering a variety of things be better? People love to scream and shout when you propose cutting programs for the poor because it makes good headlines, but a lot of times these programs are overloaded with bureaucracy, corruption, and fiscal mismanagement.

With that being said, if we dedicated all if the money being used in Iraq to domestic programs? During his campaign for Senate, Barrack Obama was interviewed and he said that voters have to decide if they want schools being built in Iraq with our tax dollars or schools here in the US.” The same can be said about economic development. Should money be spent helping poor people in Iraq or here? Rebuilding homes in Iraq or providing housing programs here? Do we need to go back to the moon or to Mars or could that money be better spent elsewhere.

It is painfully obvious where this administration stands

[New2daGame]

What his boss tells him to say?

LOL. Ofcourse, he's probably going to say what he's been told to say now. I expect him to be a team player. I just wonder if he really agrees with the proposed changes and cuts.

[Belle]

Then they should move to Tennessee or Kansas. Life is full of choices, these people are the victims of their choices. Period.

How does a person/family who is barely keeping their head above water find the money to pay for moving expenses? And for security deposits, utility deposits, etc. at the other end?

If only it were that simple. *sigh*

[Chet]

How does a person/family who is barely keeping their head above water find the money to pay for moving expenses? And for security deposits, utility deposits, etc. at the other end?

If only it were that simple. *sigh*

HMMM Lets see. Hundreds to thousands do it every year coming here from Mexico, and they face more danger in doing so. Can Boston to Memphis be any worse?

Lazy Americans can't even immigrate right anymore.

[Cardinal]

Lazy Americans can't even immigrate right anymore.

My first thought was that this needs a smily after it.

DONE! -Chet

My second thought was that it is sort of true. People who are serious about improving their conditions do look around them for better opportunities, and move there. That is certainly true of the Mexicans and other immigrants who come here. They want to work, do work hard, and pursue the American dream more so than many Americans.

My third thought was that these immigrants come here because they have knowledge of America as a place to succeed, and likely have personal recommendations on places to go. In short, they are better educated about the economic opportunities in America than many Americans may be.

My fourth thought was that it may be cheaper to live in Alabama or Mississippi or North Dakota, but I would not want to live there.

[Breed]

Unfortunately, a lot of native Bostonians have moved out of New England in order to survive. It is my opinion that suggesting a family relocate to an unfamiliar area because they are not affluent is an incremental way to address affordable housing.

That's why my wife and I left DC. After college, I received an offer from a county in norhtern VA and one in SC. Surprisingly, all the offers were $1,000 of each other. We went to SC where we can afford to live. I have a relative who makes almost twice as much as me in northern VA but lives at home because they can't afford a place of their own.

[Cardinal]

That's why my wife and I left DC. After college, I received an offer from a county in norhtern VA and one in SC. Surprisingly, all the offers were $1,000 of each other. We went to SC where we can afford to live. I have a relative who makes almost twice as much as me in northern VA but lives at home because they can't afford a place of their own.

Very true. When I moved from Illinois to Wisconsin ten years ago I took a $4,000 cut in pay, and ended up recovering that just in the cost of housing. When I moved from Wisconsin to Colorado I got a $30,000 bump in pay. After my new mortgage payment I end up with just about the same amount of discretionary income as I had in Wisconsin.

[pete-rock]

HMMM Lets see. Hundreds to thousands do it every year coming here from Mexico, and they face more danger in doing so. Can Boston to Memphis be any worse?

Lazy Americans can't even immigrate right anymore.

That's not completely true.

I recently saw a Brookings Insitute article by a demographer from the University of Michigan, and he said that one trend evident from the 2000 Census was that African-Americans are returning in greater numbers to the South, from the Northeast and Midwest. Granted, at this point he says most are empty-nesters and the elderly wishing to return to the places they grew up in, but he did say that this trend is likely to continue.

When I find the link, I'll post it.

[jordanb]

I know a lot of immigrants, and a massive majority (probably upwards of 95% of them) choose where to move to based on if there's family there or not. That's the only determining factor. If you're looking to get out of Poland and you've got an uncle in Chicago, you move to Chicago. And that's why the ethnic ghettos form.

It makes sense too. If you have family there, they can provide housing for you, help you get work, and all that. It's quite a bit different than just plopping down in the middle of a foreign land with no support structure at all.

Actually many immigrants I've asked are pretty disillusioned with America. They come here because the international opinion is still that this is the land of milk and honey. And American culture is so pervasive in the rest of the world that it makes it feel like this place is the center of the earth. So they get here, find out that life here really is hard if you're at the bottom of the ladder, and realize they should have tried to find an uncle in Western Europe.

But anyway, it's an unfair parallel to talk about moving from another country (usually into a large ethnic support system) and moving across the country to a foreign city with none of that.

[pete-rock]

Actually many immigrants I've asked are pretty disillusioned with America. They come here because the international opinion is still that this is the land of milk and honey. And American culture is so pervasive in the rest of the world that it makes it feel like this place is the center of the earth. So they get here, find out that life here really is hard if you're at the bottom of the ladder, and realize they should have tried to find an uncle in Western Europe.

A Polish immigrant who went to grad school with me in the late '80s was completely disillusioned and went back to Poland. She said that she couldn't see how Americans could reconcile in their minds the wealth disparity.

She was also part of the Solidarity movement in Poland before coming here, and thought that American unions were awful.

[Man With a Plan]

to the Planning profession?

[boilerplater]

Regarding Chet's comments, it boggles mymind how someone with such hip tastes in music can be so un-hip in attitude towards housing the poor

But since our expensive metropolitan areas need low-wage earners to do the service jobs, where should they go? If they are out in the hinterlands they will have to make the social imposition of a long commute, which has its own costs like traffic congestion, pollution, costs to the individual in fuel and wear and tear on the car, etc. We either have to give them a place to live or raise wages so they can have a decent place to live. Its nice to think that adversity produces character, but it also produces despair, crime and substance abuse.

[Chet]

[snip]We either have to give them a place to live or raise wages so they can have a decent place to live.[/snip]

Well I'd rather pay more for my Royale With Cheese, and more for refuse collection, etc. than dump money into another bureacratic federal program chocked full of waste.

[Gedunker]

Well I'd rather pay more for my Royale With Cheese, and more for refuse collection, etc. than dump money into another bureacratic federal program chocked full of waste.

I have to point out that this grantee, at least, has averaged nearly 100% low-mod benefit over the past five years. The paltry sum we get from HUD can demonstrably be shown to primarily benefit low-mods. The $60,000 we lose in entitlement funds isn't going to make the slightest dent in the deficit spending of this president, but it will make an impact on the local scene.

[Chet]

Point well taken, Gedunker. Too many people forget that, no matter how much money we throw at these programs, there will always be 10% of the population that are less wealthy than the other 90%.

[BKM]

Well I'd rather pay more for my Royale With Cheese, and more for refuse collection, etc. than dump money into another bureacratic federal program chocked full of waste.

That's not the real option "we" are being given though. The option chosen byt the scary nutcases in power is to dump billions to create "democracy" in a quagmre descending into utter chaos.

Or billions on a "missile defense" system that has never shown any progress at all towards even hitting a target emitting the electronic equivalent of "here I am hit me right here"-let alone real weaponry or a nuclear bomb carried in a suitcase.

Or doing sole source contracting. Now, even if Haliburton is "the best" at what they do (arguable, but let's grant that for the sake of this argument), even pro-Cheney people have to admit that the administration of these contracts has been laughably lax. Oh.... our Vice President's profits from the Big H are bing funelled into a trust fund, but we can still trust him, right?

This country wastes so much money on so many foolish military things that I find utterly laughable the idea that HUD is somehow the big part of our deficit. You wanna cut pork, let's be honest where the pork is.

[Man With a Plan]

Not only are cuts proposed for housing, but also for economic development and other planning programs as well. This appears to be an attack on our profession. Billions of dollars cut from planning programs would have a great impact on our field as we are not one of the more funded activities.

[jordanb]

Section 8 is the only thing keeping us from having shantitowns.

[BKM]

Ah, but remember, in the Ownership Society, they will OWN those shanties, by God.

To be honest, I've often thought we should allow shanty towns. Given that we need what limited public funds there are for spreading democracy to grateful, flower-waving foreigners, and given that we are addicted to cheap labor (we demand Always Low Prices and (traditionally expensive) red meat everyday-that means cheap labor folks), while at the same continuously raising standards in building codes, planning requirements, and the like....Something has to give. It's either five familes in one house, or a "free-fire zone. where planning and building rules are ignored. We (the middle classes and above) want the benefits of a third world proletariate, then we certainly shouldn't complain when they set up camps next to our gated subdivsions, should we? Let the "free market" rule. Who cares about a few tenement fires and disease epidemics? We can somehow insulate ourselves in small enclaves, while getting them 99 cent pairs of blue jeans! We should also eliminate all border controls, because we need to impoverish our own working class. That'll bring back American manufacturing once our workers are payed Haitian level wages!!!

[Cardinal]

Ah, but remember, in the Ownership Society, they will OWN those shanties, by God.

You have to remember that with the Bush administration, the objective is to reward the rich. Rent vouchers given to poor people do not fit the bill. Instead, handouts to rich people to build affordable housing are more in line with that goal.

[michaelskis]

As a conservative... I still think that this is a stupid freakin idea. I do think that HUD should be revamped because I have seen some stupid aspects of it, but what Bush it talking about will hurt a lot of cities. With my current position, I have noticed that too many people in these low/ mod income areas are not low to mod income because of anything other than their life style. Many of them can work, but choose not to, many of them are not healthy, because they are lazy or messed up in drugs and alcohol, and many of them have too many kids, because they are careless. I think that the US does need a social reform measure to show people that if you want help, work for it. I once heard someone say that the best place to go when your broke is to work.

But once again, I think that as a country we do need HUD.

[The One]

Section 8 is the only thing keeping us from having shantitowns.

Given the current federal government thinking, if shantytowns started to show up, every one of "those" people would be thrown in jail for trespassing and being lazy That or the land owners would be subsidized through a special shantytown appropriation bill (pork for the rich) oh, and exempted from the environmental regulations....and exempted from liability issues related to health......and exempted from lawsuits over personal injury claims......and on and on and on......

[New2daGame]

As a conservative... I still think that this is a stupid freakin idea. I do think that HUD should be revamped because I have seen some stupid aspects of it, but what Bush it talking about will hurt a lot of cities. With my current position, I have noticed that too many people in these low/ mod income areas are not low to mod income because of anything other than their life style. Many of them can work, but choose not to, many of them are not healthy, because they are lazy or messed up in drugs and alcohol, and many of them have too many kids, because they are careless. I think that the US does need a social reform measure to show people that if you want help, work for it. I once heard someone say that the best place to go when your broke is to work.

But once again, I think that as a country we do need HUD.

Unfortunately, a lot of what you said is true concerning those who receive aid from the government. However, the structure of these housing and welfare programs don't encourage recipients toward self-sufficiency and upward mobility. There's no transition off of assistance.

I agree that things need to change in government. These aid programs need to go back to their roots as TEMPORARY AID programs, and not have a structure that encourages recepients not to work and remain on assistance forever. Then maybe some of these economic development programs will produce better results. There would be a ready and willing workforce in these neighborhoods knowing that once their income increases, they won't be "penalized" by a substantial decrease in housing subsidy and welfare. They'll be able to save money and have an easier time transitioning off the government aid within a reasonable number of years. They might not ever own their own house (homeownership really isn't for everyone, IMO), but at least they'll be self-sufficient. Then, maybe, less people would look at these programs along with Section 8 as a waste of money.

So, I agree that change with the government structure is needed, but not this change. It's being guided by the wrong ideology.

[Gedunker]

Bush proposes 11.5% cut in HUD in his budget released today. That's about a $100,000 direct hit to my community if Congress approves and HUD applies it across the board as expected. And I fear it will get worse each year for the next four.

It's interesting to think that it was R. Milhous Nixon that started the UDAG program...

[Super Amputee Cat]

Until now, I didn't think it was possible to hate that smirking chimp of a president anymore than I do, but after reading this thread I depise that evil bastard all the more.