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Thread: What is right, religion, faith, and where do we go next? (AIB Rapture)

  1. #26
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    As the loan Heathen at this site I can say that it is lonely everywhere.

    I suspect there are a few Wiccans on the boards here, but they tend to keep pretty low profile and the Wican & Heathen communities don't often get along to well.

    Thats right, they are very separate enitites. Most christians don't get that. Heathens also have thier issues with fundies in the ranks. We get sadled with white supremist groups that have no idea what they are talking about. We refer to these people as "Nazitru". I am not one of them. As a whole, Heathni tend to be the conservatives of the pagan world (Indo-European belief structure).

    I don't really believe that the average christian is a bad or disagreable person. It is those who self identify and believe they are to carry the flag of thier religion to others that "Don't get it".

    As a Heathen I:

    Don't believe in original sin
    Don't believe that I am supposed to believe blindly in "GOD"
    Believe I am living with the Gods (yeah, thats plural) and not underneath them
    Am supposed to seek out the mystery and bueaty of the the world and not sequester my imagination to an old book.
    Order my thoughts along the lines in order of importance of family, state, and humanity
    Believe in personal freedom, free choice
    Believe that women have every bit of ability to understand the gods and interact with them as I do myself.
    Science tells me how the univers was created and operates but does not answere the question of why because that is for the relam of the metaphysical to answere.

    I have sat here in the pub on many a night, and been told I was evil and a worshiper of satan (No such critter in Heathendom) at worst or misguided at best. There are conservative christian senators that have tried to have people like me removed from the armed services or at least to have us prevented from worshiping in our own way. The VAST majority of people in the US agree with these views on at least a passive level. That would be tacit permission to those who would start the effort to make me or my beliefs illegal.


    I would politely as Michaelski, fully giving up my right to be offended, Could he handle someone like myself in the work place with him? This truly is a serious question that I would risk anything and everything being hurled at me. I got big shoulders!

    Whenever he would spout a belief based on christianity, I would counter with the heathen perspective. Much as I do around here. In the previous thread, I was called a simpleton. Having met JordanB, I think his reaction came from his own personal religious beliefs.

    We need to keep religion OUT of public civil society because of the typical form of ethics deciet. We are majority christian in this country, therefore the majority is helped most by more christianity. The classic pitfall of the greatest benifit to the greatest number.

    So please understand that when I am being critical of the abrahamic religions, its from the standpoint of dealing with thier inhearent assumptions and ignorance of other belief structures on a daily basis.
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  2. #27
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    I called you a misdirected simpleton because I’ve seen your responses to such threads in the past, and they have always been highly emotional, confrontational, and rooted in generalizations and stereotypes about “Abrahamic religions.”

    If you remove religion from the public sphere, then what do you replace it with? How do you answer the essential questions like “what should we, as a community, do?” Would you rather we have a communal secular ideology as in Europe? That’s a solution, yes, but not one, I believe, that is palpable (or even possible considering our diversity) in America.

    The American public sphere will continue to be a religious and ideological free-for-all. And if the Democrats are to come back, they need to develop an understanding of that fact and quit silencing people like the Religious Left who can bring home lots of votes for them.

  3. #28
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    Evangelical Christian Here

    [I am not going to witness, but I want to put my two cents in.

    The pushbutton issues:

    Abortion: Life begins at conception, enough said.
    Same-Sex Marriage: God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. The family is the integral unit of our civilization. Therefore, the State should seek to protect it. Children thrive best in a two parent heterosexual relationship, and this lifestyle shoule be promoted. As for individuals, it is your life. I am not a bigot and have nothing against homosexuality, but the lifestyle should not be promoted.
    Drugs: Keep them illegal.
    Heaven/Hell: They exist. The devil is real.
    Punishment: I am torn on the death penalty, so don't ask if I support it or not. I am still thinking about it. As for prison in general, we should go back to the basics and have four walls and a window. None of this weight room and cable tv stuff. Prison should be a punishment and a place for rehabilitation.

    I try to live my life as Jesus would have me. I know I am not perfect and full of faults, but I strive to follow Him everyday and let my life be an example of Christianity. I do not put people down for their beliefs and I am open to explain mine in detail. I do not preach to people. It is your decision if you believe the Word of God is true or not. To me it is.

    I vote 100% Republican for National issues, 75% Republican for State, and 75% Democrat for local. I am strong believer in local controls over growth.
    Last edited by bh2oman77; 02 Mar 2005 at 5:59 PM. Reason: Political voting record.

  4. #29
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    Children thrive best in a two parent heterosexual relationship,
    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about divorce? Since you feel that same-sex marriage is so harmful to children that the state should prevent it, do you feel the same about divorce?

    I ask because it is pretty empirical that divorce is awful for children (some studies have shown it to be worse than a parent dying) and yet our society has the highest divorce rate in the world with nary a peep out of the religious establishment (with the notable, and very brave IMHO, exception of the Catholic Church, which is trying to clamp down on annulments in America, but even that's being directed by Rome and not by the American bishops).

    Surely a problem so widespread and so damaging to children should be of primary concern for our religious leaders, yet that’s clearly not the case. In fact I read a bit ago of a study of the content of Protestant sermons. They found that twenty years ago, ministers’ favorite topics were drinking, gambling, and divorce. But now ministers are afraid to alienate parishioners who drink, gamble, and have failed marriages, so instead they stick to attacking groups that probably aren’t in the pews (like gays and single mothers).

    Our religious leaders have abdicated their roles as moral guides for fear of offending us. And now stick to denouncing already alienated groups. And in doing so they’ve become dangerously irrelevant and left our society adrift morally. Which is why I think Rome’s actions are so brave. But Rome ultimately doesn’t care too much about the American Church, and I suspect that the American Bishops are going to continue to make easy annulments as available as possible for fear of driving away people seeking the casual marriage that has become such a troubling norm in our society.

  5. #30
    Cyburbian MitchBaby's avatar
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    I still find it funny just how different America is from Canada with respect to personal rights and religous freedoms.

    Our Charter of Rights and Freedoms gives all people the basic rights in Canada, including gay marriage... My ex-gf and I have several close friends who are in strong, monogamous, gay relationships that are 10 times healthier than the relationships our straight friends are in, so why shouldn't they be allowed the basic human right to marry, and to adopt and have children? A friend of mind is the child of a pair of women, and he's as well-developed and normal as you and I, and guess what, he's probably more prepared for the real world as a result!

    Out courts already agree with that and the Canadian gov't is moving ahead on legalizing both marriage and adoption, and frankly, rightly so. I don't care if it offends others religous sensibilities, it doesn't involve them, so butt-out.
    Mitchbaby: Proud to be a :canada: planner and a :canada: surfer

  6. #31
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jordanb
    I called you a misdirected simpleton because I’ve seen your responses to such threads in the past, and they have always been highly emotional, confrontational, and rooted in generalizations and stereotypes about “Abrahamic religions.”

    If you remove religion from the public sphere, then what do you replace it with? How do you answer the essential questions like “what should we, as a community, do?” Would you rather we have a communal secular ideology as in Europe? That’s a solution, yes, but not one, I believe, that is palpable (or even possible considering our diversity) in America.

    The American public sphere will continue to be a religious and ideological free-for-all. And if the Democrats are to come back, they need to develop an understanding of that fact and quit silencing people like the Religious Left who can bring home lots of votes for them.
    OK, now the hard part, seings as how I promised not to lash out here.

    Now you know that I am niether an athiest, nor do I claim agnosticsm. Worse, I claim to something different that challenges the ENTIRE world view of someone from an Abrahamic Religion. Christianity and Islam both have thier roots solidly in the camp of Judaism. That is why I say Abrahamic Religions, its inclusive of all Judaic sects, rather the Judeo-Christian which leaves out half of the population of that branch of religion.

    You seem to have a grasp how christianity played out within its various sects in Europe and the US. Thats comendable. But you don't seem to have a grasp of the missionary zeal that especially inhabits sects in the US. Europe was devestated by sectarian religious warfare, then we wonder why they don't seem interested in being so zealous or strong in thier beliefs anymore. To me, that is an indication where we are headed. Nobody believes that we are going to turn away from religion in this country, but many of us do believe religion is trying to take control over the lives.

    Because I have a different view on the religious aspect of the US, I see this grab for control and intolerance every day. A normal person was in last week telling me that hindus were misquided and flat out wrong. These same people pitch "ID, Intelligent Design" for teaching in the science classroom. My response to the insistance of creation theory being taught in the classroom is to demand that the Heathen viewpoint also be taught to all kids. Personally, I think I would have a legal argument to stand on, but I think that would be pretty silly. I don't really believe that the universe was created after Odin, Villi, & Ve beat up Yimr the Fronst Giant and threw his brains into the sky to create the heavens. I do find these kinds of beliefs taken as "fact" by christian religious sect in this country (genisis).

    So I beleive various sects should be allowed to be as hateful and unthinking as they want to be and should be able to preach as they see fit. I don't believe that we should have all 3 branches of our government in control by these people. Religion belongs in the private realm, not in the public realm. If you ask me about the 10 commandments I will say they are great, I will also tell you they don't need to be posted in public places. If you don't understand them at home in your private life, you won't get them when you leave home. Anything so prevelant in private, unfailingly is there in public in the values we hold as a group. Therefore, we do not need to wave them in public.

    Democrats have thier own issue. I'm not one of them. I have been kicked out of the GOP by default though. They don't want fiscal conservatives. They don't want conservatives who are not christian. Now I am just in the fiercly independent camp cause there is no home for me in the political realm other than to be a constitutionalist. On that note, have you noticed how the judiciary is being attacked by the christian right. Not on issues, but by saying that the judiciary has no constitutional right to overturn laws of congress, or to rule on laws with a "No judicial review clause" placed in it?
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally posted by jordanb
    There’s an important difference between American and European concepts of religious freedom that needs to be understood (and this helps explain Canada as well). Europe was divided between Catholic and Mainline Protestant countries, while America was founded by Dissenting Protestants (Puritans, Baptists, etc).

    Catholics believe that religion is not a personal choice. Rather, Religion is a way to define a community. That’s why Catholics are baptized when we’re babies. Baptists wait until the person is old enough to make a choice, but it seems disordered for Catholics that a person even would be making a choice about his religion. He gets his religion from his parents. Luther argued against that, but then went off to found his own hereditary religion. And Europe quickly rearranged itself along the lines of a few denominations: You’re Lutheran because you were born in a Lutheran city. You’re Anglican because you’re born in England, etc. The concept of “place defines religion” was and is so deeply rooted in European culture because abandonment of that would mean abandonment of a communal morality.
    It's all the more emphatic in England for the reason that Anglicanism isn't really Protestant. The services are very similar to Catholic services and the doctrine (so far as there is one) is very much in the middle ground between Catholicism, Orthodoxy (which I would say Anglicanism was closest to), and Lutheranism.

    It is interesting that Anglicans maintained for the first two centuries at least that the Church of England was THE catholic Church in England. Roman Catholicism was therefore perceived as being in the hands of a foreign tyrant, that being tantamount to treason.

    Okay, there are sops to the fashionable Protestantising ideas of the times in the 39 Articles, but fundamentally the C of E isn't Protestant.

    So in Europe, that structure is still in place, except that God has more or less dropped out due to apathy in the case of a country like Britian, or because the Christian religion was forcibly replaced with a secular ideology, as in the case of France. But the structure of society remained the same. So in France, because it’s a Catholic (structurally) country with an established “religion” of humanist secularism, overt professions of faith that are not aligned with the communal ideology are discouraged. Personal faith is tolerated but things like religious schools to preserve it are discouraged.
    Yes! There's the difference between European laïcité and American separation of Church and State (leading to humorous pictures of towns in which there is indeed an intersection of Church and State).

    But anyway, one is compelled to ask, “what is better, the American system or the European system?” I have a conflicted view of an American Catholic on the issue. My religion is communal and I believe it derives its strength from that communalism. Further, I think it’s quite empirical that the more structured European societies result in better living standards by just about any measure. But on the other hand, would a large minority religion like American Catholicism be able to survive in any system but the American one? Catholic schools, for instance, have always been essential in maintaining the community. Protestants tried to pass laws to make those schools difficult to establish, but they were overturned on the grounds of noninterference of the Government in matters of religion. How would England react to 25% of its population being Catholic?
    Actually there are more practising Catholics than practising Anglicans in England. It's the sort of thing which makes a good newspaper story once in a while, but doesn't actually matter any more.

    Or more interestingly, how is France reacting to 10% of its population being Muslim? What we are seeing with the bans against headscarves, etc. is the communal secularism of the country attempting to assert itself over a new ideology. It required a bloody war to replace Catholicism with Humanism, and in many ways France continues to fight that war. How will adding a new major religion to the mix work?
    As long as the French Muslims realise that they are primarily French, then there will be no problem. The French government is going about this the right way. It's nice to see laïcité with teeth.

  8. #33
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    As long as the French Muslims realise that they are primarily French, then there will be no problem. The French government is going about this the right way. It's nice to see laïcité with teeth.
    Well yes, "if the Muslims submit to our cultural sovereignty, then there won't be a problem." But what if they don't? War? I'm not saying that French homogeneity isn't a good way to run a society. It clearly is. But a country with America's diversity would never hold together with those sorts of requirements. And as Europe grows more diverse, it could find it facing some very pressing problems indeed.

  9. #34

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    jordan: very interesting argument: But, I'm not sure the relative social peace and liberal welfare states of Europe are caused by religion, but occurred despite of it. The clergy have traditionally been a source of conservatism and reaction in many countries well into the 19th century. (I'm generalizing-there are, of course, exceptions).

  10. #35
    Cyburbian Rumpy Tunanator's avatar
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    You guys need help...............

    seriously...........
    A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."


    Neil McCauley (Robert DeNiro): Heat 1995

  11. #36
    jimi_d's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jordanb
    Well yes, "if the Muslims submit to our cultural sovereignty, then there won't be a problem." But what if they don't? War? I'm not saying that French homogeneity isn't a good way to run a society. It clearly is. But a country with America's diversity would never hold together with those sorts of requirements. And as Europe grows more diverse, it could find it facing some very pressing problems indeed.
    Immigration has only ever been on the sort of scale where integration was possible in Europe. France has managed it quite well. Britain hasn't.

  12. #37
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    I will acknowledge that there is a possibility that an intelligence that is far greater than ours exists and may have the power to appear omnipotent to men, much like I have my dog convinced that I am the omnipotent bringer of bacony treats. He both worships and fears me, not because I am evil, but because I will whip his butt with the newspaper if he poo’s in my house.

    I don’t’ know if I fit anyone traditional classification. I call my religious/spiritual state “undecided.” I don’t discount the possibility of a loving God who sacrificed his son for all of mankind in some contrived kabuki theater 2000 years ago, but I think it’s a winning the powerball equivalent in the category of long shots.

    I don’t believe the Muhamidists, or Zoroastrians have any more chance of being correct than the Christians.

    I believe the Hindus have got some cool spiritual books, but let’s face it; their names are too hard to pronounce for that religion to ever go big time worldwide.

    I like aspects of Buddhism, and I love Taoism. But find my personality wiring is wrong for Taoism. Perhaps if I had been exposed to Taoism as a youth?

    I believe that the universe, based upon the limited amount of cosmology I have read and comprehended, is a very beautiful and elegant place whose very fundamental nature is unknowable by any one man.

    I believe that singularities are lessons in humility.

    I believe that personal self awareness/consciousness may be physics cracking a joke.

    I believe the universe, as expressed by the physics I understand may have been intelligently designed. Werner Von Braun produced intelligent designs also.

    I believe that if you want to believe that “it is turtles all the way down” then may you turn out to be right.

    I believe that the universe is basically a chaotic/neutral canvas.

    I believe that I’ll die and be soon forgotten.

    I believe the bible has much to teach us. The power of a myth to make the citizen obedient to the state is but one of those lessons.

    I believe in evolution. I believe we are not the last stage by any means. I believe that humans may just be one of the monkeys in the evolutionary path to machine intelligence.

    I believe that I won’t wake up in some after life and have to apologize to Jesus.

    I believe that I was put on earth for the same reason you were, to sequester carbon for a while.

    I can’t even comprehend having faith in something that is unproveable.

    I believe that the good works of missionaries are ultimately selfish.

    I believe that if you want to cut a viable child out of your body you have every right to do so. I have every right to think you are a murderer. If you ask me what I think about your chosen form of contraception I’m liable to tell you.

    I believe saying things like abortions have gone up under Bush means you’re a slave to your limited ideology.

    I believe that stupid should hurt.

    I believe that it is healthier to live life by the commonly accepted Judeo-Christian code of personal morality.

    I believe the bible was purposefully contrived and is by and large a huge fraud upon mankind. I believe religion has always been a tool of the state and the reverse is also true.

    I believe we will have to shake off religion someday if we want to advance as a species.

    I believe that the men of the Vatican are far more interested in the health, safety and welfare of the church than they are of the parishioners.

    I believe that somewhere in the Vatican there is a safe full of secrets that the church doesn’t want us to know about. I don't know why I believe this one other than I like a good X-Files type mystery.

    I don’t think all the top dogs of the church really believe the stuff they are preaching anymore than Teddy Kennedy believe he is a pro-choice Catholic.

    I believe that if there is a God, he’s got a mean streak when he’s drinkin’.

    I believe that atheists are way too cocksure. There is a very good chance God exists. My guess is he’ll have no clue who I am.

    I know that I have never met anyone with similar beliefs, at least no one who would fess up.

  13. #38
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I know that I have never met anyone with similar beliefs, at least no one who would fess up.
    Actually, my beliefs are remarkably similar, to a significant degree. Where we differ is probably too arcane to bother trying to put into words.

  14. #39

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    Even when we disagree on politics or foreign policy, I have to confess that El Guapo can write up a storm of good points!

    These were my favorites from his list!

    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I believe that the good works of missionaries are ultimately selfish.

    I believe that stupid should hurt.

    I believe the bible was purposefully contrived and is by and large a huge fraud upon mankind. I believe religion has always been a tool of the state and the reverse is also true.

    I believe we will have to shake off religion someday if we want to advance as a species.

    I believe that the men of the Vatican are far more interested in the health, safety and welfare of the church than they are of the parishioners.

    I believe that somewhere in the Vatican there is a safe full of secrets that the church doesn’t want us to know about. I don't know why I believe this one other than I like a good X-Files type mystery.

    I believe that if there is a God, he’s got a mean streak when he’s drinkin’.

    I believe that atheists are way too cocksure. There is a very good chance God exists. My guess is he’ll have no clue who I am.

  15. #40
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I will acknowledge that there is a possibility that an intelligence that is far greater than ours exists and may have the power to appear omnipotent to men, much like I have my dog convinced that I am the omnipotent bringer of bacony treats. He both worships and fears me, not because I am evil, but because I will whip his butt with the newspaper if he poo’s in my house.
    But you also take him to the vet and he fears that, because he doesn't understand why pain is being administered when he has done no wrong. If there is an intelligence behind the workings of the universe -- and I think there is -- then presumably some of the pain it dishes out is similarly done out of wisdom for what is best for us.


    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I don’t’ know if I fit anyone traditional classification. I call my religious/spiritual state “undecided.” I don’t discount the possibility of a loving God who sacrificed his son for all of mankind in some contrived kabuki theater 2000 years ago, but I think it’s a winning the powerball equivalent in the category of long shots.
    I usually don't discuss these things publically because I don't like being labeled, mostly because I don't fit think I really fit any of the labels either and labeling me is likely to give peolple erroneous ideas about me. I say sometimes that I do not attend church because I am a spiritual person and I think religion is about worldly power. Undoubtedly, the events of 2000 years ago are distorted into a kabuki theater style story, in much the same way that the story of any person's life gets distorted when you attempt to tell their story to an audience of strangers, unfamiliar with thier culture, etc.

    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I don’t believe the Muhamidists, or Zoroastrians have any more chance of being correct than the Christians.

    I believe the Hindus have got some cool spiritual books, but let’s face it; their names are too hard to pronounce for that religion to ever go big time worldwide.

    I like aspects of Buddhism, and I love Taoism. But find my personality wiring is wrong for Taoism. Perhaps if I had been exposed to Taoism as a youth?
    I think it likely that you know more of the details about various religions than I do. However, as I said earlier in this thread, I think all religion is a kind of mental model. Unfortunately, they don't generally get viewed that way. So I suspect I basically agree with your points here, I just phrase it differently.

    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I believe that the universe, based upon the limited amount of cosmology I have read and comprehended, is a very beautiful and elegant place whose very fundamental nature is unknowable by any one man.
    As I have said, both earlier in this thread and on other occasions: my ego is not so big that I think I can understand life, the universe and everything. I like to leave room in my mind for the universe to Surprise me.
    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I believe that singularities are lessons in humility.
    I believe gifted-learning disabled children who try to explain physics to their mom are lessons in humility who can expose their dumb mom to enough physics to agree with eG on the above comment.
    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I believe that personal self awareness/consciousness may be physics cracking a joke.
    I wouldn't put it that way but I can't say I disagree.
    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I believe the universe, as expressed by the physics I understand may have been intelligently designed. Werner Von Braun produced intelligent designs also.
    I probably know a lot less physics than you, but I absolutely agree.
    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I believe that if you want to believe that “it is turtles all the way down” then may you turn out to be right.
    I have no idea what you mean by this.
    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I believe that the universe is basically a chaotic/neutral canvas.

    I believe that I’ll die and be soon forgotten.

    I believe the bible has much to teach us. The power of a myth to make the citizen obedient to the state is but one of those lessons.

    I believe in evolution. I believe we are not the last stage by any means. I believe that humans may just be one of the monkeys in the evolutionary path to machine intelligence.

    I believe that I won’t wake up in some after life and have to apologize to Jesus.

    I believe that I was put on earth for the same reason you were, to sequester carbon for a while.
    I can't say I disagree, but I probably wouldn't phrase it that way.


    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I can’t even comprehend having faith in something that is unproveable.
    I think I have a different idea of what "faith" is but ...don't know that we would really disagree if I could figure out a way to adequately put it into words.

    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I believe that the good works of missionaries are ultimately selfish.

    I believe that if you want to cut a viable child out of your body you have every right to do so. I have every right to think you are a murderer. If you ask me what I think about your chosen form of contraception I’m liable to tell you.

    I believe saying things like abortions have gone up under Bush means you’re a slave to your limited ideology.
    I can't say I disagree, but I probably wouldn't phrase it that way.


    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I believe that stupid should hurt.
    I believe pain is a message saying "Hey, stupid! Don't Do That!"

    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I believe that it is healthier to live life by the commonly accepted Judeo-Christian code of personal morality

    I believe the bible was purposefully contrived and is by and large a huge fraud upon mankind. I believe religion has always been a tool of the state and the reverse is also true.

    I believe we will have to shake off religion someday if we want to advance as a species.
    I can't say I disagree, but I probably wouldn't phrase it that way.


    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I believe that the men of the Vatican are far more interested in the health, safety and welfare of the church than they are of the parishioners.
    Which kind of sums up why I believe religion is too much about worldly power and, as a spiritual person, I don't feel comfortable being religious.

    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I believe that somewhere in the Vatican there is a safe full of secrets that the church doesn’t want us to know about. I don't know why I believe this one other than I like a good X-Files type mystery.


    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I don’t think all the top dogs of the church really believe the stuff they are preaching anymore than Teddy Kennedy believe he is a pro-choice Catholic.
    I can't say I disagree, but I probably wouldn't phrase it that way.


    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I believe that if there is a God, he’s got a mean streak when he’s drinkin’.
    I think God is dreamed up in the minds of man. I wish my life were painless enough to find some way to completely disagree with you. But I have often been in a position where I wouldn't disagree, I just probably wouldn't phrase it the same way.

    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I believe that atheists are way too cocksure. There is a very good chance God exists. My guess is he’ll have no clue who I am.
    I can't say I disagree, but I probably wouldn't phrase it that way.


    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I know that I have never met anyone with similar beliefs, at least no one who would fess up.
    I don't imagine you will count me (what with my beliefs in astrology and such ). But I find that I agree with your points to a remarkable degree and had previously never met anyone who saw things remotely similarly. So I enjoyed your comments a great deal, enough to feel inspired to reply almost point-by-point. So: Sorry for pulling an MZ....oh, wait, that would be "just being me".
    Last edited by Michele Zone; 03 Mar 2005 at 4:14 AM.

  16. #41
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I will acknowledge that there is a possibility that an intelligence that is far greater than ours exists and may have the power to appear omnipotent to men, much like I have my dog convinced that I am the omnipotent bringer of bacony treats. He both worships and fears me, not because I am evil, but because I will whip his butt with the newspaper if he poo’s in my house. ... [snip] ...

    I know that I have never met anyone with similar beliefs, at least no one who would fess up.

    After all of that, most of which (90%) we could easily agree on, I still find myself staring across a gulf I find impassible.

    Except, there are many types of personal morality that are worthy and applicable to living life as a decent human being without being Abrahamic in origin. In fact, the majority of the values of a democracy you hold dear are in SPITE of the Abrahamic traditions and not because of it.
    Last edited by nerudite; 04 Mar 2005 at 3:13 PM.
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  17. #42
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Duke Of Dystopia
    After all of that, most of which (90%) we could easily agree on, I still find myself staring across a gulf I find impassible.

    Except, there are many types of personal morality that are worthy and applicable to living life as a decent human being without being Abrahamic in origin. In fact, the majority of the values of a democracy you hold dear are in SPITE of the Abrahamic traditions and not because of it.
    I think you are so hung up about your bugaboo about hating "Abrahamic traditions" that it seems to me you didn't even hear him, really.

    Perhaps some time I can attempt to talk about my thoughts on how the whole 'good vs. evil', heaven, hell and many other concepts grow out of the left and right hemispheres of the brain warring with each other, and the subconscious, super-conscious, etc.

    To me, heaven and hell are states of being (or states of mind -- I suppose there are many other ways to attempt to say that), rather than "places".

    Peace.

  18. #43

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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    I think you are so hung up about your bugaboo about hating "Abrahamic traditions" that it seems to me you didn't even hear him, really.

    Perhaps some time I can attempt to talk about my thoughts on how the whole 'good vs. evil', heaven, hell and many other concepts grow out of the left and right hemispheres of the brain warring with each other, and the subconscious, super-conscious, etc.

    To me, heaven and hell are states of being (or states of mind -- I suppose there are many other ways to attempt to say that), rather than "places".

    Peace.
    I think his point is that the "Christian moral code" is not the only one-and may not be the best one (certainly not for all people. There is no room in the Christian moral code for gay people, for instance).

  19. #44
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    I think his point is that the "Christian moral code" is not the only one-and may not be the best one (certainly not for all people. There is no room in the Christian moral code for gay people, for instance).

    Exactly,

    EG has said he leans toward being atheist in other threads. His conservative nature and desire to hold a socity together can be interpreted to mean that society still needs some kind of moral compass. I can agree with this wholeheartedly. In fact, other friends of mine who are atheist have gone to great lengths to understand ethics and understand what makes a society stick together.

    Personally, I have no issue with people privatly holding thier own views on this. Publicly and without feeling a need to apologize, thier religious views should not be allowed to be braught into the legal code and operation of our secular society. Doing so will create the schism of our european past to decimate our own nation in our future. That is why I am harsh on the subject.
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  20. #45
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Duke Of Dystopia
    Exactly,

    EG has said he leans toward being atheist in other threads. His conservative nature and desire to hold a socity together can be interpreted to mean that society still needs some kind of moral compass. I can agree with this wholeheartedly. In fact, other friends of mine who are atheist have gone to great lengths to understand ethics and understand what makes a society stick together.

    Personally, I have no issue with people privatly holding thier own views on this. Publicly and without feeling a need to apologize, thier religious views should not be allowed to be braught into the legal code and operation of our secular society. Doing so will create the schism of our european past to decimate our own nation in our future. That is why I am harsh on the subject.
    And exactly where does EG say he wants to base secular laws on "Christian moral codes"??

    You know, I honestly feel you read too much into this whole "abrahamic code" thing. One of the reasons I am not big on attending church or being part of a formal religion is because individuals all have individualized beliefs, no matter what they call it. Christianity has been around for roughly 2000 years and has split into many sects. Christians can't agree what the "Christian moral code" is.

    I grew up in the Bible Belt. I have had long, close associations with serious biblical scholars. I have been known to quote the bible. It contains some real gems. Because of that, sometimes people assume I am Christian. I can't say that I am. I can't say that I am not. I can say that I hope people judge me for my actions and not for the label that they get grouped under. Which is part of why I don't particularly want a label -- I don't want people concluding that I am everything in X little box in their mind that falls under that label and nothing else, only to have them mortified when I turn out to be a normal human being, full of contradictions and quirks and inconsistencies. You seem to whig out about "abrahamic codes" like someone with a life threatening allergy. Are you so closed minded that you cannot judge a man for his actions, even if -- gasp -- he uses some "Christian" label to loosely group his messy, ill-defined personal qualities together in an effort to communicate with folks from around the world who barely know him in an online forum?

  21. #46
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Off-topic:
    Quote Originally posted by Theo Larch
    I first read the phrase "Turtles All the Way Down" in a book by Stephen Hawking. According to the story, a bigname scientist was giving a lecture on astronomy. After the lecture, an elderly lady came up and told the scientist that he had it all wrong. 'The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist asked "And what is the turtle standing on?"
    To which the lady triumphantly replied: "You're very clever, young man, but it's no use -- it's turtles all the way down."
    link


    Quote Originally posted by Duke of Dystopia
    EG has said he leans toward being atheist in other threads. His conservative nature and desire to hold a socity together can be interpreted to mean that society still needs some kind of moral compass. I can agree with this wholeheartedly.
    STOP! This this kind of crap right here is how religions get started. You quote me, she quotes me. You argue until you both get all excited, then the next thing you know I die a horrible death and the cult is off and running. Someone compiles a book of readings from Cyburbia and bang 2000 years later Manhattan Kansas is the Holly Land and Wildcats are persecuting Jayhawks all over the world. STOP the INSANITY.

    eG is not the Messiah. He's a very naught boy!

  22. #47
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    And exactly where does EG say he wants to base secular laws on "Christian moral codes"??

    Chill out. Thats not what I said and I am going to leave it where its at.

    Do a search for what is going on with the cable vs broadcast tv for a case where religious values are now sneaking into public law.

    http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...DECENCY-DC.XML

    This is not a fear, its a reality. I pay for cable. I like the spoof and edgy nature of Drawn Together and Southpark. Thats the beauty of cable, if you don't like those things, you can change the channel. You can control what your kids watch without limiting what other people watch. But then again, applying decency laws to cble isn't really about decency, its about controlling the voice of oposition and applying one set of religious values to all. Broadcast is a vast wasteland of vacant ideas because of this.

    The conservative gop wants to apply "deccency rules" to cable in order to stop the voice of decent. In other words, Saving Ryans Privates was a pornographic movie that is not fit for cable either. Under this proposal, the Daily Show will be significantly stifled. Many shows will be stiffled.

    The best and brightest minds in the industry are flowing to cable because that is where the creative license is at. This "Indecency" concept is a religious witchhunt conducted by the political party to which they belong. Its not a conspiracy theory, its not a belief, it a reality that people need to wake up and see whats happening.
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  23. #48
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    Off-topic:


    link




    STOP! This this kind of crap right here is how religions get started. You quote me, she quotes me. You argue until you both get all excited, then the next thing you know I die a horrible death and the cult is off and running. Someone compiles a book of readings from Cyburbia and bang 2000 years later Manhattan Kansas is the Holly Land and Wildcats are persecuting Jayhawks all over the world. STOP the INSANITY.

    eG is not the Messiah. He's a very naught boy!


    But if its not you...... IT CAN BE SOMEBODY ELSE!.......... GAME ON!
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  24. #49
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Duke, honestly, your 4 paragraphs have nothing to do that I can tell with eG or this discussion. I reiterate: any time the word "Christian" is mentioned, you react like someone with an extreme allergy: you can't tolerate a single molecule of it without going into hissy fits.




    But, eG, wouldn't it better for you to the next messiah rather than me?

  25. #50
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    Duke, ...I reiterate: any time the word "Christian" is mentioned, you react like someone with an extreme allergy: you can't tolerate a single molecule of it without going into hissy fits. ......
    Quite probably.

    those 4 paragraphs were intended to show how private religious values sneak into public law and errod freedom of choice. What freedom of choice do you have if you can't pay for creativity past the lowest comon denominator. Is Saving Ryans Privates really a pornographic film? That is a lagitimate question to ask, and its important because the anwere to that is driven by personal belief systems that are placed in a societies moral compas. Should everything in society be created for the lowest common denominator of offense?

    I believe strongly that a society needs a moral compass. I just strongly question weather people understand the balance between rights, responsibility, and how personal belief errods them.

    See, I havn't been nasty at all in this thread!
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

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