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Thread: What is right, religion, faith, and where do we go next? (AIB Rapture)

  1. #51
    I have avoided jumping in before this because, while I'm interested, I'm conflicted in my personal beliefs and therefore will no doubt struggle trying to convey them.

    In any event, Saving Private Ryan was not broadcast here in the Louisville market because it was airing at 8pm (family hour). The network affiliate is on record as stating that he would have broadcast it if it had started at 9pm. There is, I think, some logic to this in that the opening 25 minutes of the film (more or less) is graphically violent. (IMO it is the best depiction of combat in cinema.) It is most certainly not pornographic. There is, then, the valid argument that it might not be suitable for young children. What bothers me is that someone else got to decide whether it may be seen instead of me.

    I am extremely frightened by erosion of the separation clause. The last time we had a theocracy here, people got burned at the stake.

    Now I'm off to go re-read the epic of gilgamesh.
    On pitching to Stan Musial:
    "Once he timed your fastball, your infielders were in jeopardy."
    Warren Spahn

  2. #52
          Downtown's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    I don’t’ know if I fit anyone traditional classification. I call my religious/spiritual state “undecided.” I don’t discount the possibility of a loving God who sacrificed his son for all of mankind in some contrived kabuki theater 2000 years ago, but I think it’s a winning the powerball equivalent in the category of long shots.

    I believe that I won’t wake up in some after life and have to apologize to Jesus.

    I can’t even comprehend having faith in something that is unproveable.
    I agree with these completely. I guess I'm a definite agnostic.

    I can't fathom that there is "heaven" and "hell", but I also find it hard to believe that when we die, all we are is worm food.

    Abortion: Bubba said it best - should be "safe, legal and rare", no desire to send girls back to back alleys and coathangers.

    Gay Parents/Adoption: two loving parents, committed to each other and their child is better than one or none.

  3. #53
    I believe we will have to shake off religion someday if we want to advance as a species.
    Very insightful and useful comments from everyone, plenty for me to cut and paste into my Cyburbia folder, this simpleton loves to collect other peoples thoughts.

    Senor Guapo, I like your list but I might have added: "I believe we will have to shake off "professional sports "someday if we want to advance as a species."

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally posted by The Irish One

    Senor Guapo, I like your list but I might have added: "I believe we will have to shake off "professional sports "someday if we want to advance as a species."
    Amen, Brother! this here ATHEIST in the Great CHURCH of Professional Sports thinks that good old Karl Marx was wrong about the real opiate of the people.

    (Just kidding, sports fans)

  5. #55
    Cyburbian Rumpy Tunanator's avatar
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    If one religion was deemed "the right one", everybody would be on board to make it to that so-called promised land and we would all end up in a living hell of people we couldn't stand to be around in the first place. Therefore, believe what you want, you never know where you'll end up after you get hit by that beer truck or whatever else is the means to your end.........or demise...........

    I'm just going to go with boat drinks...............






    .......... obscure reference to "Things to do in Denver When Your Dead"......
    A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."


    Neil McCauley (Robert DeNiro): Heat 1995

  6. #56
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Duke Of Dystopia
    those 4 paragraphs were intended to show how private religious values sneak into public law and errod freedom of choice. What freedom of choice do you have if you can't pay for creativity past the lowest comon denominator.
    Anyone's private values influence the decisions they make. Humans generally are the ones running governments, corporations, etc. So, there is no such thing as "value free" decision-making processes. Some people's private values include things like "respecting the beliefs of others" and "freedom of choice" and those are the people I count on to keep society civilized. I think you fail to pass that test: your push for "freedom" is so very pushy for your own personal freedoms that it comes across as "everyone is free to do it my way and agree with me. If not, you are all a bunch of oppressive jerks and I shall shortly announce my Jihad against thee." You basically harrass anyone and everyone who admits to a belief in Christianity or to holding Christian values dear, to any degree, no matter what else they have said. You often really upset people here because of it. I don't care what you believe or what you worship but "freedom of religion" does not mean "Freedom only for DUKE and those who agree with him". It means freedom for those folks who still believe in Christianity (or other abrahamic religions) too. You practice a kind of reverse discrimination, akin to the way white males are frequently persecuted in modern America today.

    I would honestly enjoy learning more about your heathen beliefs. But the only thing I really know about your heathen beliefs is that you are incredibly hostile towards Christianity. I have not learned anything at all substantive about what you believe, what your practices are, etc. You don't seem to stand for something so much as you seem to stand against everything else. Those are vastly different positions. The first will usually be respected, even by people who vehemently disagree with you. The latter will generally piss people off, even those who basically would agree with you if you could enter into conversation as if it weren't combat. Additionally, you seem so hellbent upon arguing your case that you act as if your only concern is that you be heard and understood and you seem to feel little or no obligation to hear or understand what anyone else is saying. That is not a dialogue. It is preaching (which is forbidden in this forum, and for good reason).

    I really like you, Duke. A great deal. More than you seem to realize. But this specific behavior of yours is toxic. And I can't see that it is good for you. It certainly isn't good for the forum.

    And you can find freedom of choice. But it is something that is usually done quietly. Very public resources are going to tend towards the lowest common denominator. That isn't some "conspiracy". It just is. If you want things of higher quality, they won't be spoonfed to you on the public airwaves. You have to seek them out, in out of the way little corners. If your lifestyle at present doesn't give you sufficient maneuvering room to do that, well, it is a kind of "welfare" argument to act like the world owes you easy access to such things because you are too tired or something to go out and find them where they hide.

    Now, allow me to bow out because I generally deem my spiritual beliefs to be more private than my sex life. If you need to borrow some antihistamines to get through this conversation, let me know. I usually have a few bottles on hand.

  7. #57

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    I agree with Michelle that it is easy to fall into thought patterns where one's own sense of oppression leads to a failure of true communication. (I disagree with Michelle that white males are in any true way an oppressed class, but that's a whole new topic of discussion )

    It is too easy to lose track of the good part of the Abrahamic traditions-the positive aspects. That is in my case partly because I am perpetually stuck in a pseudo-adolescent "angry at God" phase, but there are many reasons for losing this perspective.

    Slightly Off Topic: For an excellent, thoughtful discussion from a "liberal" Christian perspective, I have just recently discovered an excellent blog: http://rmadisonj.blogspot.com/

    I hope we can continue this conversation. Despite its dangers, it is an important-and fascinating-one.

  8. #58
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    01 Anyone's private values influence the decisions they make. .......
    02 your push for "freedom" is so very pushy for your own personal freedoms that it comes across as "everyone is free to do it my way and agree with me......
    03 You basically harrass anyone and everyone who admits to a belief in Christianity or to holding Christian values dear, to any degree, no matter what else they have said...
    04 You often really upset people here because of it.
    05 I don't care what you believe or what you worship but "freedom of religion" does not mean "Freedom only for DUKE and those who agree with him". It means freedom for those folks who still believe in Christianity (or other abrahamic religions) too.
    06 You practice a kind of reverse discrimination, akin to the way white males are frequently persecuted in modern America today.
    07 I would honestly enjoy learning more about your heathen beliefs. But the only thing I really know about your heathen beliefs is that you are incredibly hostile towards Christianity.
    08 I have not learned anything at all substantive about what you believe, what your practices are, etc.
    09 You don't seem to stand for something so much as you seem to stand against everything else....
    10 The latter will generally piss people off, even those who basically would agree with you if you could enter into conversation as if it weren't combat. Additionally, you seem so hellbent upon arguing your case that you act as if your only concern is that you be heard and understood and you seem to feel little or no obligation to hear or understand what anyone else is saying.
    11 That is not a dialogue. It is preaching (which is forbidden in this forum, and for good reason).
    12 I really like you, Duke. A great deal. More than you seem to realize. But this specific behavior of yours is toxic. And I can't see that it is good for you. It certainly isn't good for the forum.
    13 ..If your lifestyle at present doesn't ....is a kind of "welfare" argument to act like the world owes you easy access to such things because you are too tired ....
    14 Now, allow me to bow out because I generally deem my spiritual beliefs to be more private than my sex life. If you need to borrow some antihistamines to get through this conversation, let me know. I usually have a few bottles on hand.
    01) Yup, got that
    02) I ask for no more freedom than I already have, but I do not want any less in my future.
    03) Incorect, it is not the belief in thier deity which arouses my ire, it is the uninformed belief based on circular blind faith (notice I did not use the term logic).
    04) Yeah, I know that, the written media and its abreviations don't help.
    05) I reiterate #2 above, as it is for others. Its the errosion of rights that gets me riled.
    06) Incorect, I respect and like people that have strong beliefs. I differ with them equally as strenuous when they base thier reasoning on circular reasoning based on faith alone.
    07) I can't help you there because I don't push it or expect others to get it. I don't ask to be protected from others beliefs. I do expect to challenge others as I am challenged by others. In the current terms, its called the market place of ideas and I am confident I can hold my own against increadible odds. I have big shoulders and can defend myself. I can tell you what to read for starters, but I am not sure that would help you or anyone else much.
    08) I do not make circles and pentagrams, burn candles, and mumble new age stuff to help my self esteem. Other than my music and guardedly open mental curriosity about the world, I live a very conservative existence that most of the conservative religious types would be quite comfortable with.
    09) I stand for the golden rule. I stand for letting people choose thier own way in life, even when others disapprove. I stand for allowing others to offend me as long as they can handle being offended in return. I stand for wanting a nation that is right with how we deal with the rest of the world and not just right for our own wallets. I stand for parental rights. I stand for not treating others different than I wrongly just because they are different. I stand for rapid and escelated conflict against those who would attack me and mine (including country).
    10) Yeah, that effect has happened many times in the past to me. I thrive on conflict generally with only 1 exception, I won't let conflict of great magnitude into my personal life ever again. Its a personality thing.
    11) Never have I once told anybody that they should switch to being a Heathen, therefore I am not preaching. If I were preaching by calling others on thier beliefs, there are a LOT of us in trouble on this board not just me.
    12) Your right, it probably isn't good for me, but neither is the 4 am after bar diet of French Fries, Chicken Strips, and Cream Chease Poppers!
    13) The world owes me nothing. I am the survivor of over 10 motorvehicle accidents many of which should have killed me. I ask no quarter from life and expect none. On the contrary, I am comfortable with myself to a point where I no longer need to live as someone elses toady. If the world ended today, I can stand in front of my judge with head held high and say I did the best I could and believe the scales would be at least slightly in my favor.
    14) I no longer need the cloak of prvacy to act as armor.


    And thanks for the barbs. I kindly refuse to pass them back in this thread. Really, not one bomb thrown so far!
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  9. #59
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    ....own sense of oppression leads to a failure of true communication. (I disagree with Michelle that white males are in any true way an oppressed class, but that's a whole new topic of discussion )

    It is too easy to lose track of the good part of the Abrahamic traditions-the positive aspects. That is in my case partly because I am perpetually stuck in a pseudo-adolescent "angry at God" phase, but there are many reasons for losing this perspective.

    Slightly Off Topic: For an excellent, thoughtful discussion from a "liberal" Christian perspective, I have just recently discovered an excellent blog: http://rmadisonj.blogspot.com/

    I hope we can continue this conversation. Despite its dangers, it is an important-and fascinating-one.
    I am not and do not feel opressed due to my religion OR race.

    Yes it is easy to loose track of the good things about the Abrahamic religions. Unfortunatly because they are often used for regressive purposes.

    I am not angry at GOD. As one small human being caught up in the measltrom of the universe, I can only do my best to take care of myself. Getting mad at GOD for something that happens naturally or due to the actions of another human being is pointless and not right. More important is to hold the person doing harm responsible and get justice for that harm if possible.

    It has been a good conversation. To bad we don't have Hindus or Buhdists that could chime in, any Wicans?
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally posted by Duke Of Dystopia
    I am not and do not feel opressed due to my religion OR race.

    Yes it is easy to loose track of the good things about the Abrahamic religions. Unfortunatly because they are often used for regressive purposes.

    I am not angry at GOD. As one small human being caught up in the measltrom of the universe, I can only do my best to take care of myself. Getting mad at GOD for something that happens naturally or due to the actions of another human being is pointless and not right. More important is to hold the person doing harm responsible and get justice for that harm if possible.

    It has been a good conversation. To bad we don't have Hindus or Buhdists that could chime in, any Wicans?

    Well, my "anger" at God is that one part of me wants to believe, even as far as fundamentalism. It must be comforting to be able to believe so strongly. I am not being condescending, just making a statement.

    BUT-I Just cannot. There are too many contradictions in the Bible. Science provides better answers to many things. I don't find the story of Christ's sacrifice by God very loving, and I can't as easily dismiss as jordan appears to the genocide, rape, and pillage of the Old Testament-or the repressive insanity of "Saint" Paul (the Doctor James Dobson of his day??!!). I don't find the Christian explanation of "the problem of evil" very convincing, and as I've said above, the concept of eternal punishment envisioned by fundies screams of injustice.

    Nonetheless, I am a child of this culture. The concept of a fall is convincing (although the Gnostic/dualistic explanation appears superior). Nobody likes the idea of true death, and I am no longer young (and, given some horrific dietary habits and bad genetics, I probably won't live to old age).

  11. #61
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    (I disagree with Michelle that white males are in any true way an oppressed class, but that's a whole new topic of discussion )
    I did not say they are oppressed. I said they are sometimes subject to "reverse discrimination" -- ie people who are hostile towards them solely because they are white males and thus perceived to be "The Oppressors". El Guapo has commented on this topic before. I am not making it up or overreacting. Thanks.

  12. #62

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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    I did not say they are oppressed. I said they are sometimes subject to "reverse discrimination" -- ie people who are hostile towards them solely because they are white males and thus perceived to be "The Oppressors". El Guapo has commented on this topic before. I am not making it up or overreacting. Thanks.
    Oh. OK. Correction noted.

  13. #63
    I don't find the story of Christ's sacrifice by God very loving,

    BKM, you might enjoy John Dominic Crossan's books for a historical perspective of Jesus.

  14. #64
    Cyburbian jsk1983's avatar
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    If Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Able, how did the human race continue? Were there others not mentioned or did one of the sons reproduce with their mother?

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally posted by jsk1983
    If Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Able, how did the human race continue? Were there others not mentioned or did one of the sons reproduce with their mother?
    Well, it doesn't say there weren't any daughters. At least that's the official line.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally posted by jsk1983
    If Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Able, how did the human race continue? Were there others not mentioned or did one of the sons reproduce with their mother?
    We're just Cain and Able's butt babies
    Even if there were any sisters... they'd be saying that: 1) We're all inbred and 2) Incest is Ok.

    I think I preffer to be related to monkeys, than to be inbred.

  17. #67

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    Quote Originally posted by The Irish One
    BKM, you might enjoy John Dominic Crossan's books for a historical perspective of Jesus.
    I'll look for it, thanks.

    What I meant to say is not to dismiss Jesus' sacrifice per se, just that I don't find a God who tortures and sacrifices his own son because his own rules (which I assume could be changed by the omnipotent creator of the Universe???) supposedly require it.

    Of course, one author made an interesting argument that Christ was still aware of his godhood during the sacrifice, which takes a little of the edge off, perhaps? Other sources, though, claim that Jesus lost awareness of his godhood, and that the seperation from the Father and Holy Spirit was the real source of agony (after all, many regular humans sacrifice themselves physically).

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