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Thread: Why men earn more than women

  1. #1
    Cyburbian AubieTurtle's avatar
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    Why men earn more than women

    http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/career/20050307a1.asp

    It's an interesting article. I'd like to see if the data in the book stands up to examination.

    While some of the arguements make sense, I can see flaws in this one:

    I asked Farrell, "But apart from the 25 nonsexist reasons men earn more, isn't sexism still a factor?" He responded, "There are instances of discrimination against both women and men, but on average, no. If you knew you could hire a woman for less than an equivalent man, you'd hire women to get a price advantage over your competition. Do you think businesses so hate women that they hire more expensive men even though they'd lose so much money?"
    In smaller businesses (or business units of larger companies), especially ones not publically owned, a person with personal issues in regards to a particular gender, race, etc may very well be willing to pay more for a less useful person just because they feel more comfortable with some types of people than others. I'm sure it goes on at all levels of business (and by and against all genders, races, etc.), but I'd think it would be more likely in small businesses.
    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - H.L. Mencken

  2. #2
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    It is one of the better articles I have seen. It acknowledges that women tend to work shorter hours "Because women, on average, are more involved in childrearing and other domestic activities." It fails to make the same connection in the next point, where it suggests women need to "Be more productive in the hours you do work" in order to get ahead. Women who have kids cannot afford to be so exhausted that a sick child cannot wake them from a deep sleep at 2am. Men usually can afford to exhaust themselves. These two points -- working longer hours and working harder during those hours -- cannot be so neatly separated. They are interrelated.

    Some of the other points strike me as a tad biased.
    1. Choose careers that pay more. Because of supply and demand, you'll earn more by choosing a job that:

    is in an unpleasant environment (prison vs. childcare facility);

    requires harder-to-attain skills (hard science vs. liberal arts);

    requires longer work hours (executive vs. administrative assistant);

    is unrewarding to most people (tax accountant vs. artist);

    demands financial risk (commission-based sales vs. government job);

    is inconvenient (traveling salesperson vs. teacher);

    is hazardous (police officer vs. librarian).
    When my two very demanding kids were little, I heard a blurb on a radio show. This guy said he used to work in a ward dealing with suicide cases and the like when he had 4 kids at home under the age of 5. He said his wife's "job" (of being home with the kids) was more stressful than his. Working at a prison is certainly stressful. But I think it is erroneous to assume that doing childcare is not as stressful. It may not be. But I doubt that this comment is based on some kind of survey or other hard research.

    Additionally, "liberal arts" are not necessarily any easier than "hard science". Which one is "easy" and which one is "hard" is partly dependent upon brain wiring: some people are innately better at science and some are innately better at liberal arts. It is kind of like saying brain surgery is harder than basketball. Well, maybe not for the brain surgeon, who maybe was never athletic. I don't think you can make such sweeping generalizations and dismiss the fact that different people are wired differently. One question I have is "WHY are sciences valued more than liberal arts?" The answer might be that it is a "pink collar ghetto" phenomenon for liberal arts.

    I think I could critique a few other points. But, hey, I already have lost most folks, whose eyes are glazing over by now.

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Floridays's avatar
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    (APA 1994 Salary Survey)

    Gender earnings have not changed much in the last decade. In 1995, females earned 85 cents on the dollar, whereas earnings in 2004 are still at 86 cents on the dollar. The gender gap grows with increasing experience:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails chart_xgenderandexperience.jpg  

  4. #4
    Cyburbian Achernar's avatar
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    I think it's a bit simplistic to say that the 25 reasons listed don't have a sexist component. It's a common misconception that the only kind of sexism is employers saying, "You're a woman; therefore I will pay you less."

    For instance, why is it that wives are less willing than husbands to relocate their families for the benefit of their careers? Is it because that's genuinely how women tend to feel, or is it because they've been given the impression that that's how things should be their whole lives? I don't know, but until we rid society of the idea that women's and men's careers are fundamentally different, we can't be sure.

    The same goes for a lot of the other "non-sexist" reasons. Why are women expected to be more involved in childrearing? Why do we tend to pay traditionally male jobs more than traditionally female jobs? And so on.

  5. #5
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    I knew of a guy once who wanted to hire an immigrant (H1B) woman with high credentials for a position on his staff. He wanted a women because he felt that they were less likely to stand up for themselves, he wanted an H1B immigrant because he wanted something more than simply losing her job to hold over her head, and he wanted her to have credentials so that he could attach her name to the bull**** he would occasionally publish to lend credibility to it (at the expense of her professional reputation).

    Needless to say, he was the scum of the earth.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Old School

    Why don't you gals quit your bitching and get me a beer while I tell you why I should earn more money than you...

    PS - I'm sorry but I just can't feel to bad about this particular social indicator. Women live longer, have a far better institutionalized support structure, have less social pressure to succeed, and far fewer of you get killed on the job in grusome ways like many men. Nope, it all shakes out. Now, where's that beer?

  7. #7
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    Now, where's that beer?
    Wait, it's on the way. I just have to make a little stop at the little ladies room. You don't mind it warm, do you?







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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    Wait, it's on the way. I just have to make a little stop at the little ladies room. You don't mind it warm, do you?






    He he, I think all the females around here would like to say thanks for that one Good one, very good one...couldn't have thought of a better response myself

  9. #9
    Cyburbian Big Red's avatar
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    Did someone give you the name el Guapo or did the social pressure to succeed drive you to label yourself the handsome one?
    Maybe the most any of us can expect of ourselves isn't perfection but progress.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Big Red
    Did someone give you the name el Guapo or did the social pressure to succeed drive you to label yourself the handsome one?

    el Guapo is known to many and understood by few.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Big Red's avatar
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    He's a complicated man, and no-one understands him but his donkey...
    Maybe the most any of us can expect of ourselves isn't perfection but progress.

  12. #12
          Downtown's avatar
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    Honestly - the only time I get my pink panties in a wad is when women don't receive equal pay for equal work. Or aren't hired/promoted/whatever, simply because they're women, even if they're just as or more qualified. But to take a group of women's salaries and compare them to men's salaries, of course men are going to generally earn more:

    - they generally work more hours
    - they generally don't have to take time off from their careers for birthing/raising babies, setting them back the pay scale
    - per El Guapo's point - they generally work in more dangerous (and higher paying) fields

  13. #13
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Off-topic:
    Quote Originally posted by Big Red
    Did someone give you the name el Guapo or did the social pressure to succeed drive you to label yourself the handsome one?
    He is loved and adored by this community. You have to get to know him and his twisted sense of humor. I may shoot down his comments but I would never shoot him down.

    You are new around here. Pull up a chair. Have a beer (just not don't ask me to serve it ) and don't jump to conclusions.


    I luv ya, eG. And I agree with some of your points. I just wish we could start a substantive, non-confrontational conversation about the topic. I get a little tired of some of the guys (not you) overreacting when I try to give my point of view -- as if seeing it differently from a guy just because I have been a homemaker for two decades automatically must mean I am man-bashing. Sorry. Not interested in man-bashing. I prefer to spend my time with men in more pleasurable pursuits.

  14. #14
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    I just wish we could start a substantive, non-confrontational conversation about the topic.
    Women should get paid less than men for several reasons:
    1. As long as women are willing to settle for being paid less, they should be paid less. It's simply a manifestation of a free market economy. Men fought many strikes/walkouts and other labor battles historically for the compensations they receive today. We see no comparable concerted effort on the part of women.

    2. Women often remove themselves from the workforce for childcare responsibilities during an important stage of career development. Often in their mid-late 20's many young women stay home with their children for several years. This shortfall of experience is never made up. It makes young women less marketable for employers who are seeking some continuity in employee development and retention.

    3. Women as a group are not/have not been as devoted to their careers as men. It's both acculturated and it's in their physical makeup. Many more men view their careers as being their raison d'etre than women. Women are more willing to sacrifice (see reason 1) their careers simply because they view it as being a less significant component of their lives. Many men view commitment to their careers as being the single greatest contribution to their families that they can make.

    4. Why, it says so in the Bible. Woman was created to be man's helper. You know, subservient, obediant, etc. It's in the wedding vows too (obey). It only stands to reason that if the Creator of the Universe - God himself (a dude I should point out) has ordained that women should serve in a supporting role, who are we to go against His will. Of couse we will pay women less because their contributions are inherently less valuable.
    Last edited by Maister; 09 Mar 2005 at 10:55 AM.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  15. #15
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    ROFLOL.

    Quote Originally posted by Maister
    2. Women often remove themselves from the workforce for childcare responsibilities

    4. Of couse we will pay women less because their contributions are inherently less valuable.
    Okay, let's return to the point from the article that one reason men get paid better is because they work "in an unpleasant environment (prison vs. childcare facility)". So, to sum up The Word according to el Guapo and The Maister (and all of north america, apparently): Thou shalt devalue our child-rearing women and refuse to support their efforts to raise Good Citizens, then pay the men highly to do the dangerous work of corralling these brats who weren't raised right after they are 6' 2" and their Bad Behavior is now Criminal. By denying women the support they need to do their jobs well -- raising kiddos -- we create more highly valued, violent dangerous work for our all important men. Cuz we have our values straight.

    Gotcha. I stand corrected. What a wonderful world we live in.
    Last edited by Michele Zone; 09 Mar 2005 at 1:18 PM.

  16. #16
         
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister
    Women should get paid less than men for several reasons:
    1. As long as women are willing to settle for being paid less, they should be paid less. It's simply a manifestation of a free market economy. Men fought many strikes/walkouts and other labor battles historically for the compensations they receive today. We see no comparable concerted effort on the part of women.

    2. Women often remove themselves from the workforce for childcare responsibilities during an important stage of career development. Often in their mid-late 20's many young women stay home with their children for several years. This shortfall of experience is never made up. It makes young women less marketable for employers who are seeking some continuity in employee development and retention.

    3. Women as a group are not/have not been as devoted to their careers as men. It's both acculturated and it's in their physical makeup. Many more men view their careers as being their raison d'etre than women. Women are more willing to sacrifice (see reason 1) their careers simply because they view it as being a less significant component of their lives. Many men view commitment to their careers as being the single greatest contribution to their families that they can make.

    4. Why, it says so in the Bible. Woman was created to be man's helper. You know, subservient, obediant, etc. It's in the wedding vows too (obey). It only stands to reason that if the Creator of the Universe - God himself (a dude I should point out) has ordained that women should serve in a supporting role, who are we to go against His will. Of couse we will pay women less because their contributions are inherently less valuable.
    1. Wasn't aware strikes were specifically for "mens" salaries. Women are union members as well and I have seen plenty of women standing on pickets lines. I thought strikes were for better wages/benefits/etc...of ALL the union, not just the men.

    2. The women doesn't HAVE to remove herself from the workforce to raise children, it is an option for men as well. Its just that too often the man will not remove himself and someone has to do it. And there are those women that only remove themselves for 6 weeks..missing 6 weeks of a job does not constitute as "shortfall of experience".

    3. I personally view my career as the greatest contribution to my family. There are hundreds of thousands of women that view their career as fundamental to thier family and the greatest contribution. If it were not for my career my family wouldn't have a home, food or transportation.

    4. The bible says so?? Well I am not religious and have never read the bible so I can't really defend this part. I know that I personally had the word "obey" removed from my vows, each of us.

    I don't believe all of these are personal I think they are equally divided. Yes, there are plenty of women that choose to stay home and raise children and I think MZ made the point that if more people (man and women) had a goal of raising more productive members of society, men wouldn't have to work so hard to train.
    I know women are paid less than men overall but I surely do not think it is because we haven't fought hard enough or take time out to raise a family.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    You know, Jaxspra, Maister was being funny. He doesn't believe that at all. His wife is an attorney. And eG is also BS-ing everyone. His wife is "Dr. Mrs. El Guapo" and ....I can't say more, because I feel it would violate his privacy.

    This is part of why we can't discuss this issue: the men get defensive, the women get defensive, then folks start hurling accusations, yadda yadda -- the next thing you know, the thread is shut down and there are hurt feelings on all sides (making it that much harder to talk about it the next time it comes up).

    I don't think this can be discussed in a head-to-head fashion, where we try to compare 'job compensation' in a one-for-one manner. The roots of it go to social values and social expectations and are way more complicated that just the dollar amount of the paycheck. The solutions are also not as simple as "paying women more".
    Last edited by Michele Zone; 09 Mar 2005 at 2:17 PM.

  18. #18
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    Thou shalt devalue our child-rearing women and refuse to support their efforts to raise Good Citizens, then pay the men highly to do the dangerous work of corralling these brats who weren't raised right after they are 6' 2" and their Bad Behavior is now Criminal.
    See, if the ladies would simply follow the time honored plan and stay home bearing children, (good husbands make sure their womenfolk are properly shod, contrary to popular opinion), baking pies, and imparting proper gender role reinforcement to our children, we wouldn't have to be dealing with all those improperly raised/psychotic brats to begin with. But instead we made the mistake of listening to all those liberal minded women's right types back in the 60's and 70's and look where it's got us now. Women currently account for about half the workforce, but do so at the expense of our children's well being. Women should stay at home raising children and men's salaries should be proportionally higher to reflect this difference in gender roles. Whyever would we want to offer women any further incentive, such as higher wages, to abandon their True Role (as nurturer)? Also, isn't it unfair that employers should have to shoulder the burden of effecting some sort of liberally mandated social change? The business of business should be business and not trying to fulfill some sort of feminist social agenda. The free market system is premised on the idea of survival of the fittest and encouraging women into positions of responsibility where they can conveniently abdicate is an economic absurdity. For example, an employer learns that 3rd quarter sales are down 10% and discovers one of the reasons why is that the Marketing director (a woman) is on 12 weeks of FMLA. That's not enough time to train a decent replacement! Just have to wait for her to get back and up to speed and hope for a better 4th quarter I guess. I wonder how the CEO will report the downturn to the stockholders.... the back story is that the employer didn't want to hire her to begin with for this very reason, but was afraid he'd face a discrimination lawsuit if he didn't hire her.
    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    I stand corrected. What a wonderful world we live in.
    Well you're right about it being a messed up world. And it's all Liberals' fault. If only things could have remained like they did in the Good Old Days, we wouldn't be having all these problems......
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  19. #19
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister
    See, if the ladies would simply follow the time honored plan and stay home bearing children, (good husbands make sure their womenfolk are properly shod, contrary to popular opinion), baking pies, and imparting proper gender role reinforcement to our children, we wouldn't have to be dealing with all those improperly raised/psychotic brats to begin with.
    <SNIP>
    Well you're right about it being a messed up world. And it's all Liberals' fault. If only things could have remained like they did in the Good Old Days, we wouldn't be having all these problems......
    See, my own sexist, old-fashioned biases are showing. I DID stay home to raise my kids. For a long time. And I enthusiastically cooked dinner and made homemade desert, yadda yadda -- and it didn't get me what I wanted. Sigh.

    So, Maister, can you refer me to a service where I can find a "good husband"? Clearly, my career goals couldn't have anything to do with intellectual cravings that drooling infants can't possibly satisfy. If only I had a Good Husband instead of the guy I married, I would be dutifully obedient. It is not like I ever had a rebellious personality in youth or something.

    And I need a new Victoria's Secret catalog. Being sick for so long, I haven't worn or bought any properly trashy undergarments recently. If I am going to secure a Proper and Good Husband, I better brush up on my skills of acting like a total bimbo in private.
    Last edited by Michele Zone; 09 Mar 2005 at 2:19 PM.

  20. #20
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    See, my own sexist, old-fashioned biases are showing. I DID stay home to raise my kids. For a long time. And I enthusiastically cooked dinner and made homemade desert, yadda yadda -- and it didn't get me what I wanted. Sigh.

    So, Maister, can you refer me to a service where I can find a "good husband"? Clearly, my career goals couldn't have anything to do with intellectual cravings that drooling infants can't possibly satisfy. If only I had a Good Husband instead of the guy I married, I would be dutifully obedient. It is not like I ever had a rebellious personality in youth or something.

    And I need a new Victoria's Secret catalog. Being sick for so long, I haven't worn or bought any properly trashy undergarments recently. If I am going to secure a Proper and Good Husband, I better brush up on my skills of acting like a total bimbo in private.
    Well there's always going to be a few malcontents no matter what you do. If you're looking for a Good Husband I recommend you check out the local Lutheran Church they frequently host 'Singles Nights'. You'll be sure with the wisdom and guidance of the church to find a good Christian man who embodies the desirable characteristics I'm talking about. Sorry, I don't have any Victoria's Secret catalogs handy. I'm sure Michaelskis or any number of single guys out there could perhaps spare one of their copies (that is if you don't mind the dog-eared pages)....

    Any time some REAL conservative wants to come forward and start making arguments go right ahead. Yep, any time....
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  21. #21
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister
    Well there's always going to be a few malcontents no matter what you do. If you're looking for a Good Husband I recommend you check out the local Lutheran Church they frequently host 'Singles Nights'. You'll be sure with the wisdom and guidance of the church to find a good Christian man who embodies the desirable characteristics I'm talking about. Sorry, I don't have any Victoria's Secret catalogs handy. I'm sure Michaelskis or any number of single guys out there could perhaps spare one of their copies (that is if you don't mind the dog-eared pages)....

    Any time some REAL conservative wants to come forward and start making arguments go right ahead. Yep, any time....
    I don't actually want the dog-eared hand-me-down catalog from some single guy. Really, such men ought to just be ordering me lingerie from therein. A Respectable Woman doesn't actually buy such things for herself. She shouldn't do such things as Take Mr. Zone into the dressing room with her to make sure he likes the aforementioned purchases. That wouldn't be sufficiently Uptight to be a Good Wife.

  22. #22
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    You know, Jaxspra, Maister was being funny. He doesn't believe that at all. His wife is an attorney. And eG is also BS-ing everyone. His wife is "Dr. Mrs. El Guapo"
    Shhhh you are ruining everything! But tell me you haven't heard all of those arguments seriously raised before? Is there perhaps some legitimacy behind this worldview? No, there never really was a Norman Rockwell/Jerry Mathers Good Ol' Days, but perhaps these mindsets do accurately reflect legitimate attitudes.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  23. #23
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister
    Shhhh you are ruining everything!
    But it isn't funny if no one but me gets the joke. I am just expanding your audience.


    Quote Originally posted by Maister
    But tell me you haven't heard all of those arguments seriously raised before? Is there perhaps some legitimacy behind this worldview? No, there never really was a Norman Rockwell/Jerry Mathers Good Ol' Days, but perhaps these mindsets do accurately reflect legitimate attitudes.
    I think there is some legitimacy. Sorry, I am not politically correct (or maybe the right word is "modern") and I stayed home with my kids and I homeschool. I have a close friend who feels strongly that daycare is bad for kids -- especially fragile, special needs kids. My sister left a 15 year career and stayed home with her daughter for 5 years. It was psychologically and practically possible for her do that because our parents are so old-fashioned and believe that small kids need their mom to be home with them. And I lent her important support that cannot be quanitified with a dollar value. She had all these ideas about "a maternity wardrobe" for her job. I laughed. She had all these ideas about how to handle money that only applied to her life when she was single and childless or part of a DINK couple in her first marriage. All her judgments about me and my "failures" with money evaporated after she had a child: her finances look a lot like mine these days.

    I actually have things I need to do this afternoon or I would love to go on at some length about how I think there is some biological basis for moms staying home with small kids. BUT, also, with women living into their 80's on average and having about 1.5 kids, it is unreasonable to expect women to remain "homemakers". Sorry, even if I only live into my 60's (because of my genetic disorder), my kids are now teenagers. Some of the sickest behavior I have ever witnessed has been by moms who needed their kids (to define them and give them meaningful, fulfilling work, a role, etc) ever so much more than the kids needed them. A woman who is restricted to such a role becomes warped. She is forbidden from growing. It tends to turn women into monsters, IMO.

  24. #24
         
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    You know, Jaxspra, Maister was being funny. He doesn't believe that at all. His wife is an attorney. And eG is also BS-ing everyone. His wife is "Dr. Mrs. El Guapo" and ....I can't say more, because I feel it would violate his privacy.

    This is part of why we can't discuss this issue: the men get defensive, the women get defensive, then folks start hurling accusations, yadda yadda -- the next thing you know, the thread is shut down and there are hurt feelings on all sides (making it that much harder to talk about it the next time it comes up).

    I don't think this can be discussed in a head-to-head fashion, where we try to compare 'job compensation' in a one-for-one manner. The roots of it go to social values and social expectations and are way more complicated that just the dollar amount of the paycheck. The solutions are also not as simple as "paying women more".
    Thank you for the "heads up", I sort of figured and hoped he was being facetious but I couldnt be sure and I just couldnt let those comments go unresponded too I was having a hard time believing someone around Cyburbia really believed that, but then again there are plenty out there that do...so anyway thanks
    And I also agree that this cannot be discussed in a head-to-head fashion...and even if it could, its not like anyones views would be changed here or at all for that matter...

  25. #25
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    el Guapo's Top 10 Feminist Afirming Comments

    For the Record.
    1. el Guapo loves all the women of the world.
    2. el Guapo was raised in a home where the wife and mother had 50% of the authority and she and her husband considered each other as equals.
    3. el Guapo has worked for women, with women and in a supervisory roll over women.
    4. el Guapo treats all women with respect and dignity.
    5. el Guapo has promoted women of child bearing years over their male counterparts when they deserved it.
    6. el Guapo believes having babies is important and does everything he can to support the women who choose to have offspring and work.
    7. el Guapo believes that there are fundamental physical and mental differences between the sexes (on average).
    8. el Guapo believes those differences are a good thing. Otherwise all us guys would still be living in a frat house envrionment (not that there is anything wrong with that).
    9. el Guapo also believes you make your own destiny and class/sex warfare is for the weak.
    10. el Guapo recognizes that a great pair gives advantages to a woman willing to us them in the business world and you don't hear too much whining about that now do you?

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