Does Canada have protectionism laws for banks? I know that there are much fewer banks in the states than there were 20 years ago due to mergers. Maybe it is pointless to compare Toronto to the regions in the states? How about comparing it to Subury? Windsor? Clagary? Winnepeg? Any Canadians out there that have seen similar problems?Originally posted by Copper
I'm well aware of how over-strong local government, especially at the township level, is in Michigan. IMHO, that in itself is a serious economic development drag in parts of the state. I was just wondering what the effects might be if the State of Michigan were able to do something like force-merge most or all of the Detroit urbanized area into one municipality like the provincial governments can in Canada.
And as you are aware, Detroit is not the only Michigan city where much, if not most, of its land area is fast returning to primal forest, along with the other related problems that hasten that death-spiral, Flint and Benton Harbor are two others.
I recall reading about a city political campaign in the City of Toronto in the late 1980s where one of the candidates (an NDP one, IIRC) actually advocated using up the remainder of the city's debt limit room to fund more social program spending, essentially maxing the city's credit cards in a reckless social-welfare spending binge. Thankfully, he lost.
Mike
Mayor Daley realized early in his tenure that providing services is far more important than minimizing taxes. And in fact he's had a policy since the early nineties of simply pouring money into a problem until it's fixed. People want police who respond quickly, clean beautiful parks, functioning schools, responsive bureaucracies, well-stocked libraries, clean streets, trash that gets picked up, plenty of activities, and a general feeling of prosperity and progressiveness.
If you provide that, then they’ll be willing to pay.
A few years ago, Cook County botched a reassessment, causing many people’s property taxes to double or triple, which angered them. So now Daley is afraid to continue to increase property taxes (he even jumped on a tax-rate cap bandwagon) so now he’s balancing the budget with things like beer taxes, but still no service reductions.
Taxes have gone up most years of Daley’s reign, and they’ve never gone down. And there’s plenty of grumbling every year around budget time, but the new taxes pass and everyone goes on happy there won’t be any service cuts.
Of course our governor doesn’t comprehend that and that’s the reason why the state is in such a place.
Toronto is slightly different. It's now in a state of rising taxes and falling services with a growing percentage of the budget going to bankers on Wall Street in the form of interest payments on the debt. Chicago seems to be able to errect commercial buildings, but Toronto has definetly had its office construction stunted and high taxes is what the industry claims is the reason for choosing the suburbs over downtown.
The annual budget gap is now at 1.1 billion and rising. This is because Toronto has been spending bg, but unlike Chicago, it has been keeping its taxes low and instead relying on debt financing, asset sales, and deffering maintenance projects in order to keep the city running.
Going back to Toronto.
Here's an article that appeared in today's Toronto Star online edition.
Strong mayor would cut business tax: Planner
PAUL MOLONEY
CITY HALL BUREAU
A stronger downtown Toronto requires a stronger mayor, a conference was told yesterday.
A mayor with the clout to push an agenda is the only way businesses can get relief from the high property taxes that encourage them to move to the 905 suburbs where taxes are lower, urban planner Joe Berridge told a Canadian Urban Institute gathering yesterday.
An institute report said Toronto's downtown, the country's premier business district, saw only seven class A office buildings go up since 1998, while 102 were built outside the city, particularly in Mississauga and along the Highway 407 corridor. Commercial property taxes on class A space averages $12.07 a square foot downtown but only $7.99 a square foot at highways 404 and 407, it said.
A mayor with more power could work to lower the business tax rate by shifting more of the tax burden to homeowners, Berridge said.
But the property tax burden on business is not an issue at Toronto City Council. Many councillors say the downtown office towers can afford to pay and they argue many employers must stay in Canada's financial centre.
Only one of the 44 city councillors attended the morning conference, called Business Competitiveness in the GTA: Why Toronto is Losing Ground.
"If you're getting banking jobs (and) corporate office jobs moving out, those are essentially middle-class, professional administrative jobs. And we don't want to end up with a city which is very rich and very poor," said Berridge.
One way to lower business taxes is to increase taxes on homeowners, but the current ward-based city council has little incentive to do that, he said.
"People get elected from wards of homeowners." Downtown councillors "are not going to get re-elected if they say, `lower commercial property taxes.'"
Berridge said that's why the city needs a mayor with enough power to implement a gradual shift, so business taxes drop and residential taxes rise over five or 10 years.
In 2005, homeowners pay slightly more than 0.9 per cent of the property's value in taxes. Commercial owners pay 4.5 per cent — five times the residential rate.
Narrowing the gap over time "is essentially a declaration that needs to be heard," Berridge said.
"I think you have to take this very big gamble that essentially creates a more powerful mayor, a stronger executive governance for the city."
Mayor David Miller said the urban institute has highlighted an important problem but one that could be addressed if the province lowered the education portion of the property tax bill.
Well some people in the planning industry believe Joe Berridge is controversial and rightly so.
Ok so your proposition going to cut business taxes and raise homeowner taxes. Are we going to go the way of places like San Francisco, LA and NYC where it's expensive to live in the city no matter where you live? I guess what he's trying to say is to make the city more prosperous and have more economic power. So would that also mean that because of the cut in taxes for business, you're going to pay your employees more money to cover the cost of the higher homeowner taxes and the standard of living has increased substantially?
Last edited by NHPlanner; 11 Jul 2005 at 2:46 PM.
Did you bother to read the original posting? Once the jobs leave, the people will leave. If businesses are voting with their feet Toronto does have something to worry about.
Ths goes back to what jordanb is saying. In Chicago when better services are provided, homeowners had their property taxes soar to cover the cost of the services. In Toronto, there was a tax hike on the residential base of 3% which brought in approximatly $33 million, but the cost of running the city jumped several hundred million. The shortfall was funded with the sale of income producing assets, provincial bailouts, and debt financing. The new taxes of $33 million cover the interest payment on the new debt but not much else.
So the next fiscal year starts, the city has to beg for another provincial bailout, it still has the shortfall it failed to solve from last year, and spending increases yet again.Year after year the problem multiplies and nothing is being done to solve it: either cut spending or raise taxes up significantly to cover the cost of spending.
Right now 10 cents out of every tax dollar in Toronto goes toward interest on the debt. This is a rule Toronto has in place to keep it from getting its credit rating lowered by the S&P. However this fiscal year there is talk of scraping that rule -- to allow more than 10 cents out of every dollar to pay debt interest -- in order to keep the city running.
It's a mess which has been swept under the rug for years, but now the **** is starting to hit the fan.
Off-topic:
It's expensive to live in San Francisco not because of taxes per se (they are capped at 1.1% by Proposition 13) but because there is an excessive demand for housing in The City, exacerbated by anti-development NIMBYism, constraints on growth (the city is a penninsula surrounded by water on three sides and is largely built out) and the "easy money" promoted by the Federal Reserve to stave off a major financial crash following the dot-bom.
California municipalities do not depend that much on property taxes. Of course, taxes of 1% on a $750,000 2 br-1-bath cottage in a marginal neighborhood are a burden, but the underlying affordability problem in the city is not really caused by taxes.
Something some may find interesting: http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/mayor_...alcapacity.pdf
Not necessarily. Firstly, the population of downtown Toronto has been increasing rapidly, particularly over the last 5 years. Downtown living is very popular and in fact, many people already 'reverse commute' to their jobs in the suburbs. Vancouver is experiencing the same situation. People who are choosing to live downtown do so for the vibrant atmosphere, its amenities and services...something that most suburbs can't replicate.
Regardless, I believe these allegations of 'businesses fleeing to the suburbs' is over-hyped. Read the office market reports published by commercial real estate firms and you'll notice that downtown Toronto is actually doing quite well. One can really start to worry when the overall number of people employed in the downtown shrinks, the banks move to Mississauga and office vacancy rates increase dramatically.
"First we shape our buildings, and then our buildings start shaping us." - Sir Winston Churchill
I don't disagree but if more bbusinesses leave there will eventually be a 'tipping point' where suddenly the tax burden continues to shift onto the residents instead of the business community. All I am doing is putting it into the persective of someone who has seen the impact of this over his lifetime to a very similar city just down the 401.
GET RID OF THAT UGLY SIGN SUPPOSEDLY PROMOTING Toronto UNLIMITED...lol
BYthe way, I can't remember where I read it but Kwame was voted as the WORST Mayor in the US. Says a lot about Detroit's renaissance. HAHA!!!!
After the All Star game and SuperBowl, things will go back to normal, DOWNHILL!!!!
Moderator note:
Yellow card issued to Andreplanner for the above comments, which run contrary to forum rules, which state"Don't be a jerk"
Last edited by Tranplanner; 12 Jul 2005 at 10:23 AM.
What does this have to do with the thread? Are you just some rag-on Detroit all the time idiot? Did you know Detroit has led Michigan in new housing starts for the past several years? What does Kwame have to do with Tornoto? Througout this thread I've had to defend Detroit more than I've had to any other thread, do you folks across the river have some sort of inferiority complex that manifests itself as 'Man we may live in Onatario, but at least we ain't Detroit, attitudes?"
Is it because Detroit teams actually win Stanley cups and other titles? When was the last time a Canadian team won anything? Edmonton?
Dammed arrogant Canadians, go back to drinkng your Tim Hortons and clubbing baby seals; stop being fascinated by things you obviously know nothing about.
Moderator note:
Erp. Yep - sorry Detroitplanner. Andreplanner's comments were way out of line and I apologize on behalf of the mods on not catching it sooner, and on behalf of all Torontonians for his ignorant and ill-advised comments. But as much as the original comments were inflammatory, there is no need to stoop to Andreplanner's level and retaliate.
This thread will be closed soon otherwise.
Last edited by Tranplanner; 12 Jul 2005 at 10:30 AM.
Thanks
Yeah, I did not think of Canadians as such a mean lot! I've worked with many Canadians and heck I live among them as being from a border community. Maybe he was having a bad day, but there are times when I am tired of coming from a city I am trying to resurect only to have supposively learned professionals rip on it as if it is okay to do. Ripping on Detroit is a bit like ripping on Kristy Alley for having a weight problem. It happens, but is it really funny, or is it just mean spirited and just a distraction in order for one to feel superior?
I don't know how my comments were out of line? I only reiterated a comment referring to what I read in an article about the Mayors across the US, just like I would about our own mayor.
Still boggles my mind but if it's offensive then fine but I guess to each their own in their taste. But to say all those things 20x worst that what I said makes me wonder.
I'm not saying Detroit is any better or any worse than Toronto. Just only making a comment. Oh well.
Yes, Caanda has very protectionist laws with respect to banking. There are limits to foriegn ownership and a few other things. The big banks are merging and consolidating into fewer corporations getting ready to jump outside of canada.
This has led to many branches being closed, especially in smaller, rural areas.
Canada also has had a very high buy in for the use of debit/electronic banking.
Too lazy to beat myself up for being to lazy to beat myself up for being too lazy to... well you get the point....
New sign causing a stir
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