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Thread: High taxes causing Toronto businesses to vote with their feet

  1. #1
    Cyburbian Plus OfficialPlanner's avatar
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    High taxes causing Toronto businesses to vote with their feet

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...ent/Columnists

    Ratepayers may be on hook in downtown tax revolt
    By JOHN BARBER

    Tuesday, April 12, 2005 Page A13

    Amid the steady drip of budget shortfalls, pressures, gaps and general fiscal leakage afflicting the municipal government, Toronto is now facing the loss of $60-million in a tax revolt launched by the owners of its biggest and most lucrative commercial properties.

    And residential taxpayers will be responsible for making up the loss should the revolt succeed -- an amount equal to a 6-per-cent tax hike, in the worst-case scenario set out in a confidential report from city officials.

    The report, signed by Treasurer Joseph Pennachetti, warns that successful assessment appeals by the city's dozen largest office buildings would not only result in a major loss of previously collected revenue -- $120-million in total, including $60-million collected by local school boards since 2001 -- but could also set off a flood of similar appeals, with even more serious consequences for the city treasury and residential taxpayers.

    As a result, the treasurer is recommending that the city take the unusual step of attempting to safeguard its revenue by hiring lawyers and experts to join the appeal process.

    "Should this group be successful, there's a serious concern that it would cause a cascading effect," Councillor Brian Ashton, chair of council's economic development committee, said yesterday. "The city needs to insert itself into the process."

    The assessments under appeal account for virtually all of Toronto's inventory of "triple-A" office buildings clustered in the financial district.

    In all, the owners of 13 buildings, including all the major bank towers, have joined the appeal, seeking a reduction in assessments going back to 2001.

    Quite apart from its potentially devastating effect on all downtown office assessments, the triple-A tax revolt dramatizes the city's reliance on a financial district that is clearly overtaxed and, just as clearly, has failed to grow in recent years.

    Every year, the dozen-odd buildings whose assessments are under appeal produce more than $250-million in revenue for City Hall and local school boards.

    Meanwhile, virtually all office development in Greater Toronto is taking place in the outer suburbs.

    Saying the current revolt is "not surprising," Phil Gillin of the Toronto Office Coalition warned that excessive taxes on downtown buildings will almost certainly inspire more appeals.

    "There's a huge spread between suburban taxes and downtown taxes without a lot of justification," he said.

    Businesses that aren't appealing are "voting with their feet," added Mr. Gillin, chair of a group that represents many of the largest commercial property owners and tenants in Toronto.

    "You can see it looking out your window," he said.

    "There's no commercial development going on in the city. In the 905 zone, there has been 89 office buildings built in the last five years. In the city there has been 12 built over the same time period."

    More than 45,000 people work in those new suburban buildings, he added, versus about 6,000 in the city's dozen new office buildings.

    The increasing disparity in economic development between the city and the suburbs is "very inefficient from an infrastructure perspective, from a land use perspective and from an environmental perspective," according to Mr. Gillin.

    "It's totally inconsistent with planning principles by every government, but it just keeps happening."

    For his part, Councillor Ashton blames provincial policies that "allow other municipalities to siphon off the financial core" for this latest assault on city revenues.

    "It's what weakened the U.S. cities in decades gone by and it's happening here today," he said. "We can kill our financial district in a whole number of ways."

    For now, the blame game is still abstract. But when city officials turn to residential taxpayers to make up "cascading" losses of revenue from commercial properties, it will become desperately real.

  2. #2
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    These banks all made RECORD profits in the last few years and now they do this? Despicable.

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Plus OfficialPlanner's avatar
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    It's not the banks but rather the property owners who are appealing. They have fixed leases signed but the city keeps raising property taxes every year on em. It's hurting their profits and it's driving up downtown costs per sq ft. As a result, companies are flocking to the suburbs which have a much friendlier business climate.

    The only way downtown office towers can compete is to appeal their property tax assessments. If that does not succeed we'll probably see vacancy rates continue to rise and more suburban office construction.

  4. #4
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    Is the problem high taxes, or is the problem locked-in leases that do not rise as tax rises? Are Toronto's property taxes really that out of sync with most urban centres?

  5. #5
    Cyburbian Plus OfficialPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by abrowne
    Is the problem high taxes, or is the problem locked-in leases that do not rise as tax rises? Are Toronto's property taxes really that out of sync with most urban centres?
    Good questions. I have no idea.

    Here is what I could find.


    Average Downtown Real Estate Taxes 2003 $ /S.F.
    Toronto 12.23
    Montreal 4.35
    Ottawa 6.95
    Calgary 3.71
    Edmonton 1.44
    Vancouver 6.03

    Source: Altus Group

    Looks like Toronto is indeed very high. Compare to the suburbs and it's no wonder why they have seen the bulk of office construction.

    Downtown Toronto $12.23
    Mississauga $4.13
    Brampton $3.28
    Vaughan $2.51

    $12.23 a square foot goes to taxes while only $2.51 a square foot in Vaughan. WOW!
    Last edited by NHPlanner; 11 Jul 2005 at 2:46 PM.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    That's a pretty extreme difference. And the difference isn't due to transit systems, either, as Montreal has an extensive transit system, and Vancouver and Calgary have... well, they have transit systems. Extensive not so much.

  7. #7
    maudit anglais
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    The primary difference is that historically Toronto has relied on the commercial tax-base to "subsidize" residents while suburban municipalities keep commercial taxes low to attract business and have comparatively higher residential tax rates. Toronto has lower residential tax rates than any of the surrounding municipalities. And (for better or worse) the City provides many more services (cultural, social, etc.) than any of the outlying municipalities. Toronto has been limited (by the Province) to increasing commercial taxes only 50% of any residential increases. The previous Provincial government had frozen commercial tax increases in the City.

    Unfortunately, raising residential taxes to ease the burden on commercial properties is political suicide.

    Given the rate of recent residential tax increases in the suburban municipalities (now that many of them are running out of revenue from development fees), I wonder how long it will be before things start to equalize somewhat.

  8. #8
    Cyburbian Plus OfficialPlanner's avatar
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    I wonder how long it will be before things start to equalize somewhat
    I donno. Toronto has been borrowing and rading its reserve accounts for a number of years now inorder to fund its operating budget. As a result, its keeping residential taxes artificially low. If not for the fancy accounting, Toronto's residential tax increases would probably have to be greater than those in the suburbs. But sooner or later the chickens are gonna come home to roost.

    I think the suburbs have demonstrated that the correct approach is for the residential tax base to subsidize the commercial propertise in order to attract investment to the city and keep things competitive.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    Vancouver borrowed this year from its contingency fund as well (also to fund operating costs). As far as I know the amount was a comparatively small drops (few million dollars or so) of a $1.4 billion reserve bucket.

    Does anyone know how much Toronto has depleted its reserves as of late? Businesses fleeing, tax-gathering difficulties, diminishing reserve funds... very bad signs.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Plus OfficialPlanner's avatar
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    Oh... we're not talking about contingency funds, as in those used for rainy days. Toronto has been rading its reserve funds which would normally go towards capital replacements of roads, sewers, etc... then borrowing on top of that just for day to day operations.

    Not only does Toronto now have to pay interest on the borrowings, but it must repay the reserve funds. It's unsustainable, but as tranplanner said, the politicans don't want to cut services or raise taxes too much on homeowners. So at least under this method, they can delay the hard decisions. The TTC settlement of $166 million might be the final nail in the coffin. I won't be suprised if the budget shortfall for 2006 is anywhere above $150 million, up from $124.8 million in 2005.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    There was an interesting editorial in the Globe and Mail today about creating a system of constant expansion of the subway system. The author deemed that putting 407-style gantries on major roads in Toronto, and making transponders mandatory, could raise $350 million per year for the purpose of transit expansion.

    I'm not so sure people will accept tolls of already built infrastructure... I don't know anyone that even likes the idea of the 407. To most it is an expensive waste, it would seem.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian Plus OfficialPlanner's avatar
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    I guess it could happen, but I personally don't see it anytime soon.

    The administration of such a system is anywhere from 20-30% of total revenues, as seen with the 407. Even if 350 million could be raised, $70 million would be for admin.

    Maybe tranplanner would know more about this?

  13. #13
    maudit anglais
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    No clue, sorry. I don't think we'll see any additional road tolling in Toronto anytime soon. The political will just isn't there, nor are the transport alternatives. Tolling access to the downtown would probably just further encourage businesses to relocate to the suburbs - it's not likely that the tolls would be used to offset commercial taxes, there are too many other funding needs.

  14. #14
    Cyburbian Plus OfficialPlanner's avatar
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    Yikes...

    Just read this on one of the other forums...

    City is stuck in a $1B hole and sinking fast

    ROYSON JAMES

    Mayor David Miller's city will send a whopping $29.3 billion in PST, GST and income and corporate taxes to Ottawa and the province this year. Not nearly enough returns to Toronto, a city stuck in a $1 billion hole.

    Miller finds his city's fiscal outlook "extremely worrying." Anne Golden of the Conference Board of Canada says it's "unhealthy, not sustainable and counterproductive."

    Both are looking at the stark findings of a study measuring Toronto's ability to finance itself over the next two decades and, not surprisingly, the picture is gloomy.

    Barring sustained and significant intervention from the federal and provincial governments, Toronto will be $1.1 billion in the hole, and rising, each and every year for the next 20 years, starting in 2006.

    This is assuming current levels of property tax increases. After the new gas tax revenues from Queen's Park and Ottawa. After the extra $200 million in transit funds NDP Leader Jack Layton negotiated to get in the federal budget. After the federal GST rebate. After some new provincial gas tax revenues. And in spite of all of the above.

    And it is assuming the province lifts the prohibition against Toronto hiking taxes on its businesses, which is not a given.[/b]

    How did the fiscal crisis occur? Slowly and deliberately and predictably. It's not news to anyone who's been paying attention. But yesterday it was laid out in black and white by the credible Conference Board of Canada, using, it says, conservative estimates and assumptions.

    Toronto's economy is so vibrant the board expects it to churn out bucketloads of revenue for Queen's Park and Ottawa: $1.3 billion each year for the next five years in increased GST, PST and income tax revenues. That is, on top of $29.3 billion the two governments will take in this year from Toronto alone.

    Where the city gets hurt is that all Ontario municipalities are forced to pick up a portion of the costs of social services and housing, something alien to all other provinces. Big city Toronto happens to have a disproportionate share of social service recipients.

    In addition, the province forces Toronto to deliver many services but doesn't pay the real costs of providing the services — leaving Toronto with an annual shortfall approaching $100 million.

    And finally, the crushing burden of big city police and transit service is too weighty to be carried by property taxpayers alone.

    The conference board pegs the city's combined capital and operating deficit at $1.1 billon, and says Toronto is dangerously "underfunded and overly reliant on debt and property tax growth."


    The figure is huge, but it is not too difficult to digest. Consider the symmetrical happenstance of the following:

    The annual increase in federal and provincial revenues generated in Toronto is expected to be more than $1.3 billion a year over the next five years. This means the annual growth alone on the cash flow out of the city is well in excess of the city's annual shortfall.

    "Consider that $11 billion in taxes leaves Toronto every year that we don't get back in programs and services. It would only take about 10 per cent of that money " to solve the fiscal deficit, Miller said.

    If the feds and the province sent the city a percentage point of the money generated in Toronto from the 7 per cent GST and the 8 per cent PST, the haul would be about $1 billion.


    If the province followed the advice of many studies and took the costs of housing and social services off the property tax bill, Toronto would be halfway toward closing the gap.

    Those are some of the options Miller floated yesterday. Without a share of income and sales tax and/or the province taking back the costs of housing and welfare, Toronto is sunk.

    By floating a five-year period to fix the problem, Miller is admitting it will probably take longer. There is no promise to do any of this (in fact, Premier Dalton McGuinty has said no to a share of income and sales tax) and the city could survive a few more years in the current fiscal straitjacket.

    The approach is reasonable. But does it carry enough of a sense of urgency? No.

    The mayor likes to say that the premier gets it, the PM gets it, John Godfrey gets it, the people get it.

    Well, the people don't get it.

    You probably do. And you. But most of us tune out. It's just another squeaky wheel, we think. The ruling class will solve it before the whole city falls apart.

    That's Miller's Achilles heel: public apathy, the sense that the city has always managed to manage its decline, using duct tape and bandages.

    Miller says he was elected to provide services, not cut them. And he's right.

    Unfortunately, people being people, they usually check to see blood before they take an injury seriously. And Toronto is injured, hemorrhaging internally.

    What yesterday's report is shouting out to anyone who wants to listen is that the patient is deathly sick.

    http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=969483202845

  15. #15
    Cyburbian andreplanner's avatar
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    There are quite a few problems plain and simple. It's all related to taxes.

    First of all Finance Minister Greg Sorbara was asked in a scrum on Wednesday (or Thurs?) if he'll allow for Toronto to have it's own tax base in reaction to what Mayor Miller stated. He said no. When asked why not, he paused for a moment and basically said in a round about way it wasn't in the cards.

    Second of all, local powers are not in the Canadian Constitution. As Warren Magnusson stated, or more like reiterated, in the most recent IPAC journal (Spring 2005), municipalities have been begging for a seat when it comes to national issues. Finally their voice has been heard though as PM Paul Martin recently stated that there will be a greate voice for municipalities in the next national forum, probably the Premier's Conference, which won't be for another 2-3 years - barring an election anytime soon.

    Third of all, related to what Tranplanner or Official Planner stated about commercial tax bases. Commercial property taxes are collected whether they rent/lease office space or if someone rents an apartment building. Classic Bid/rent model weighs into the costs when it comes to proximity to transportation but also the high tax base is part of the rent. Of course businesses won't get a break because they don't deserve one. Renters in apartment buildings do get a break if they cannot pay for full rent with subsidies or supplements.

    There's always been a push for lower rents and OP basically hit the nail on the head with his numbers. I don't know if better transportation initiatives will be the answer but I will tell you this much. If those numbers are true and the new transit corridor along Highway 7 in York Region is successful, guaranteed businesses will move north in a heartbeat. High property taxes and an incomplete subway line are partially the reasons why the Sheppard Subway is the pink elephant. I doubt Toronto will ever get to the point of another Detroit or Buffalo but it sure may look like it.

  16. #16
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Detroit lost nearly all of its retail and office base due to high taxes. Besides the subway and the CN tower, I don't see much physically (size, location) or socially (multi-ethnic and all the cultural benefits and problems) different between Detroit and Toronto. GTA just seems to lag slightly behind Metro Detroit and but it is also growing a lot faster, so the fall may be a lot harder. When is Toronto getting its casinos?

  17. #17
    Cyburbian AubieTurtle's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner
    Detroit lost nearly all of its retail and office base due to high taxes. Besides the subway and the CN tower, I don't see much physically (size, location) or socially (multi-ethnic and all the cultural benefits and problems) different between Detroit and Toronto. GTA just seems to lag slightly behind Metro Detroit and but it is also growing a lot faster, so the fall may be a lot harder. When is Toronto getting its casinos?
    Are you saying that if Detroit had only kept taxes low that it would have bucked the nationwide trend of suburbanization? While taxes are certainly a piece of the puzzle, I don't think you can blame it alone for Detroit's problems.
    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - H.L. Mencken

  18. #18
    Cyburbian Rumpy Tunanator's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner
    Detroit lost nearly all of its retail and office base due to high taxes. Besides the subway and the CN tower, I don't see much physically (size, location) or socially (multi-ethnic and all the cultural benefits and problems) different between Detroit and Toronto. GTA just seems to lag slightly behind Metro Detroit and but it is also growing a lot faster, so the fall may be a lot harder. When is Toronto getting its casinos?
    Are you saying casinos are the cure all to economic decline?
    A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."


    Neil McCauley (Robert DeNiro): Heat 1995

  19. #19
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner
    Detroit lost nearly all of its retail and office base due to high taxes. Besides the subway and the CN tower, I don't see much physically (size, location) or socially (multi-ethnic and all the cultural benefits and problems) different between Detroit and Toronto. GTA just seems to lag slightly behind Metro Detroit and but it is also growing a lot faster, so the fall may be a lot harder. When is Toronto getting its casinos?
    One of the big differences is that, IIRC, no Federal judge has ever ordered Toronto to forcibly 'desegregate' its public/government schools. MANY Detroiters did not want their kids to be bussed across the city for school and opted instead to move to suburban areas where they could still walk to neighborhood schools. That had a truly devastating effect on the City of Detroit.

    Mike

  20. #20
    Oh please, can we not have another Canada/US race relations comparison discussion. Apples and oranges.

  21. #21
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Taxes and decline? no but its drop would not have been as severe. the average Detroit property pays 80 mills as opposed to most suburbs pay between 40-50 mills for similar and in some cases better services. Detroit also has an income tax of 2.5 percent for residents and 1.25 percent for non-residents who work in the city. These are major dis-incentives to locate in the city for both business and residents. I think people have a big disconnect with Detroit proper and Detroit as a region. Sure, the manufacturing shift has hurt the Detroit region, but the region is still growing. If you look at the urban boundaries, Ann Arbor and Detroit are part of the same urban blob. There are over 5 million living in the region. These folks are working in edge cities everywhere that did not exist 25 years ago. There are many suburbs in the Detroit region that are experiencing termondous growth. These include places such as Hamtramck and Dearborn which are essentially surrounded by the city proper and share many of the same characteristics of the City proper but the taxes.

    In terms of casinos as a cure, I was being slightly sarcastic as we all know what a fine job casinos have done to save cities such as Atlantic City, Gary Indiana, and Detroit. I'm sure you can find places where casinos have helped but in most cases they just suck money out of the local economy and bloat government.

    As someone who personally lived through busing in the 70's as a child, I saw and know what people were thinking. No one was thinking like a planner... golly gee whiz, lets live where the kids can walk to school... most moved to suburbs where bussing was a necssity as there were no neighborhood schools. They were thinking the black man is coming we have to leave. I heard it again and again, and went from living in a mostly white neighborhood to a mostly black one in only a few years. Bussing was used as an excuse, Coleman Young was used as an excuse, Judge Fiekens was used as an excuse. The fact of the matter is most white people were acting pretty dammed racist when it comes down to it.

    What I find most amusing is how people think that what happened to Detroit can't happen anywhere else. When I point out it appears by the article that that is precisely one of the major reasons for Detroit's decline people want to bury their heads in the sand instead of learn from it.

    The best thing that Detroit can do now is to lower taxes. The income taxes are currently being lowered over ten years. This should help a bit, but much more needs to be done (preperty taxes) to bring it to pairity. It is not an even playing field between a city and its suburbs.

    Back to the topic I adressed in the orginal post. What can Toronto learn from other cities so that it does not repeat their mistakes? Its obvious it is facing a huge problem, one that is much bigger than Detroit faces.

  22. #22
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner
    The best thing that Detroit can do now is to lower taxes. The income taxes are currently being lowered over ten years. This should help a bit, but much more needs to be done (preperty taxes) to bring it to pairity. It is not an even playing field between a city and its suburbs.

    Back to the topic I adressed in the orginal post. What can Toronto learn from other cities so that it does not repeat their mistakes? Its obvious it is facing a huge problem, one that is much bigger than Detroit faces.
    What would happen if Ontario would force another Toronto city-suburb amalgamation?

    Also, with the City of Detroit's current level of services and high tax rates, where does all of that money go (or is it simply a severe tax base vs service needs imbalance)?

    Further, even though this is a dreamland (or maybe a nightmareland) thought, how would local politics, et al, change if the State of Michigan could force a wide Detroit area city-suburb amalgamation?

    Mike

  23. #23
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920
    What would happen if Ontario would force another Toronto city-suburb amalgamation?

    Also, with the City of Detroit's current level of services and high tax rates, where does all of that money go (or is it simply a severe tax base vs service needs imbalance)?

    Further, even though this is a dreamland (or maybe a nightmareland) thought, how would local politics, et al, change if the State of Michigan could force a wide Detroit area city-suburb amalgamation?

    Mike
    I would hate to see what an amalgamation would cobble together, would it envelope Hamilton? Lake Simcoe? That would not really solve the problem of geographic dispersion and may make an even larger region less competetive. I would suggest a lowering of taxes to retain businesses and the spin-offs from such would be in order here.

    Detroit's problems have been well documented, your response seemed to indicate that you knew something about these conditions. The money goes to support a city thast is roughly double the size of what is needed. Current estimates of city size peg it at about 950k or in some cases lower. At one time the city was pushing 2 million. It still has all of them sewers, waterlines, light poles, parks, and museums to support from when it was a much larger place. There is only so many lights you can turn off. The City also supplies water to an area of about 6 million, so you can't very well turn off watermains or re route them as they service communities immediately outside the border.

    Amalgamation in Michigan? Can't happen. Local govt is too strong. Remember that some of the suburbs abutting Detroit are still considered townships (Redford, Royal Oak), if those can't be amalgamated, then what are the chances of merging cities or everything into a county.

    As mentioned by someone earlier, amalgamation is like race, there are just some things you cannot compare between Canada and the States. That is why I was focusing my discussion on Toronto's billion dollar shortfall (Detroit for as screwed up of a city as it is has always up to next year found a way to balance its budget, and that is why I mentioned earlier that Toronto faces financial problems that seem inconcievable even by Detroit standards). My biggest concern here is that I don't want to see Toronto empty out (I know the subway mantra) and if there is a fix in there that maybe I can learn something from it.

  24. #24
    Cyburbian jresta's avatar
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    I haven't been to Detroit but i have been to Toronto and it reminded me a lot more of Chicago than what i've heard and read about Detroit. I think more typically when a region's health revolves around one industry (or a handful of related industries) that region crashes hard.
    Indeed you can usually tell when the concepts of democracy and citizenship are weakening. There is an increase in the role of charity and in the worship of volunteerism. These represent the élite citizen's imitation of noblesse oblige; that is, of pretending to be aristocrats or oligarchs, as opposed to being citizens.

  25. #25
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner
    As mentioned by someone earlier, amalgamation is like race, there are just some things you cannot compare between Canada and the States. That is why I was focusing my discussion on Toronto's billion dollar shortfall (Detroit for as screwed up of a city as it is has always up to next year found a way to balance its budget, and that is why I mentioned earlier that Toronto faces financial problems that seem inconcievable even by Detroit standards). My biggest concern here is that I don't want to see Toronto empty out (I know the subway mantra) and if there is a fix in there that maybe I can learn something from it.
    I dont see Toronto emptying out at all. This is one of the condo boom capitals of North America, we've seen some businesses leave but overall its stayed pretty even. The largest employers would be the banks and they arent going anywhere.

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