Urban planning community | #theplannerlife

+ Reply to thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 52

Thread: suburbia and sprawl positive points

  1. #1
    Cyburbian circusoflife's avatar
    Registered
    May 2005
    Location
    Seattle, WA, USA
    Posts
    127

    suburbia and sprawl positive points

    If a similar thread has been hashed out...please close and lead the blind.

    I frequently think about the negatives of sprawl and suburban lifestyle. What about the positives?

    One positive that always comes to mind is having garages/large homes which can be helpful in fuelling the enterpreneurial spirit by giving space to start a new business. And also space to think of new ideas.

    Of course everything has a positive and negative - sprawl can also crush the spirit by being less amenable to smaller businesses in some instances (Big box stores taking over).

    Others?

  2. #2
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Southern Antarctica
    Posts
    1,003
    Noisy neighbors are less of a problem, and in turn, you have more freedom to make noise yourself, than compared to urban apartment living.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2001
    Location
    South Milwaukee
    Posts
    8,935
    Now for the "fatalist" take, in case study form:

    I have a friend that is an exec at a local, very large national, insurance company. This is the only reason I have this info:

    For many years, their HQ has been in our Metro area's downtown. When they have their annual conference, 50,000 employees from around the country attend.

    They own or lease over 2 city blocks of mid rise and high rise buildings. Most are leased by "shadow" companies and do not have the HQ's name on them anywhere, due to the sensitivity and value of the data they maintain. But if you're keyed in on this, it's easy enough to figure out which ones they are.

    Despite having off-site cold storage of their data, after 9-11 they recognized (1) that they are an obvious high profile target in an insecure second tier metro region, and (2) the value of their employees, and the concentration of their institutional knowledge in a limited geographic area. This was a concern.

    For these rasons, they began dispersing operations - and creating available redundant operations through cross-training - to a new suburban campus, still an easy drive time to downtown, but easily out of an "area of concern" from the HQ.

    So, there is definite value in this suburb, and all suburbs, for similar reasons. An attack on this country does not need to take down iconic towers and kill 1,000's of people to create an economic disaster. An attack on an key industry sector in "safe" onscure Americana can do just as much harm. Dispersing an industry sector makes attack more difficult and less likely to succeed.

  4. #4
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Southern Antarctica
    Posts
    1,003
    ^ Without a doubt, security is a good point Chet, but it would be a shame if as a result of 9-11 paranoia, we've gave up on cities and just became even more sprawl loving as a nation than we already are.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  5. #5
    Cyburbian Masswich's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Ocean to the east, land to the west
    Posts
    1,280

    Security (sort of)

    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    ^ Without a doubt, security is a good point Chet, but it would be a shame if as a result of 9-11 paranoia, we've gave up on cities and just became even more sprawl loving as a nation than we already are.
    Security was actually an explicit selling point for suburbia in the Cold War era- I saw materials about how much harder it will be for the Russkies to bomb us into the stone age if we and our industries were dispersed around the countryside.

    I think one plus is that, in theory, new construction can be less ecologically harmful than old construction. Also, it keeps nasty sprawl lovers out of the city...heehee...

  6. #6

    Registered
    May 1997
    Location
    Williston, VT
    Posts
    1,371
    I want to second the point about making noise. Karen and I both find that after a stressful meeting we need to move. So we often turn on the stereo and dance. Not being able to do so last year, while living in an apartment nearly drove us nuts! And it doesn't take that much space to have that kind of privacy. The largest lot in our little proto new-urban development - the pie-shaped corner we bought - is only .21 acres.

    I also want to say a word about self-sufficiency. Even on our small lot, Karen and I can, given the energy and the right support system (availability of compost on a community scale, a feature in which this area leads the nation), raise a lot of food. We can't, and wouldn't want, to be entirely self-sufficient, but we make a big dent in our food bill, we maintain a valuable skill set in case we have to grow more, we are healthier, and we have a sense of independence that is rooted in actual hands on activity. I also note that collectively, our little development could raise a huge amount of food if we tilled some of the 3 acres of community open space. There are amazing small gardens on roof decks and in other places in the cities, and there vast suburban tracts where no one raises a tomato, but I find a lot of value in the possibility of some significant measure of self-sufficiency. A well-designed suburb can offer that.

    I also second the point about home occupations. You can be an accountant in an apartment, but you can't very well be a metal sculptor, potter, backhoe operator, etc., etc. The guy who rents our house in Colorado does stucco. He has ample space to store all the materials, mix things up, etc., without disturbing anyone. He also has ample space to raise a lot of food to reduce his need for cash income. Urban lifestyles are very cash-intensive, and people need to have the possibility of dropping out of that lifestyle. I suppose that it can be done in the city, but it is a lot easier where you have some space.

    I know that the dominant suburban reality has many liabilities, but that does not mean that the only choice is high-density development. We could design a world in which there is a full range of choices that still works.

  7. #7
          abrowne's avatar
    Registered
    Jan 2005
    Location
    BC
    Posts
    1,584
    Let's be clear here: affordability. For all the negatives, the rise of the suburb made possible the rise of the living conditions for the lower and middle classes. No longer were people forced to rent from an inner city tenement, ad infinitum. People were now able to own their homes, and not only that, but in general terms, escape the often oppressive city of days gone by.

    This is the number one positive, in my mind. Sure suburbs have problems in their own right but we must not lose sight of what they have accomplished in terms of living standards, life expectancy, the widespread creation of inheritable property, and the feeling of self-determination due to property ownership.

    Quote Originally posted by Lee Nellis
    I also want to say a word about self-sufficiency. Even on our small lot, Karen and I can, given the energy and the right support system (availability of compost on a community scale, a feature in which this area leads the nation), raise a lot of food. We can't, and wouldn't want, to be entirely self-sufficient, but we make a big dent in our food bill, we maintain a valuable skill set in case we have to grow more, we are healthier, and we have a sense of independence that is rooted in actual hands on activity. I also note that collectively, our little development could raise a huge amount of food if we tilled some of the 3 acres of community open space. There are amazing small gardens on roof decks and in other places in the cities, and there vast suburban tracts where no one raises a tomato, but I find a lot of value in the possibility of some significant measure of self-sufficiency. A well-designed suburb can offer that.

    I also second the point about home occupations. You can be an accountant in an apartment, but you can't very well be a metal sculptor, potter, backhoe operator, etc., etc. The guy who rents our house in Colorado does stucco. He has ample space to store all the materials, mix things up, etc., without disturbing anyone. He also has ample space to raise a lot of food to reduce his need for cash income. Urban lifestyles are very cash-intensive, and people need to have the possibility of dropping out of that lifestyle. I suppose that it can be done in the city, but it is a lot easier where you have some space.
    Two very excellent points, thank you. I've noticed, at least in the greater-Vancouver area, an exodus of artisans out of the city and into far flung suburbs, such as Pitt Meadows and Maple Ridge. This makes sense now. It's hard to create your own glass blowing studio in a flat downtown (and definitely illegal), but relatively inexpensive to rent out a small space in a tilt-up concrete industrial park in a suburb.

    The self sufficiency aspect is also very important... the connection to the land is vital, I believe. To see, every day, that it can sustain you (but only with work), is rather important.

    This is one of the most interesting discussions on Cyburbia in the last few weeks.

  8. #8
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
    Registered
    Dec 2001
    Location
    West Valley, AZ
    Posts
    3,895
    abrowne summed up some great points.

    The suburbs, low-density development also made it possible and practical for everyone to own a car and use it for daily needs (in the US). ...and vice-versa.

    In the 1940s-50s the health benefits from the clean air of the country was an important benefit of suburban living.


    Edit to elaborate on below comments: Suburbia is practical now, even if artifically, and does accurately reflect our value of city vs. suburban property. It will become infeasable for the average middle class family or citizen to own a typical suburban home or commute the distances we do once energy prices are brought up to a higher level.

    Illusion of cheap living or not, the suburbs are providing this and will be taken advantage of until the illusion disappears.
    Last edited by boiker; 01 Jun 2005 at 4:00 PM.
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  9. #9
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
    Registered
    May 2003
    Location
    Staff meeting
    Posts
    10,624
    Quote Originally posted by abrowne
    Let's be clear here: affordability. For all the negatives, the rise of the suburb made possible the rise of the living conditions for the lower and middle classes
    Actually, I think you are giving the form a little too much credit. The affordability was more a result of real estate market mechanisms (widely available 30-year FHA mortgages, pent up demand due to WWII and the Depression, assembly-line style building construction techniques, standardized components, a vast middle class ready to spend, etc.) and national infrastructure development (interstates, limited access roads). These are the elements, among others, that created the affordabiltiy of suburbia for the middle and upper-lower income brackets.

    Remember, there has been "suburbia" since the beginning of North American real estate development, but it wasn't until the mid-20th century that the convergence of good financing mechansims and industrial-scaled land development appeared.

    Really, the one major positive associated with late 20th century suburbanization would be the vast "wealth creation" spread across a greater spectrum of North American society.

    ...It's hard to create your own glass blowing studio in a flat downtown (and definitely illegal), but relatively inexpensive to rent out a small space in a tilt-up concrete industrial park in a suburb.
    But it would be equally inexpensive to rent an industrial space in a dodgy city neighborhood and potentially not have to have a car to get to work, as would be more likely in a typical suburb.
    Last edited by mendelman; 01 Jun 2005 at 3:02 PM.
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    Every day is today. Yesterday is a myth and tomorrow an illusion.

  10. #10
    General comments for me personally. (Burbs are not for everyone, but they are for me)

    (1) Big backyards.

    (2) First time home-owner who can actually afford a single detached dwelling.

    (3) The greenery and proximity of greenery.

    (4) Transit - yes transit in the burbs - it's quicker by about 5 to 10 minutes to take the express bus than to take the car during rush hour.

    (5) Home Depot within 3 minute drive.

    (6) Less noise.

    (7) Home Depot within 3 minute drive.

    (7) More privacy.

    (8) Home Depot within 3 minute drive.

    (10) Did I mention Home Depot?

  11. #11
          abrowne's avatar
    Registered
    Jan 2005
    Location
    BC
    Posts
    1,584
    mendelman Subsidized mortgages would have been available to those buying in the inner city as well as the 'burbs, non? So this is moot. I look at it this way. The city is a far more intensive urban form as compared to the suburbs, and as a result will always be more expensive. The inner city is NOT an affordable form for those looking to buy a home. Why buy? People were tired of renting, and thought, "Hey, maybe after all this rent money we should have something to show for it." Suburbia was affordable for more reasons than simple loan financing, it was also affordable because of the principles of supply and demand. If you have a point source, such as a city centre, the availability of land increases as you steadily move away from that point (think concentric circles).

    Yes, its true that suburbs began as more expensive than city living (rennaissance-era Florence, for example), but it was only a matter of time before the wide availability of land reversed this status.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Southern Antarctica
    Posts
    1,003
    Quote Originally posted by abrowne
    mendelman Subsidized mortgages would have been available to those buying in the inner city as well as the 'burbs, non? So this is moot. I look at it this way. The city is a far more intensive urban form as compared to the suburbs, and as a result will always be more expensive. The inner city is NOT an affordable form for those looking to buy a home. Why buy? People were tired of renting, and thought, "Hey, maybe after all this rent money we should have something to show for it." Suburbia was affordable for more reasons than simple loan financing, it was also affordable because of the principles of supply and demand. If you have a point source, such as a city centre, the availability of land increases as you steadily move away from that point (think concentric circles).

    Yes, its true that suburbs began as more expensive than city living (rennaissance-era Florence, for example), but it was only a matter of time before the wide availability of land reversed this status.
    abrowne, the FHA loans mendelman was referring to were available on "new construction", which invariably meant in a suburban area rather than in a preexisting urban neighborhood. The interstate highway system further subsidized this.

    Although it's true in America, living in the suburbs has been cheaper, people have done so on the taxpaying backs of urban residents. The cost of building and maintaining new infrastructure like phone, electricity, plumbing/sewers, schools and especially roads is all cheaper in a dense area because there is less piping needed between dwellings. Along with cheap oil, America has punished those who live in the city for decades, while creating the illusion that the suburbs offer a less costly way of life. If renting is the problem, you can always buy a rowhouse or a condo. It may be more expensive on a square footage basis right now, but if America kept things on a level playing field with respect to the true costs of energy and infrastructure, IMO the gap between suburban and urban housing would decrease significantly.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  13. #13

    Registered
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Solano County, California
    Posts
    6,468
    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    abrowne, the FHA loans mendelman was referring to were available on "new construction", which invariably meant in a suburban area rather than in a preexisting urban neighborhood. The interstate highway system further subsidized this.

    Although it's true in America, living in the suburbs has been cheaper, people have done so on the taxpaying backs of urban residents. The cost of building and maintaining new infrastructure like phone, electricity, plumbing/sewers, schools and especially roads is all cheaper in a dense area because there is less piping needed between dwellings. Along with cheap oil, America has punished those who live in the city for decades, while creating the illusion that the suburbs offer a less costly way of life. If renting is the problem, you can always buy a rowhouse or a condo. It may be more expensive on a square footage basis right now, but if America kept things on a level playing field with respect to the true costs of energy and infrastructure, IMO the gap between suburban and urban housing would decrease significantly.

    Throw in the reluctance-especially postwar-of PRIVATE mortgage firms to fund investment in central city neighborhoods. That's ignoring the racial and class redlining, as well.

  14. #14
    Cyburbian circusoflife's avatar
    Registered
    May 2005
    Location
    Seattle, WA, USA
    Posts
    127
    Quote Originally posted by Plan Man
    General comments for me personally. (Burbs are not for everyone, but they are for me)

    (5) Home Depot within 3 minute drive.

    (6) Less noise.

    (7) Home Depot within 3 minute drive.

    (7) More privacy.

    (8) Home Depot within 3 minute drive.

    (10) Did I mention Home Depot?
    But you wouldn't need home depot if you lived in a condo/townhome. A modest sized Ace Hardware would be enough!

  15. #15

    Registered
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Solano County, California
    Posts
    6,468
    Quote Originally posted by circusoflife
    But you wouldn't need home depot if you lived in a condo/townhome. A modest sized Ace Hardware would be enough!
    But where would I put my home forge/portable glass furnace in a townhouse?

  16. #16
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
    Registered
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Land of Confusion
    Posts
    3,872
    Lower taxes are another advantage of suburbia that should not be overlooked. I think this is a major factor that fuels sprawl and disinvestment in established urban areas.

  17. #17

    Registered
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Arlington, Va.
    Posts
    180
    Some will think me facetious but race relations has been a positive development of sprawl. Don't like the racial composition of your neighborhood? No problem, move farther out from the city center. Homes are bigger and more modern there anyway. A closely related trend is the globalized economy, which has produced a significant number of people who, in order to advance their career, migrate from metro area to metro area, almost always settling in suburban/exurban areas. (See today's New York Times for a good example http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/01/na...TA-FINAL.html?

    Many will buy a sprawl home in the expectation that they will move up, and further out, a few years later, or else in the expectation that they will move to another similar subdivision in another part of the country. This is what economists are talking about when they refer to America's flexible labor markets.

    Anyway, I think that it is no coincidence that America has had relatively few major race riots since the 1960s in the age of sprawl (I know, someone will list more recent race riots, like Los Angeles after Rodney King, etc., but I think that my observation stands). This is despite the fact that America is much, much more racially and ethnically diverse now than in the 1960s. Since there is little sense of place left in much of the country, there is less reason to be upset about racial issues. (Of course, I am making many oversimplifications and overgeneralizations here, and my comments aren't necessarily either anti- or pro- immigration, so please don't misinterpret me.)

  18. #18

    Registered
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Solano County, California
    Posts
    6,468
    Quote Originally posted by Kovanovich
    Some will think me facetious but race relations has been a positive development of sprawl. Don't like the racial composition of your neighborhood? No problem, move farther out from the city center. Homes are bigger and more modern there anyway. A closely related trend is the globalized economy, which has produced a significant number of people who, in order to advance their career, migrate from metro area to metro area, almost always settling in suburban/exurban areas. (See today's New York Times for a good example http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/01/na...TA-FINAL.html?

    Many will buy a sprawl home in the expectation that they will move up, and further out, a few years later, or else in the expectation that they will move to another similar subdivision in another part of the country. This is what economists are talking about when they refer to America's flexible labor markets.

    Anyway, I think that it is no coincidence that America has had relatively few major race riots since the 1960s in the age of sprawl (I know, someone will list more recent race riots, like Los Angeles after Rodney King, etc., but I think that my observation stands). This is despite the fact that America is much, much more racially and ethnically diverse now than in the 1960s. Since there is little sense of place left in much of the country, there is less reason to be upset about racial issues. (Of course, I am making many oversimplifications and overgeneralizations here, and my comments aren't necessarily either anti- or pro- immigration, so please don't misinterpret me.)
    I think you make some good points.

    Of course, spatial segregation also means that if the eternal growth machine ever sputters to a halt, for whatever reason (Hubbert Peak, debt bomb, inability to compete with China/Japan/India/Europe), there is very little in common among Americans (hence my earlier post) to hold us together-and the petty suspicions and group loyalties will return.

  19. #19
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
    Registered
    May 2005
    Location
    The Fox Valley
    Posts
    5,275
    Blog entries
    1
    Quote Originally posted by circusoflife
    But you wouldn't need home depot if you lived in a condo/townhome. A modest sized Ace Hardware would be enough!
    While Ace Hardwares are nice and good for some common items, it is never a guarantee that they have exactly what you're looking for, even small parts. The big box home centers do have a lot more selection and are able to sell large items like lumber and patio furniture.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  20. #20
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
    Registered
    Dec 2001
    Location
    West Valley, AZ
    Posts
    3,895
    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    While Ace Hardwares are nice and good for some common items, it is never a guarantee that they have exactly what you're looking for, even small parts. The big box home centers do have a lot more selection and are able to sell large items like lumber and patio furniture.
    I've actually found it quite the opposite. My local ace had far more choices regarding kitchen plumbing stuff (valves, seals, connectors, etc.. not faucets) than my big box.
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  21. #21

    Registered
    May 1997
    Location
    Williston, VT
    Posts
    1,371
    I might also add that a lot of what you buy at Home Despot is sometimes poorly made. I do go there, reluctantly, because of the price differential on select items (stainless steel switchplates are $3 less each), but I buy most of what we need at the local Ace or specialty (paint, carpet) stores.

    All of what is said about financial institutions and government policy is true, but I think the impact of these factors is often overstated. [Most] Americans love having the space. Everyone who could afford it has always sought it. The psychology of why we do that is a fascinating, albeit inconclusive, study (as a starting point, I highly recommend Slotkin's book, Gunfighter Nation), but for those who spend a lot time thinking about the various subsidies to suburbanization, I propose that they are symptoms, not causes.

  22. #22
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
    Registered
    May 2003
    Location
    Staff meeting
    Posts
    10,624
    Quote Originally posted by Lee Nellis
    All of what is said about financial institutions and government policy is true, but I think the impact of these factors is often overstated. [Most] Americans love having the space. Everyone who could afford it has always sought it. The psychology of why we do that is a fascinating, albeit inconclusive, study (as a starting point, I highly recommend Slotkin's book, Gunfighter Nation), but for those who spend a lot time thinking about the various subsidies to suburbanization, I propose that they are symptoms, not causes.
    I agree, somewhat.

    The creation and accessibility of large scale "suburbanization" was caused by the mechanisms created by the financing industry and government policies, but the creation of the mechanisms and policies was a symptom of our cultural desire to want more "space".

    I do not deny that North Americans, on average, desire the typical suburban sized lots, but the access to them was made more widely available, throughout the economic strata, because lending practices were loosened due to government backed mortgages and creation of Fannie Mae, the introduction of industrial scaled construction methods, and large scale investment in infrastructure creation and maintainence (roads, sewers, utilities, etc.)

    Essentially, affordable large(r) lot development (8,000sqft+ lots) was the product of certian government policies and more liberal lending practices (among other factors). Therefore, these policies/practices made possible the wider realizaition of our cultural desires for the large(r) lots .
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    Every day is today. Yesterday is a myth and tomorrow an illusion.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller
    Lower taxes are another advantage of suburbia that should not be overlooked. I think this is a major factor that fuels sprawl and disinvestment in established urban areas.
    Taxes are only lower because urban areas provide services that suburbanites use but don't pay for. Whereas I pay for all city services, I also subsidize the county police force (which does not patrol the city); the county parks (which are not within walking distance); the county street department (which doesn't pave my streets); the county plan commission (which is constantly being sued and losing, therefore requiring money for settlements that comes from city pockets although we have our own plan commission); county engineer and on and on -- all of which provide no service to city dwellers. We're just a big sponge being squeezed for every last drop.
    Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
    Abraham Lincoln

  24. #24
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
    Registered
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Samsara
    Posts
    5,077
    1 Major point that has been missed. When you move to the suburbs - FOR THE MOST PART - you leave the knuckleheads that vandalize, rape, rob, shoot up, and get in fights behind. Sorry, but its true. I love the older neighborhoods, but I couldn't stand the neighbors. The rule set was different there: Don't get anything nice and keep it outside because a thug who hates life will screw it up. Having once been a poor single father living in the transition zone between the hood and the lower middle class neighborhoods I can tell you the hassle of putting up with the unwashed was my number one beef. I loved seeing 13 year olds screwing behind my apartment. I loved watching the toddlers toddle unsupervised in the parking area. I loved coming home to find coolaid covering my car, patio set and front door. I loved watching the knuckleheads next door get drunk, loud and physical at 4:00 am. I loved the occasional police raid of the neighboring duplex. I liked the hit and runs on my POS car. It was in great shape when I moved there. But the knuckleheads hit it twice.

    Simply put: the poor suck and they can't afford a home in the suburbs, so I moved there. **** 'em!

    Now the Urbanistas can come bash me and tell me how much worse the self-involved teenagers of sterile suburbia are in comparison. Yeah, right.
    el Guapo is a former 20 year +/- urban planner (just like you) who thought becoming an attorney was a good life choice.

  25. #25
    Cyburbian mike gurnee's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 1998
    Location
    Greensburg, Kansas
    Posts
    3,061
    How many of us are willing to admit that elGuapo is right? Become an urban pioneer, restore an older house within walking distance of...nothing. Make sure you have a standing discount for windshield replacement and paint to cover the grafitti.

    On a more positive note, don't forget the various lifestyle stages that many of us share. Single or newly-weds: more urban, seeking to be entertained; young family: seeking a safe neighborhood, decent schools, and a yard; empty nesters: hold on to the suburban house until you realize it is rediculous to maintain a four bed house and 1/4 acre yard; retirement: still seeking safe and secure environment (perhaps urban). No one environment works for all, and at all lifestyle stages.

    When visiting our son in Chicago last year, I noted that there is a very distinct segregation in his hood. Nearly everyone within walking distance was the same. I asked if he had ever seen anyone over 40 years old, and he said that there might be one or two in the area.

+ Reply to thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 ... LastLast

More at Cyburbia

  1. Feeling Positive About Currency
    Friday Afternoon Club
    Replies: 31
    Last post: 24 Oct 2008, 2:52 PM
  2. Positive anecdotes from downtown businesses?
    Economic and Community Development
    Replies: 0
    Last post: 08 Jun 2008, 7:56 PM
  3. Political Points to Ponder
    Friday Afternoon Club
    Replies: 18
    Last post: 08 May 2006, 4:38 PM
  4. Positive Addictions
    Friday Afternoon Club
    Replies: 18
    Last post: 13 Dec 2004, 10:44 PM
  5. Making motions in the positive
    Land Use and Zoning
    Replies: 19
    Last post: 13 Mar 2003, 9:09 PM