Urban planning community

+ Reply to thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 40

Thread: Examples of recent residential development in Brisbane, Australia (pics included)

  1. #1
    Cyburbian ABS's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    104

    Examples of recent residential development in Brisbane, Australia (pics included)







    Here are some examples of recent residential development around Brisbane, Australia. Just wondering what you overseas planners think about the urban environment in our new estates down here in Australia.
    Last edited by ABS; 11 Jun 2005 at 11:45 AM.

  2. #2
          quink's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    52
    I love how you call this "urban". Personally, I'm in an area where new estates looking like that have been popping up for the last ten years. Really tragic, we used to be able to see a Koala at least once a week just two years ago, but now it's zilch. Plus, in some areas of Brisbane, you can forget "walking to the shops". The nearest shop is 5 kms away, yet we're completely surrounded by suburbia.

    In 1956 Brisbane prided itself the second-biggest city (by area) in the world, after LA. Now it's Suburbia personified. And these developments have a floor ratio of well below even 0.2, killing bushlife, encouraging sprawl and suburban mindset. These few pics show exactly what's ugly about Brisbane. Sorry, but I'm angry

  3. #3
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2003
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    713
    quink, you have reason to be angry. Your assessment's completely plausible; those photographs show a pattern of development that is so crappy it shouldn't be allowed anywhere. Maybe if we come to our senses we'll pass zoning laws that make sense; then there won't be any more $hit like this.

  4. #4
    Cyburbian ABS's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    104
    quink your allowed to be angry, the development is rather shitty. In my opinion developer covenants should not be allowed to enforce minimum floor area. It encourages McMansionism. Sadly these photos are and example of average practice.

    In a few days time I'm going to take some pictures of Sanctuary Pocket at Forest Lake to show best practice in low density suburban development.

  5. #5
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Southern Antarctica
    Posts
    1,001
    ...And people wonder where all their tax dollars go.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  6. #6
    Cyburbian ABS's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    104
    The council doesn't pay for anything in the developments. The developer pays for all needed infrastructure and the cost is passed off to the land buyers in the selling price. That's why land in these developments sells for around AU$200,000 to AU$300,000.

  7. #7
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Southern Antarctica
    Posts
    1,001
    Quote Originally posted by ABS
    The council doesn't pay for anytihng in the developments. The developer pays for all needed infrastructure and the cost is passed off to the land buyers in the selling price. That's why land in these developments sells for around AU$200,000 to AU$300,000.
    Oh. I don't know about Australia, but I don't think that's the way it usually works in the U.S. Would the developer even pay for new schools?
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  8. #8
    Cyburbian natski's avatar
    Registered
    Jun 2005
    Location
    In my own little bubble
    Posts
    2,561
    Well im not sure how it works in Brisbane, but in Sydney, developers are required to pay certain contributions to the Local Council, but this is not used for schools, just for open space and recreation and community facilities- such as community halls etc.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian ABS's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    104
    Public schools are partially paid for by developer contributions and the balance paid by the state government. Private schools are partially funded by federal government and the balance through school fees and private investment. One of the reasons why land in Australian capital cities is so expensive is that developers are now required to virtually pay the full cost of infrastructure for the development, which is then passed onto land buyers.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian chukky's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Brisbane, Queensland
    Posts
    363
    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    Oh. I don't know about Australia, but I don't think that's the way it usually works in the U.S. Would the developer even pay for new schools?
    I'm pretty sure they do.. at least for things like the buildings, facilities and leave the education department to do set up costs... hiring the teachers, etc etc. However, its not uncommon for these places to have private schools as well as state, and they tend to be completely set up as private institutions by the developer... but even then the government kicks in for each student... I believe the figure is the equivalent of what it would cost the education department to school a student, but is adjusted slightly according to how wealthy an area the school is in.

    _________________________________

    My pet rant is those absurd things at intersections... the coloured bits of stencilled concrete.... WHAT PURPOSE CAN THEY POSSIBLY SERVE? Are they there simply to remind you that you are in the suburbs? And most irritatingly they are being retro-fitted in and around the older inner suburbs...! argh.

    _____________________________________

    ABS: Are the master-planned communities at Springfield Lakes and Forest Lake any better really then standard tract development? I've never been down that way, but from what I've heard/read they are simply giant cul-de-sac estates with a lake in the middle right? ie, car dependant, single family, single price range blobs with every adult male commuting out and all the women staying home with the kids? PLEASE PLEASE tell me I'm wrong.

    c.

  11. #11

    Registered
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Solano County, California
    Posts
    6,468
    I would agree with most of the comments above, but I would remark on one positive thing: one place where I disagree with ablarc is assessment of blame. I blame (among others) the engineers.

    From the photos, it appears that Australian engineers are not insanely addicted to vast swathes of pavement. These streets appear to be 1/3 less in width than the typical baking hot California monstrosities. I can hear the fire people now: "How would The Grumman (the gigantic fire engine beloved of our firefiughters) drive down these streets?" Or: But my Cadillac Escalade will have to slow down driving down these streets!

    Give me a residential street where cars need to slow down to pass each other!!!

  12. #12
    Cyburbian ABS's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    104
    Where abouts in brisbane are you from chukky? I'm from the inner south near Garden City.

    To answer your question, the red and yellow painted roadsways within inner city areas delineates a transition into local traffic areas where through traffic is discouraged.

    There are some planning mistakes that have been made in master planned estates such as Forest Lake and Springfield Lakes but generally they are planned to higher standard than ad-hoc residential development in areas such as Kuraby and Parkinson. I wouldn't say that places such as Forest Lake are full of stay-at-home mum's anymore. With the increasing cost of housing and changes to the structure of society you'll find there are many single parent families or double income no kids and double income lots of kids families. At Forest Lake and Springfield Lakes there are a range of different house sizes and block sizes that range from 240m2 up to around 800m2. Generally you'll find facilites in master planned estates, while still too segregated, are more integrated into the community than in some existing residential areas. Having larger scale development does provide more cpaital to development community facilities and contribute social capital. However, it is still low density sprawl, just slightly better planned sprawl.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    BKM in new estates the roads have to be narrower to act as pshycological traffic calming and to reduce runoff issues from impervious surfaces. Within the Brisbane City Council juristiction these are the road width regulations:

    5.5m Wide Carriageway (14m wide road reserve) - Local streets servicing up to 75 dwellings.
    7.5m Wide Carriageway (16m wide road reserve) - Local collector streets from 75 - 300 dwellings.
    11m Wide Carriageway (19.5m wide road reserve) - Neighbourhood access roads.
    2x6m Wide Carriageway (24m wide road reserve) - Major roads generally with 2 - 4 traffic lanes and a grassed verge down the central median.
    2x9m Wide Carriageway (30m wide road reserve) - major roads generally with 4 - 6 traffic lanes and a grassed verge down the central median.

  13. #13
    Cyburbian natski's avatar
    Registered
    Jun 2005
    Location
    In my own little bubble
    Posts
    2,561
    Narrow street widths are common in most (if not all) masterplanned developments i have seen.

    Im guess the fact that the developer has to pay for road construction, and that more land means more houses is the reason.

    In terms of practicallitiy it does not work- and dont get me started about where visitors can park!!

  14. #14
    Cyburbian ABS's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    104
    In theory 5.5m wide carriageways allow for one lane of moving traffic and one lane of parked cars. In practice it doesn't work properly. Some councils require parking for 1 in 4 dwellings inside indented parking bays to avoid constriction of moving traffic. In most instances councils require that for every off street enclosed parking space, such as carports and garages, there must be an off street space in the driveway. For example if the house has a double garage the driveway must be able to accomodate two cars without impeding pedestrian movement on the verge.

  15. #15

    Registered
    Aug 2004
    Location
    lavington, British Columbia
    Posts
    26
    yuk, talk about urban sprawl at it's best.

    Why do our cities insist on this kind of development? Why?

  16. #16
    Cyburbian ABS's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    104
    People percieve that they have a need for low density suburban development. It doesn't make it so, but we do live in a free market based economy with somewhat limited regulation. Personally I'm not a fan of low density sprawl. It's a place where we live, but it doesn't neccessarily make it a good use for the landscape. I myself live in the suburbs and I don't own a car. When I want to travel somewhere I either walk or catch a bus or train. I'm privileged to live in a suburb with good access to high frequency public transport.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian chukky's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Brisbane, Queensland
    Posts
    363
    Quote Originally posted by ABS
    I'm privileged to live in a suburb with good access to high frequency public transport.
    I'm on the Ashgrove/The Gap border, in the west. Garden City/Mt. Gravatt is right on the freeway/South East busway isnt it? I've heard lots of good things of suburbs around Holland Park etc., and considered a move down there... but im at UQ St Lucia so getting across town would be painful.

    And its good to hear about the Forest Lake development.... just realised how muxh bias I've taken on board ... around here people use Forest Lake as a sort of joke/ symbol of the death of society as we know it/ personification of all evil/ Kath&Kimville

  18. #18
    Cyburbian ABS's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    104
    Yeah, Garden City is in the approx 12km south east from the CBD. Western snobbery may joke about the southside being a planning disaster, but it's not as uniformian as that. Certainly structural changes to society have removed the 'Kath & Kim' factor from the suburbs. Except maybe in Logan City...

    For those who don't understand, Kath & Kim is an Australian TV comedy series based on how people percieve the suburban environment in Melbourne, Victoria. The series is based in the hypothetical suburb of Fountain Lakes where a suburban mother and daughter have weekly adventures.

  19. #19
          quink's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    52
    Quote Originally posted by ABS
    Except maybe in Logan City...
    BTW, Logan City's getting a *complete* overhaul of the buses in two weeks.
    See here .

    This estate is almost worse than McMansions. And if you're looking for far too wide roads (30 metres+ with less than 5000 vpd), go to any place along the bay, North Stradbroke (Dunwich) and Redland Bay being prime examples. Furthermore, I don't really care about the floor ratio, it's the fact that Educational, Commercial and Residential developments apparently must be as far away from each other as possible that bugs me.

    Oh, and even in Australia we know about McMansions. See Raby Bay or any other channel-estate on the Gold Coast. So many cul-de-sacs that the buses can't even serve these areas.

  20. #20
    Cyburbian ABS's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    104
    Ipswich had a public transport overhall back in April. Springfield Lakes finally recieved an adequate public transport service. I'm absolutely amazed by the service changes to Logan City, there are so many new services than they have needed for a long time.

  21. #21
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2001
    Location
    The Cheese State
    Posts
    9,920
    Quote Originally posted by jaswant_icke
    yuk, talk about urban sprawl at it's best.

    Why do our cities insist on this kind of development? Why?
    Why do our cities insist upon it? It isn't the cities. It is the people who buy the homes. Sure there are people like me who have a home in such a place, but long for something else, but we are few in number. I had a conversation with a neighbor the other day that just drove home the point. He would like for his kid to be able to walk to the school about a kilometer away, but he does not understand that it is the street pattern and the insular nature of our neighborhood "pod" that makes this impossible. He does not seem to care about the garages dominating the houses (although not as bad as many developments). He does not seem to notice the 12-meter street widths on residential streets. It all seemed normal to him when he bought, and it still does.
    Anyone want to adopt a dog?

  22. #22

    Registered
    Aug 2004
    Location
    lavington, British Columbia
    Posts
    26
    Quote Originally posted by Cardinal
    Why do our cities insist upon it? It isn't the cities. It is the people who buy the homes. Sure there are people like me who have a home in such a place, but long for something else, but we are few in number. I had a conversation with a neighbor the other day that just drove home the point. He would like for his kid to be able to walk to the school about a kilometer away, but he does not understand that it is the street pattern and the insular nature of our neighborhood "pod" that makes this impossible. He does not seem to care about the garages dominating the houses (although not as bad as many developments). He does not seem to notice the 12-meter street widths on residential streets. It all seemed normal to him when he bought, and it still does.
    I guess the more apropriate question is how people tolerate it, i think there is not enough options for homebuyers. However, condo and apartment living is often too expensive (check out some of the prices in vancouver, ouch!) for the average person. So what do ppl do instead, they buy into the burbs.

    I must admit, some of THESE places look too much like imitation.

    (i hope this link is ok, didnt want to steal bansidth)

  23. #23

    Registered
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Solano County, California
    Posts
    6,468
    Quote Originally posted by Cardinal
    Why do our cities insist upon it? It isn't the cities. It is the people who buy the homes. Sure there are people like me who have a home in such a place, but long for something else, but we are few in number. I had a conversation with a neighbor the other day that just drove home the point. He would like for his kid to be able to walk to the school about a kilometer away, but he does not understand that it is the street pattern and the insular nature of our neighborhood "pod" that makes this impossible. He does not seem to care about the garages dominating the houses (although not as bad as many developments). He does not seem to notice the 12-meter street widths on residential streets. It all seemed normal to him when he bought, and it still does.
    I think you have good points. Part of it also is the old "I get more square footage" in the suburbs. Plus, don't forget the three car garage and the space on the lot for parking my rv.

    I love my neighborhood townhouse, but I have no kids. If I had my way, I would lift my current house up and move it to a hilltop in San Francisco.

    Off-topic:
    Personal Rant: Still, I got in an argument today with my sister, who expects me to house our visiting mother this summer. She totally ignored the fact that the last time my mother stayed in a multilayer house, she fell and hurt herself pretty bad (requriing an emergency room visit). She also ragged on me because I have no spare bedroom (of course, her having three bedrooms and no kids means that she can still have her home office while retaining a spare bedroom. Maybe it's "unfair" that she has the bigger house on one level, but....

  24. #24

    Registered
    Dec 2004
    Location
    At Silly Mid-Off
    Posts
    517
    Have to say I'm not too enamoured of the photos (not the quality, obviously, but the estate). Its the sort of estate that you wouldn't get here (UK) anymore, thankfully. (Although there are many relics from the 1980s that would be similar)

    The Australian system of developer payments sound similar to here. When a developer proposes a new estate here s/he has to make various payments, including money to the local education authority to pay for the likely number of new school places the estate will 'create' (its normally based on a fairly complex equation involving nos of couples with children, nos of homes on the estates and their numbers of bedrooms and the birth rate). If the local schools are at capacity then the developer would be expected to pay for a new one. Other payments would be the construction of roads, provision of public transport measures, footpaths, open space and maintenance payments etc. Developers often moan about it, but its a level playing field and applies to all developers and is therefore reflected in the price of the land.

  25. #25
    Cyburbian natski's avatar
    Registered
    Jun 2005
    Location
    In my own little bubble
    Posts
    2,561
    Unfortunely in Sydney, the problem of developing these estates is that they are never located near public transport- and if they are (say near a bus transitway) the buses are infrequent and never go to where you need to go. This obviously leads to the issue of everyone needing a car (it is common practise for each person in a family to own a car out here) just so they can access work etc.

    The problem then remains of having a huge (usually unecessarily huge) house with domainating garages, cars in the driveway and then cars on the side of the road- combined with narrow streets (which resemble a rabbit warren) and you have urban blight!

+ Reply to thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

More at Cyburbia

  1. Hi from Brisbane Australia
    Introduce Yourself
    Replies: 4
    Last post: 02 Dec 2012, 10:27 AM
  2. Hello from Brisbane, Australia
    Introduce Yourself
    Replies: 6
    Last post: 22 Apr 2008, 9:25 PM
  3. Replies: 11
    Last post: 06 Feb 2007, 7:40 AM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last post: 01 May 2006, 6:01 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last post: 29 May 2000, 11:38 PM