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    Lost

    http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/22/mis...out/index.html

    This is about the little boy that was lost in Utah for the past 4 days. Has anyone here ever been lost in the woods? Do you think you (or your child) could survive four days without food and water like this little boy did? It makes me so happy to know he was found alive and well, what a little trooper.

  2. #2
    Cyburbian
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    I have two tales of being lost, one where I was with a group of people that got lost and when I was with a group where 2 12 year olds got lost.

    I was with a group of backcountry skiers in Grand Teton National Park when we got stuck in an unexpected blizzard. The weather reprot did say that it was going to snow, but ony lightly. It snowed so hard and the wind blew so fast that you could not see more than 5 feet in front of you. We wandered around using a compass to try to get us back to our car, but after 4 hours, we decided to hunker down. We spent the night in an emergency shelter we created under a pine tree. When the weather broke and the sun came up, we realized that we had passed the parking lot and had travelled about 2 miles past the car. This was before GPS was widely available.

    The second time I was helping with a boy scout troop on a multi day backpacking trip. It was in the vicinity where the Brennan Hawkins was found. We were packing up and getting ready to make the trip back to the trail head. The two kids had everything ready to go and decided to head out. We were camping off of the main trail so you had to bushwack back to the trail. They made it to the trail, but started heading in the wrong direction on the trail. We had two way radios and they had one, so they radioed back saying they made it to the trail and were going to start heading out. I left about 5 minutes after they did and thought that I would catch up to them, but madeit to the car without passing them. I immediately used theradio, but they did not answer. After everyone made it to the car, we decided we needed to start a search for them. We called the Sherriffs Office and three of the adults literally ran the four miles back to where we had camped. No sign. I continued down the trail, knowing that it eventually hooked back into the main highway (about 7 miles away). After about 4 hours from the time the left the camp, I found them. They were off the main trail by about 400 feet, and I was lucky enough to spot them moving from through the thick trees. It was an incredibly gut wrenching four hours that was filled with undescribable relief when they were found.

    I cannot imagine going through the ordeal that Brennan Hawkins went through. It is amazing that he stayed alive and is in such good shape. With the cooler temps (lows right around freezing) in the mountains last night and with him falling into water yesterday, he surely would have had a difficult time surviving another night.

  3. #3
         
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    While being thankful that the boy was found, I have a concern that the parents/scout master allowed 2 12 year olds to go into the semi-wilderness by themselves.

  4. #4
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by mileage2762004
    While being thankful that the boy was found, I have a concern that the parents/scout master allowed 2 12 year olds to go into the semi-wilderness by themselves.
    They were with a camp worker at a climbing wall. The worker was helping the other kid down the climbing wall and told Brennan to wait until the other kid got down and they would head back to the camp together. Brennand wandered off at that point. The camp worker was in the right to focus on the kid on the climbing wall. The only blame falls on Brennan.

    If you were referring to the situation I was in, I left out some info, the kids decided to head out contrary to what they were told. When they radioed to us, they were again told to stay where they were until the group caught up to them.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally posted by Jaxspra
    http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/22/mis...out/index.html

    This is about the little boy that was lost in Utah for the past 4 days. Has anyone here ever been lost in the woods? Do you think you (or your child) could survive four days without food and water like this little boy did? It makes me so happy to know he was found alive and well, what a little trooper.
    When I was 15, I went on an Outward Bound trip with 9 other teenagers in Northern Idaho--we spent 17 days backpacking up and down mountains. One of the goals of Outward Bound programs is to foster self-reliance, and so after a few days the instructors let the students use a map and compass to determine their best route. We students were doing great with this for the first couple of days. On the 3rd independent day (without help from our instructors), we were on our own trying to traverse a ridge and meet them on the other side. We ended up picking the completely wrong route to climb up the ridge and found ourselves stuck on a cliff with no climbing supplies. So, lost and scared, we found a small patch of flat rock and decided to wait. Our only way of communicating with our instructors was through whistles, but unfortunately we had decided to stop about 100 feet from a small waterfall, which was making enough noise to drown out our whistles.

    We ended up waiting on that small patch of rock for two days, through lots of rain and wind. It wasn't big enough to set up a tent or camp stove, so we slept in the rain and ate trail mix for two days. Finally our diligent instructors, who had been searching up and down the ridge for two days, found us. They helped us down from the rock and showed us the correct, much easier route to ascend the ridge.

    It was really scary at the time. I wasn't stuck without food or water, but I was stuck on a small little rock with 9 other kids for two days. Definitely built a lot of character!

  6. #6
    Cyburbian Budgie's avatar
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    Never completely lost, but I did fall asleep on a bus and miss my stop by 100 miles.
    "And all this terrible change had come about because he had ceased to believe himself and had taken to believing others. " - Leo Tolstoy

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    Quote Originally posted by cololi
    They were with a camp worker at a climbing wall. The worker was helping the other kid down the climbing wall and told Brennan to wait until the other kid got down and they would head back to the camp together. Brennand wandered off at that point. The camp worker was in the right to focus on the kid on the climbing wall. The only blame falls on Brennan.
    Sorry, the national news I read didn't mention the entire story.

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    One of the people helping with the search was a father of another lost boy (I think in the same area) I can only imagine how hard this has been on him too.
    I am not sure why this story touched me so much, I just cannot imagine thinking abou tone of my own children or any child for that matter, stuck alone in the woods overnight. You hear stories about mountain lions hurting/killing children adn adults, its a miracle this little boy survived out there alone for 4 days.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian plankton's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Budgie
    Never completely lost, but I did fall asleep on a bus and miss my stop by 100 miles.
    Ha ha (in the voice of Nelson from the Simpsons)

    I have gotten lost many times in the woods. After college, my gf and I decided to travel across the country and purposefully get lost as often as possible. Very good stuff. She was an expert on foods to eat in the wild, so we ate like champs (or, like rabbits, I suppose ) while trekking all over the place. One stop at the local ranger station to get a good topo map, a compass, a water filter, and a tiny camp stove, and we were all set. Come to think of it, since we sort of know what we were doing, maybe we were never actually lost (it sure did feel like it at times, though ).

    Imho, getting lost is definitely underrated. (I keep trying to convince my wife (not the gf mentioned above) of that but she's not going for it).

  10. #10
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    *shrug* The kid WAS a boyscout. It's not really that surprising that he made it thru four days fine. He wouldn't be completely ignorant in simple forest survival tricks - even something as simple as asembling a decent shelter.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    I've only been lost when with a male driver who wouldn't stop and ask for directions.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
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    No shame in getting lost. Even Daniel Boone spent a few days, as he described it, "bewildered" before finding his way home.

    "All who wander are not lost." J.R.R. Tolkien
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

    ~ Otterpop ~

  13. #13
    Cyburbian Big Owl's avatar
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    I used to spend a lot of time backpacking in the Linville gorge wilderness area. About every couple of times i go into the gorge i would come across a someone who'd had lost their way. The most memorable was the the middle aged guy that wondered upon my campsite early one sunday morning wearing just cutoff jeans, flipflops, and a mullet. Evidently he'd had been swimming in the river on friday with some friends and he said he went to do as bears do and poop in the woods and when he came back he could not find his pals. I gave him a bag of dry cereal and some water which he had sucked down and i broke camp and lead him to the parking area i left my truck and which happened to be the same place his buddies had parked. On a bench by the trail head there was a note that read "Kenny this is not funny but in case you are not at the house give us a call. signed Jamie Joe and Jr." the nearest house was 15 miles or so a way and the nearest payphone even farther so my good natured self gave kenny a ride to his trailer. and kenny offered me some cold redneck fuel (sorry rednecks) to drink which i declined.

  14. #14
    Cyburbian
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    The only times I've been lost is when my parents don't listen to my route suggestions and rely on my map handling skills... (If my mom has the map... the chances of getting lost tend to 1)

    Give me a map and I'll handle it fine... not to say that I'm flawless, but when I do fail, it's because the map is bad

  15. #15
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    I have an infallible sense of direction. In the Army, I would lead patrols through complete darkness and always reach our target. I once wandered for several hours and miles into a trailless wilderness, coming back out to the road within 100 meters of my car. All that is good, but, I have a friend...

    K---- has the worst sense of direction of anyone I know. We once hiked down a canyon (down can be distinguished from up because the water flows in the same direction you are walking) and then up a dry side canyon. On the way back down the side canyon I detoured to pick up some packs we had dropped off. That was the last I saw of K---- for a few hours. Upon hitting the main canyon she proceeded to turn left, heading downstream instead of upstream the way we came. We learned to keep a close eye on her. Now she lives in Alaska and hikes there almost daily.
    Anyone want to adopt a dog?

  16. #16
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    One of the three factors listed as contributing to why this child was lost for 4 days: the boy's strict adherence to parental advice to avoid strangers in this case rescue workers.

    Sigh. The whole "don't talk to strangers" thing is so dumb. Adults talk to strangers all the time -- we just use our common sense about whom to talk to and whom to avoid. Some kids will take a rule like "don't talk to strangers" so much to heart that it tosses out all common sense. And I have seen some things which suggest alternate ways of keeping our kids safe without "programming" them to use this as their default mode no matter what the circumstances.

    (Maybe I shouldn't even mention it. It opens up too many things and maybe is a can of worms best left alone for now. )

  17. #17
         
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    One of the three factors listed as contributing to why this child was lost for 4 days: the boy's strict adherence to parental advice to avoid strangers in this case rescue workers.

    Sigh. The whole "don't talk to strangers" thing is so dumb. Adults talk to strangers all the time -- we just use our common sense about whom to talk to and whom to avoid. Some kids will take a rule like "don't talk to strangers" so much to heart that it tosses out all common sense. And I have seen some things which suggest alternate ways of keeping our kids safe without "programming" them to use this as their default mode no matter what the circumstances.

    (Maybe I shouldn't even mention it. It opens up too many things and maybe is a can of worms best left alone for now. )
    I agree with you MZ. I talk to strangers ALL the time and I do it with the boys around me. I make them be friendly and say hello. I try to teach them the difference and who to go to if they were to get lost.
    I did teach my boys not to let ANYONE other than mom or dad (g'ma and g'pa)touch them in thier "private area" ...I taught him to scream at the top of his lungs if anyone ever tried to touch him...so we were at the Dr. when he was very young and she went to examine him and he did exactly what I taught him to do so I had to rework all of it and add "Dr." to the list...

  18. #18
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Jaxspra
    I did teach my boys not to let ANYONE other than mom or dad (g'ma and g'pa)touch them in thier "private area" ...I taught him to scream at the top of his lungs if anyone ever tried to touch him...so we were at the Dr. when he was very young and she went to examine him and he did exactly what I taught him to do so I had to rework all of it and add "Dr." to the list...
    This may not make sense to anyone here, sigh, but because I was sexually abused as a little girl, I am hyperaware of how people tend to expect small children to put up with unwanted displays of affection from relatives and sometimes other adults and how child molesters use that to their advantage: they demand something small from the child that makes the child uncomfortable but is "socially acceptable" (even expected, sigh) and then they keep pushing for a little more and a little more. By the time it is blatantly clear to the child that this is VERY wrong, the child is deeply ashamed of what they have "allowed" to happen and the abuser has twisted things around so that the child is emotionally invested in keeping the secret -- which, of course, protects the abuser and empowers them to continue the pattern of abuse.

    So, what I taught my children was that NO affection would ever be demanded of them and if I asked nicely and they said 'no', then no meant NO, period, no exceptions. No one gets a hug or a kiss or any kind of warm-fuzzy without MUTUAL agreement and cooperation in my household. This has pixxed off a few relatives who thought that I should make my kid "give sugar" to them. Yeah, F.O. If you get in the kid's good graces, they might willingly cuddle up to you. But if you think you are entitled to demand that my child meet your need for love and affection you lonely old psycho, just F.O. I will side with my child every time and I don't care if you NEVER invite me back to your sick little den of iniquity. And since they feel no obligation to tolerate ANY unwanted touch, not even a hug, I don't really need to have any discussions with them about people wanting to touch their private parts. (And doctors aren't touching for "affection", so it isn't a problem. )

    I have no fears at all that my kids will be molested or commit rape themselves, not even "date rape": that street runs both ways and no means NO and it is inviolate.

  19. #19
         
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    This may not make sense to anyone here, sigh, but because I was sexually abused as a little girl, I am hyperaware of how people tend to expect small children to put up with unwanted displays of affection from relatives and sometimes other adults and how child molesters use that to their advantage: they demand something small from the child that makes the child uncomfortable but is "socially acceptable" (even expected, sigh) and then they keep pushing for a little more and a little more. By the time it is blatantly clear to the child that this is VERY wrong, the child is deeply ashamed of what they have "allowed" to happen and the abuser has twisted things around so that the child is emotionally invested in keeping the secret -- which, of course, protects the abuser and empowers them to continue the pattern of abuse.

    So, what I taught my children was that NO affection would ever be demanded of them and if I asked nicely and they said 'no', then no meant NO, period, no exceptions. No one gets a hug or a kiss or any kind of warm-fuzzy without MUTUAL agreement and cooperation in my household. This has pixxed off a few relatives who thought that I should make my kid "give sugar" to them. Yeah, F.O. If you get in the kid's good graces, they might willingly cuddle up to you. But if you think you are entitled to demand that my child meet your need for love and affection you lonely old psycho, just F.O. I will side with my child every time and I don't care if you NEVER invite me back to your sick little den of iniquity. And since they feel no obligation to tolerate ANY unwanted touch, not even a hug, I don't really need to have any discussions with them about people wanting to touch their private parts. (And doctors aren't touching for "affection", so it isn't a problem. )

    I have no fears at all that my kids will be molested or commit rape themselves, not even "date rape": that street runs both ways and no means NO and it is inviolate.
    Wow, what a great way to teach them, I never thought about it that way at all. I make the boys give "hugs and kisses" before we leave Grandmas and Grandpas out of (what I believed to be) respect AND I kiss and hug the boys ALL the time, even when they don't want it. But the way you explained that I completely agree. I agree they should never have to do anything that makes them uncomfortable and it may have made the "no touching" conversation a little easier (unnecesarry actually) and even perhaps a little more comfortable with sexuality as they grow up. Thanks for that insight, I really appreciate it and may try to incorporate that in our home. I just always thought "no touching" was sufficient, I don't think so now.

  20. #20
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Jaxspra
    Wow, what a great way to teach them, I never thought about it that way at all.
    Most people don't think about it. Most people see no connection at all between the two things. But when you read the stories about victims, most of the time the inappropriate and uncomfortable touching began way before it could be legally classified as "sexual molestation" and the kids put up with it because a) they were expected to b) they would have been treated like loons for protesting and c) the fact that sometimes people who love you force affection on you blurs the line and makes kids confused about what is okay touching and what is not okay touching, in part because it teaches them that sometimes it IS okay to force affection and make someone uncomfortable. My kids have no confusion: if it makes you uncomfortable or you don't want it, it is not okay. And that makes it all a simple judgment call for them. And they know I will back them up.

    Oh, and, um, you're welcome.

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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    Most people don't think about it. Most people see no connection at all between the two things. But when you read the stories about victims, most of the time the inappropriate and uncomfortable touching began way before it could be legally classified as "sexual molestation" and the kids put up with it because a) they were expected to b) they would have been treated like loons for protesting and c) the fact that sometimes people who love you force affection on you blurs the line and makes kids confused about what is okay touching and what is not okay touching, in part because it teaches them that sometimes it IS okay to force affection and make someone uncomfortable. My kids have no confusion: if it makes you uncomfortable or you don't want it, it is not okay. And that makes it all a simple judgment call for them. And they know I will back them up.

    Oh, and, um, you're welcome.
    Oh, and, um, I meant to say thanks.

  22. #22
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Jaxspra
    Wow, what a great way to teach them, I never thought about it that way at all. I make the boys give "hugs and kisses" before we leave Grandmas and Grandpas out of (what I believed to be) respect AND I kiss and hug the boys ALL the time, even when they don't want it. But the way you explained that I completely agree. I agree they should never have to do anything that makes them uncomfortable and it may have made the "no touching" conversation a little easier (unnecesarry actually) and even perhaps a little more comfortable with sexuality as they grow up. Thanks for that insight, I really appreciate it and may try to incorporate that in our home. I just always thought "no touching" was sufficient, I don't think so now.
    You did, silly.

  23. #23
         
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    You did, silly.
    Oh man, it has been one of those days!!!

  24. #24
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    I agree with MZ, as well. [sarcasm] Heaven forbid we teach children to think rather than execute instructions... [/sarcasm]

  25. #25
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by abrowne
    I agree with MZ, as well. [sarcasm] Heaven forbid we teach children to think rather than execute instructions... [/sarcasm]
    Exactly -- that is the big problem with teaching them rules like 'Don't talk to strangers'. I used a rubric that would allow them to learn to exercise their judgment rather than simply following some Rule that some adult dictated to them. That only works if the adult can be with them all the time and you don't mind creating an automaton. Sigh. The child in the story would not have been lost for 4 days if he had not been dutifully avoiding the rescue workers and had been taught to use good sense instead. I remember some other story where a girl escaped her kidnapper because she was NOT taught to "never talk to strangers" and had the clarity to run out into the street and stop a truck driver, who saved her. In the worst possible situations, strangers may be your ONLY hope. Adults know that and should teach kids how to judge when, where, and why to talk to strangers rather than just dictating some inflexible Rule.

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