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Thread: The Great Lakes: Magnificent!

  1. #51
    Cyburbian Joe Iliff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Bear Up North
    It is the largest collection of fresh water in the world. The lakes consist of more than 94,000 square miles of surface water, with a drainage area of over 201,000 square miles.

    I think the "largest collection" claim is debatable, given that Lake Baikal in Asia has a volume of 23,000 km≥ and is approximately equal to the total volume of the 5 Great Lakes, or to about 20% of the total fresh water on the earth.

    Not to bemoan the Great Lakes (I'm a native Hoosier), but think about an equal amount of water in 1 really big lake!
    JOE ILIFF
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  2. #52
    Cyburbian big_g's avatar
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    Great Lakes ROCK!!!, Yeahhhh Boyyyy!!!

  3. #53
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Kelly's Island, Marblehead, Ferry

    Kelly's Island.....Kelly's Island is an island in the western basin of Lake Erie. Over the years it has become the "party island" for middle-aged folks, as they abandon the much-younger and wilder crowds at Put-In-Bay (on South Bass Island, just a few miles away). The island is famous for "glacial grooves".....long, deep grooves that are sliced into the exposed rocky shoreline of the island.

    Now, new theories are emerging as to what caused these grooves. The latest theories, based on evidence of similar grooves that all are aligned in the same direction, point toward a major "event", rather than slow-moving glaciers receeding.

    Marblehead Peninsula.....The Marblehead Peninsula, located midway between Toledo and Cleveland, is on Lake Erie's southern shore. This interesting jut of land is home to wide, sandy beaches, rocky shorelines, clean water lapping against lots crammed with small and large cottages, the oldest lighthouse on the Great Lakes, a small religion-based community, and a quaint tourist town.

    It is also home to deep open-pit limestone quarries, a number of taverns that this Bear has frequented, and a Wal-Mart.

    Marblehead is in the news, at least locally.....the ferry boats started running again from Marblehead to Kelly's Island. The ice on the lake is just about gone, a victim of a quite mild January. Marblehead residents don't have to use the airplace shuttle to get to the island.....at least until the next freeze shuts the ferry service back down.

    Bear
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  4. #54
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    Supreme Ct. decides not to take up Michigan beach walking case
    Headline and article from the Detroit Free Press:
    http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...WS11/602210439

    TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. (AP) -- The U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday refused to consider whether people have a right to stroll along private property aligning Great Lakes beaches in Michigan.

    Justices left undisturbed a state Supreme Court ruling last year that found beach walking is a right.

    In its 5-2 ruling, Michigan's highest court said the area between the water and the ordinary high water mark on shore is accessible to all under the common-law doctrine of natural resources as a public trust.

    The two dissenting justices also recognized a right to walk along private shoreline property, but only on the narrow band of wet sand immediately beside the water.

    About 70 percent of Michigan's 3,200 miles of Great Lakes shoreline property is privately owned.

    Pamela Burt, an attorney who supported the rights of beach walkers, said the U.S. Supreme Court's decision should lay the beach walking issue to rest.

    "It adds another layer of protection for us," Burt said, adding that she wasn't surprised the justices declined to get involved. The Supreme Court traditionally has deferred to state courts in cases raising issues of public access and property rights in areas below the high water mark, she said.

    The case is listed on the U.S. Supreme Court docket as Goeckel v. Glass, 05-764.
    Beach Walkers Rejoice.
    Oddball
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  5. #55
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by JNA
    Supreme Ct. decides not to take up Michigan beach walking case
    Headline and article from the Detroit Free Press:
    http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...WS11/602210439



    Beach Walkers Rejoice.

    Too late friend, all the landowners have put up hideous fences up to and into the water.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  6. #56
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner
    Too late friend, all the landowners have put up hideous fences up to and into the water.
    Yeah, but the walkers can now remove the fences.

    Some beachfront property owners are major arseholes. Beaches, free to all.
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    Let's not be didactic in this profession, because that is a path to disillusion and irrelevancy.

    Six seasons and a movie!

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally posted by mendelman
    Quote Originally posted by timeo
    Ontario has a really good location within the Great Lakes region since it's in direct contact with four of the five lakes (Michigan being the only one not, and thus the one that we all hated when we were young, haha).
    Hate to nit-pick, but all the Great Lakes are directly connected to each other:
    Michigan to Huron via the 5-mile wide Straits of Mackinaw (really Michigan and Huron are just one large lake), Superior to Huron via St. Mary's river/Soo Locks, Huron to Erie via Lake St. Clair and Detroit River, Erie to Ontario via Niagara River.
    Great thread. Mendelman, what timeo clearly meant was that the province of Ontario is in contact with four of the five Great Lakes.

  8. #58

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    Great Lakes memories

    Had some wonderful times around the lakes, having grown up in south central MI. Favorite memories are:

    Getting caught in a fierce and unexpected storm while ferrying 4 hours out to Isle Royale (all outdoorspeople should visit Isle Royale!)

    Hunting morels and sauteeing them over the campfire on the beach on Beaver Island

    Wading in the warm and shallow waters off the Northport Lighthouse

    Exploring the ghost towns of the Keewenaw Peninsula

    And of course... Cedar Point!

    (Harsens Island, at the outlet of Lake St. Clair was a pretty neat place, too)

  9. #59
    Cyburbian njm's avatar
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    I'll second the pedantic... Rochester is actually on Lake Ontario. While the city center is up the Genessee, Charlotte and the Port of Rochester are on the Lake and part of the City of Rochester.

    I grew up near Milwaukee (Washington Cty, WI) and have always valued being near to a jellyfish-free body for refreshing summer swimming. Those alewives, though, ugh.

    Then in Mpls/StP, trips to Duluth came around once a year or so... swimming in Superior in May is an experience! (certainly one not to be repeated)

    While someone pointed out that the lakes may have a rival, that they are entirely natural is quite impressive. One of my primary interests in planning is to be able to look for creative solutions to the problems that these cities face--how the valuable asset of the Lakes can be used without being abused.

  10. #60
         
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    First Hand Experience

    I am a lifeguard of 4 years (and many more not working) at Oak Street Beach in Chicago, and there are some things I'd like to make clear.

    Lake Michigan is not cold in the summer at the south end, by May, the temp is above 60, by August it regularly breaks 80.

    It is extremely clean in Chicago. The Chicago Park District does testing every morning for e. Coli and other fun things that would endanger you and if they are present, the beach closes. The 26 miles of swimable waterfront (the most maintained, let alone lifeguarded by any municipality in the world) is the cleanest urban waterfront after Stokholm, and who wants to swim there.

    The Beaches in Chicago are an Urban Planners Dream. They're a natural park providing relaxation, air conditioning and senic suroundings for millions, several within walking distance of shopping, business, hotels and transit. They are a public space, kept clean and safe with public funds.

    Thank god for Burnham Green laws that keep buildings off the lakefront....stupid lakepoint tower

  11. #61

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    Quote Originally posted by burnham follower
    The Beaches in Chicago are an Urban Planners Dream. They're a natural park providing relaxation, air conditioning and senic suroundings for millions, several within walking distance of shopping, business, hotels and transit. They are a public space, kept clean and safe with public funds.

    Thank god for Burnham Green laws that keep buildings off the lakefront....stupid lakepoint tower
    A. Montgomery Ward did more than Burnham or anyone else to keep the Chicago lakefront "clear and free" of any buildings.

  12. #62
         
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    Quote Originally posted by pete-rock
    A. Montgomery Ward did more than Burnham or anyone else to keep the Chicago lakefront "clear and free" of any buildings.
    Yes but the name of the Laws that keep it that was are Burnham Green Laws

  13. #63

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    Quote Originally posted by burnham follower
    Yes but the name of the Laws that keep it that was are Burnham Green Laws
    Really? I know Burnham, I know the 1909 plan, but I've never heard of anything called the Burnham Green Laws. Maybe I'm just misinformed; it wouldn't be the first time.

  14. #64
         
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    Any research I've done has called them by that name. They basically say that all lakefront land shall remain open as public space for public use, which it almost entirely has. The exceptions are anything North of Hollywood Blvd., because most of that was already developed, but there are still plenty of public areas, and anything south of Jackson Park/71st, and again, plenty of public areas, but it was developed before the laws went into action. The city basically set the law to there can be nothing private East of Lake Shore Drive, which is why Lake Point Tower is such an eye sore (that big black building with no flat surfaces), they did a lot of lobbying to get around the Burnham ordinances. The laws are also comming into play as Navy Pier may be redone, because developers want to put Hotels and waterparks out there.....for profit, which is going far beyond keeping it public domain.

  15. #65

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    Quote Originally posted by burnham follower
    Any research I've done has called them by that name. They basically say that all lakefront land shall remain open as public space for public use, which it almost entirely has. The exceptions are anything North of Hollywood Blvd., because most of that was already developed, but there are still plenty of public areas, and anything south of Jackson Park/71st, and again, plenty of public areas, but it was developed before the laws went into action. The city basically set the law to there can be nothing private East of Lake Shore Drive, which is why Lake Point Tower is such an eye sore (that big black building with no flat surfaces), they did a lot of lobbying to get around the Burnham ordinances. The laws are also comming into play as Navy Pier may be redone, because developers want to put Hotels and waterparks out there.....for profit, which is going far beyond keeping it public domain.
    Yes, I'm familiar with all of this. I'm familiar with Chicago's Lakefront Protection Ordinance, which was passed in the 1980s. It was Lake Point Tower (and also McCormick Place before it) that pressed the City to pass the ordinance. But I think it was A. Montgomery Ward's lawsuits that had the first impact on keeping the lakefront "free and clear" of development, and the 1909 Burnham Plan maintained that policy.

    I googled "burnham green laws" and got nothing. Also, I checked out my Encyclopedia of Chicago and saw no Burnham green laws entry, but did find a reference to A. Montgomery Ward's lawsuits.

    Not trying to pick on you, I just never, ever heard that "Burnham Green Laws" term before, and I've been a planner in Chicago for 18 years.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally posted by Bear Up North
    Kelly's Island.....Kelly's Island is an island in the western basin of Lake Erie. Over the years it has become the "party island" for middle-aged folks, as they abandon the much-younger and wilder crowds at Put-In-Bay (on South Bass Island, just a few miles away). The island is famous for "glacial grooves".....long, deep grooves that are sliced into the exposed rocky shoreline of the island.

    Now, new theories are emerging as to what caused these grooves. The latest theories, based on evidence of similar grooves that all are aligned in the same direction, point toward a major "event", rather than slow-moving glaciers receeding.

    Marblehead Peninsula.....The Marblehead Peninsula, located midway between Toledo and Cleveland, is on Lake Erie's southern shore. This interesting jut of land is home to wide, sandy beaches, rocky shorelines, clean water lapping against lots crammed with small and large cottages, the oldest lighthouse on the Great Lakes, a small religion-based community, and a quaint tourist town.

    It is also home to deep open-pit limestone quarries, a number of taverns that this Bear has frequented, and a Wal-Mart.

    Marblehead is in the news, at least locally.....the ferry boats started running again from Marblehead to Kelly's Island. The ice on the lake is just about gone, a victim of a quite mild January. Marblehead residents don't have to use the airplace shuttle to get to the island.....at least until the next freeze shuts the ferry service back down.

    Bear
    Bear, went to Kelly's last weekend on the fabled "Booze Cruize" ferry ride out of Sandusky. It was a hoot. I highly recommend this trip if you haven't gone. Drinking on the way, then touring the bars there and riding the ferry back.
    Don't forget Marblehead's (actually Lakside's) state park. It is great with a huge shallow beach that is about 6' deep 250' from shore. Great for kids and has lots of trails/beach area to walk. Awesome.
    Who's gonna re-invent the wheel today?

  17. #67
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Fun Fact

    Here's a fun Great Lakes' fact for you to ponder.....

    Catawba Island, OH has more boat docks than San Diego, CA.

    Of course, Catawba Island isn't really an island.....it is a peninsula, just east of Port Clinton, OH. The square miles of Catawba Island is probably less than San Diego's square miles.

    We all know the big difference..... available dock hours. In San Diego, available 365 days. Catawba Island's would be available late April through late October.

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  18. #68
         
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    I visited Door County, Wisconsin (the peninsula that juts up just northeast of Greenbay) the first part of June this year. As a westerner it was very different from what I am used to. All the fresh water made a sweet smell that you don't get from smaller lakes. The small towns along the bay and the lake were quite lovely. Spent the night in Fish Creek and toured around and then walked along the lake shore at White Fish Dunes State Park. Very few people there and the lake was so flat you could water ski on it if you wanted. Glad we were there before the heavy vacation season really got going. I wish we had more time there to enjoy it more.

  19. #69
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Senior Jefe
    I visited Door County, Wisconsin (the peninsula that juts up just northeast of Greenbay) the first part of June this year. As a westerner it was very different from what I am used to. All the fresh water made a sweet smell that you don't get from smaller lakes. The small towns along the bay and the lake were quite lovely. Spent the night in Fish Creek and toured around and then walked along the lake shore at White Fish Dunes State Park. Very few people there and the lake was so flat you could water ski on it if you wanted. Glad we were there before the heavy vacation season really got going. I wish we had more time there to enjoy it more.
    Very pretty area. Look northeast from that area and you will see this Bear, walking the beach between Naubinway, MI and Big Bay De Noc.

    Some famous Cyburbians hail from nearby.....Green Bay area and Fox River Valley area. Another famous Cyburbian travels to the Door Peninsula often.

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  20. #70
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    Coast Guard Plans Live-Fire Exercises

    Headline and Article from the AP Wire:
    http://www.newsday.com/news/nationwo...orld-headlines

    Highlights:
    The Coast Guard is stirring up a storm with plans to establish 34 live-fire zones across the Great Lakes for training exercises that it says are vital to homeland security. Boaters and ferry operators fear getting caught in the line of the fire.

    The exercises would be at least five miles offshore, in remote areas where they would pose little if any risk to civilian vessels, Lanier said.

    But some of the proposed firing zones overlap established ferry routes, including Marks' Beaver Island run and those that transport cars across Lake Michigan.

    A flurry of complaints prompted the Coast Guard to postpone a final decision and extend its public-comment period from August until Nov. 13.

    "Our defensive weapons are only as good as the training given to those who use them," wrote Butch Greiffendorf of Grand Junction. "Remember, if evil comes, they will bring all they have.
    Are you concerned or that is just way things are now.
    Good closing quote.
    Oddball
    Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?
    Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
    Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
    From Kelly's Heroes (1970)


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    No. Just some parts wake up faster than others.
    Broke parts take a little longer, though.
    From Electric Horseman (1979)

  21. #71
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by pete-rock View post
    Not trying to pick on you, I just never, ever heard that "Burnham Green Laws" term before.
    Dittos.

    The lakefront is not protected by anything legal except possibly decisions from Ward's lawsuits (but then didn't he lose them? The Art Institute has been expanding with impunity).

    I think the real reason the lakefront created as part of the 1909 plan is still mostly parkland is because its owned by the parks district and it would be a huge political battle if they tried to dump it.
    Reality does not conform to your ideology.
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  22. #72
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Ambassador Bridge

    Opening an old (and great) thread.....

    Something like 25% of all import-export traffic between the U.S.A. and Canada flows through the Port of Detroit, either via the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel or via the Ambassador Bridge. Most heavy truck traffic is on the bridge. The capacity of this bridge is close to being maxed-out. The new world economy will only increase that traffic.

    The Ambassador Bridge (once the largest suspension bridge in the world, now the 51st largest) links Detroit with Windsor, Ontario, Canada. The bridge is owned by a company named Detroit International Bridge Company. That company is operated by a fiesty dude named Manuel Maroun. His company also owns much of the land at the anchorages to the bridge and many of the bridge-site businesses that cater to the import-export business. He is raking in the dough......living and succeeding at "The American Dream".

    Maroun now wants to prevent any Michigan-Ontario consortium from building another crossing, probably via building another bridge next to the Ambassador Bridge. Articles I have browsed indicate that he deliberately ignores certain regulations relating to cross-border traffic, including regs that deal with terrorist issues.

    This Bear does not have an opinion on this whole story.....waiting for more info.....but I encourage others who might know a little bit about this to post the info. My guess is that our own DetroitPlanner will share some info.

    Bear
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  23. #73
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Definitely a pandora's box.

    The City of Windsor and the MTO (Ontario Transportation Ministry) want another crossing further south.

    Further south on the Detroit side is frought with environmental and environmental justice issues.

    Manny is very powerful. Besides owning the Bridge, he also owns CENTRA, a very large trucking company that does a ton of cross border traffic.

    Manny got a permit to build a 'twin' bridge from the Coast Guard because his span will not impact frieghters. He wants to use that to ram the project through the rest of the environmental process without an impact report.

    There are others vying for private bridge crossings as well. However both federal govts don't really trust the private companies, though they like their money.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  24. #74
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner View post
    Definitely a pandora's box.

    The City of Windsor and the MTO (Ontario Transportation Ministry) want another crossing further south.

    Further south on the Detroit side is frought with environmental and environmental justice issues.

    Manny is very powerful. Besides owning the Bridge, he also owns CENTRA, a very large trucking company that does a ton of cross border traffic.

    Manny got a permit to build a 'twin' bridge from the Coast Guard because his span will not impact frieghters. He wants to use that to ram the project through the rest of the environmental process without an impact report.

    There are others vying for private bridge crossings as well. However both federal govts don't really trust the private companies, though they like their money.
    Perhaps this is more appropriate for the transport section of this forvm, but for many years now I have been wondering what the river crossing situation would/will be like in the Detroit/Windsor area should for some-odd reason (an EU-style customs union/'Strong Perimeter', a national merger or whatever) the checkpoints along the Canada-USA border would disappear. Can you say "fast-track construction of two or more six or eight-lane freeway-connected toll bridges"?

    Ditto in the Buffalo/Niagara region.



    Mike

  25. #75
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    All I know is during 9-11 and the electrical outage of a couple of summers back, the freeways and surface streets were jammed with idling diesel emitting 18 wheel trucks.

    I'd agree that this is not exactly Great Lakes Magnificent sort of stuff. ITS is used to help deliver manifests earlier though, that is sort of cool.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

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