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Thread: The Great Lakes: Magnificent!

  1. #76
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    HEADLINE:
    Shipping groups sue Michigan over state's new ballast-water law
    From the AP Wire: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wi...gion-apnewyork

    HIGHLIGHTS:
    A coalition of shipping companies and industry groups from the United States, Canada and Barbados representing ocean freighters that transport cargo on the Great Lakes has sued Michigan, claiming its new ballast-water law is unconstitutional.

    The law, which took effect Jan. 1, is among the first of its type in the nation. It is aimed at stopping the further introduction of invasive species into the lakes through the discharge of ocean water used as ballast.

    The law requires all oceangoing ships visiting Michigan ports to obtain a state permit by either promising not to discharge ballast water or proving they are equipped to sanitize ballast tanks with one of four state-approved technologies.

    What's wrong with this picture? The same shippers that brought us zebra mussels are now suing Michigan to stop us from protecting ourselves from invasive species," Andy Buchsbaum, director of the National Wildlife Federation's Great Lakes office in Ann Arbor, told The Muskegon Chronicle.
    I take the State of Michigan's side on this, if the US or Canada don't regulate this let the state.
    Oddball
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  2. #77
    Quote Originally posted by Bear Up North View post
    Maroun now wants to prevent any Michigan-Ontario consortium from building another crossing, probably via building another bridge next to the Ambassador Bridge. Articles I have browsed indicate that he deliberately ignores certain regulations relating to cross-border traffic, including regs that deal with terrorist issues.
    Bear
    Very interesting topic! Actually, the area I am originally from (south of Detroit) has been one of the proposed locations for another bridge to Canada. It has been fiercely contested by residents of the area however. Anyone who uses the Ambassador Bridge or drives by it on their commute can attest that another link to Canada is sorely needed. However, NIMBY rules apply
    In the beginning there was nothing...then Chuck Norris Roundhouse kicked that nothing in the face and said "Get a job". That is the story of the universe.

  3. #78
    Cyburbian Flying Monkeys's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Copper View post
    Lake Ontario bluffs
    Those pictures are wonderful ! The second picture is really sharp, and the tree colors with the water color...cool pics, makes me want to visit.

    All of the pictures in this thread are great getting my travel jones going.... Great pics all.

    Also, I have put on my list of things to do to go back and explore some of the old threads.
    What’s in a name? – Your reputation….:)

  4. #79
    Cyburbian Fat Cat's avatar
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    Fat Cat

    I am not from the Great Lakes region, but have had the opportunity to work for two cities, one on Lake Michigan and one on Lake Huron. Both had city owned marinas and beachs. I enjoyed my time in both cities. Mrs Katt loved to visit me on weekends when it was her turn to visit me (we had a communter marriage for a few years). When it was time for her to leave she always wanted to go to the beach before saying goodby. We many wonderful moments on both lakes. We have visited the other lakes, but there is nothing like living on one of the Great Lakes and walking to the shore (even during a storm), We would love to able to return to either areas, we made some wonderful friends and we still stay in touch.
    You are absolutely right, it is a great area, that has much to offer.

  5. #80
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    BUMP
    From USA TODAY -
    HEADLINE:
    For Great Lakes, a future with less industry
    Push for cleaner waterfronts changing attitudes toward longtime employers
    http://www.usatoday.com/printedition...over03.art.htm

    HIGHLIGHTS:
    "The Great Lakes are viewed more today like the Grand Canyon or Yosemite — a natural resource rather than a waste receptacle for industry," says Cameron Davis, executive director of the Alliance for the Great Lakes, the oldest environmental group dedicated to the lakes' protection.

    People who love the Great Lakes complain that they are the nation's neglected treasure, ignored in Congress and overshadowed by the East and West coasts.

    A century ago, the economic winners were the places that got factories. Industry made boomtowns of Cleveland and Buffalo and Muskegon, Mich. The losers were places you've never heard of because the waterfront wasn't used.

    Today, the tables have turned. Pristine coast is a gold mine.
    I believe we here in Cyburbia have a deep appreciation for the Great Lakes.
    Oddball
    Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?
    Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
    Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
    From Kelly's Heroes (1970)


    Are you sure you're not hurt ?
    No. Just some parts wake up faster than others.
    Broke parts take a little longer, though.
    From Electric Horseman (1979)

  6. #81
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    Vacation Planning in the Great Lakes

    I am relatively new to the forum, and was very pleased with the recent additions to this thread, as the thread had previously escaped my attention.

    Despite their blustery weather, I miss the Great Lakes. I try to recreate on the shorelines as much as possible, but it's never enough.

    Maybe this will be the year that I make good on my dream trip - a "Round the Lake" bike tour of one of the lakes. Lake Michigan would be the logical choice, as I grew up in the area and know they have a signed routing system. That's a long trip, however, as it is a big lake. Does anyone know if any of the other lakes have circumferential bike routes signed?

  7. #82
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Sasra View post
    Maybe this will be the year that I make good on my dream trip - a "Round the Lake" bike tour of one of the lakes. Lake Michigan would be the logical choice, as I grew up in the area and know they have a signed routing system. That's a long trip, however, as it is a big lake. Does anyone know if any of the other lakes have circumferential bike routes signed?
    I'm pretty sure they all have circle tours. I don't know if I would want to try to circle them by bike though, particularly Superior or Huron.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  8. #83
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Yeah, a bike tour of one of the lakes would be pretty daunting. But, hey, all the power to ya if you enjoy doing it.

    I think it would be cool to circle one of the lakes, if not all of them, sometime, stopping in a different place every day...Chicago one day, Holland the next, Ludington the next, etc.

    Lake Michigan would probably be the easiest to do since it is entirely in one country and has the most favorable topography. I would like to explore some of the other Great Lakes sometime though, especially the Canadian sides. I wonder if they have the circle tour signs in Canada too?

  9. #84
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    Lake Michigan would probably be the easiest to do since it is entirely in one country and has the most favorable topography. I would like to explore some of the other Great Lakes sometime though, especially the Canadian sides. I wonder if they have the circle tour signs in Canada too?
    Yes, they have them in Canada too. Growing up, we were in a favorable location to take these and we did much of the circle tours for family vacations. The one exception was we did not make it very far past the Algoma Canyon along Lake Superior in Canada and MN. You made a good observation about terrain, though you can't really do Lake Michigan without going to Sleeping Bear or Indiana dunes. I know I sure the heck would not want to take my bike up the Niagra Escarpment.

    One suggestion for Lake Michigan would be to maybe take a ferry to shorten the trip and do only the northern (wilderness) or southern (industry and tourism) portions.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  10. #85
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Low-Water Levels

    Water levels in the Great Lakes are at or near historic lows. Some of this is just the natural flucuations relative to rain, snowpack, drought conditions. Many are arguing that human-caused climate change is also creating lower lake levels.

    Those lower levels affect commercial shipping. The big lake carriers will have considerably less cargo per/trip, because of lower channel depths. Those huge boats are carrying coal for power, limestone for construction, iron ore for the steel mills. "Salties" (ocean vessels) carry inbound specialties (machine tools, unique manufactured items, specialty lumber products) and carry outbound grains and other commodities.

    Lower levels also affect recreational activities, especially boating. Many marinas have had to close due to the low water conditions. In many marinas still operating, getting your boat out to the open water is a real (and potentially prop-busting) challenge.

    Oddly enough.....lack of winter ice cover is a big reason for lower lake levels. Open water in the lower lakes during the winter evaporates at a much-faster rate than in the summer. Lake Erie covered with ice will have very little evaporation.

    This year (2008, February).....not much ice on western Lake Erie. The bays and around the islands have some ice, but not a lot. The Coast Guard rescuing idiotic (poor decision-making) fishermen is common in late winter.

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  11. #86

    Great Lakes Compact

    I'm glad to see this thread on the Great Lakes as there is a pressing issue of the day regarding the protection of the Great Lakes. The
    Great Lakes Compact was put together to protect the Great Lakes and many states have approved but if you love the Great Lakes and live in one of the surrounding states that as of yet has not signed the Great Lakes Compact into law I'd suggest contacting your representatives.

  12. #87
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    All That Water

    One of the hot topics in the next 10 years will involve discussions on whether or not water from the Great Lakes should be "sold" to those places that need water, because of declining availability and increased population and arigultural requirements. Last week, Ohio's Lt. Governor was in Toledo and hinted at Ohio selling water.

    After a huge public outcry, he recanted his statements the next day.

    I have to believe that the politicians in all of the states are having this internal debate......sell water and make big money OR use water availability to "attract-back" industry, commerce, population.

    Water IS "gold"......and we folks on the Great Lakes are holding one-fifth of the world's supply.

    Bear
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  13. #88
    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Here's a question for you:

    Shorelines of Chicago and Toronto (the largest cities on the lakes and both recognized World Cities)... which is better (1) non-motorized recreationally, (2) motorized recreationally (3) lake-vantage-point aesthetically, (4) skyline-vantage-point aesthetically, or (5) any other way to categorize and rate them you can think of?

  14. #89
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Bear Up North View post
    Water IS "gold"......and we folks on the Great Lakes are holding one-fifth of the world's supply.
    ...well, surface fresh water anyways. As to the suggestion that states having Great Lake shoreline should sell their water, we have only to look at the example of the Aral Sea to discover what the future holds if they go that route.

    EDIT: I'd say that if Michigan decides to sell its' share of the Great Lakes because of any (auto industry induced) budget problems we're currently experiencing, it'd be the moral equivalent of cutting down orchard trees for use as firewood!
    Last edited by Maister; 07 Apr 2008 at 11:00 AM.
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  15. #90
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    Here's a question for you:

    Shorelines of Chicago and Toronto (the largest cities on the lakes and both recognized World Cities)... which is better (1) non-motorized recreationally, (2) motorized recreationally (3) lake-vantage-point aesthetically, (4) skyline-vantage-point aesthetically, or (5) any other way to categorize and rate them you can think of?
    What?

    I don't understand what you're asking.
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    Let's not be didactic in this profession, because that is a path to disillusion and irrelevancy.

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  16. #91
    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mendelman View post
    What?

    I don't understand what you're asking.
    Compare the Lake Michigan/Ontario shores in the two cities.
    (1) Which has better trails, beaches etc for non-motorized recreation?
    (2) Which has better access and facilities for boating, etc?
    (3) Which city offers the better vantage points to their respective lakes (i.e. Sears/Hancock vs. CN Tower vs. other vantage points not necessarily high)
    (4) Which lake offers the best vantage point to their respective cities?
    (5) Any other comparisons or observations anyone has about either Chicago's or Toronto's lakefront, whether activities, adventures, history, what-have-you

  17. #92
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
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    Hands down - Chicago beats Toronto on every count, though Toronto is no slouch.

    1) Which has better trails, beaches etc for non-motorized recreation?
    Chicago has 20+ miles of continuous lakefront parks, beaches, and paved trails (plus a golf course on the Northside)
    (2) Which has better access and facilities for boating, etc?
    Half-dozen large harbors for boats. Many large beaches for accessing water with sail boards/kayaks,
    (3) Which city offers the better vantage points to their respective lakes (i.e. Sears/Hancock vs. CN Tower vs. other vantage points not necessarily high)
    About 10-15 miles of the high rise buildings (office downtown and residential north/south of downtown) offer great views of the Lake.
    (4) Which lake offers the best vantage point to their respective cities?
    Chicago because the world famous skyline and individually uniquness buildings.
    (5) Any other comparisons or observations anyone has about either Chicago's or Toronto's lakefront, whether activities, adventures, history, what-have-you
    Toronto does have the nice Islands just off shore, but the actual lakefront downtown is cut off by an elevated freeway and monolithic towers/compounds.

    Chicago has parks and green and concert venues and stadium and museum campus right on the lakefront. We do have a limited access highway running most of the lakefront, but it is a surface road on the north and a subsurface highway to the south of downtown that affords great views of the city and Lake. It also doesn't cut-off access as much as Toronto's elevated roadway.
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    Let's not be didactic in this profession, because that is a path to disillusion and irrelevancy.

    Six seasons and a movie!

  18. #93
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    I'd agree Chicago has parkland and great access. Tornoto unfortunately gave way to the evil condo developers for much of its waterfront. There are pockets of accessiblity along the shore, but no City along the Great Lakes beats Chicago for access.

    From my casual observations:

    1, Chicago
    2. Milwaukee
    3. Windsor, ON

    Detroit is making huge strides in this, but we have aways to go. And it is Technically not on the Lake. Its on a strait. Toledo has also some nice access, but it is either along the Maumee River and not directly on the Great Lakes (but its pretty darned close) or outside of the City Limits at the State Park.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  19. #94
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    HEADLINE: Wisconsin governor signs Great Lakes compact
    http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g...X6OjQD90UHRR00

    HIGHLIGHT:
    Gov. Jim Doyle has signed legislation making Wisconsin the fifth state to approve an interstate compact aimed at protecting the Great Lakes.

    The compact would ban most diversions of water from the lakes' basin. Cities that straddle the basin's border or lie within counties that straddle the border could apply for an exemption. But any Great Lakes governor could block an exemption as well as withdrawals from outside the basin.

    Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania have yet to do so.
    I would think that Michigan has the most to lose if the the compact does not become law.
    Oddball
    Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?
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    Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
    From Kelly's Heroes (1970)


    Are you sure you're not hurt ?
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    Broke parts take a little longer, though.
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  20. #95
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    JNA Michigan is most concerned about invasive species being brought in through the St. Lawrence Seaway. These include the Sea Lamprey and Zebra Mussles which have really done a number on our environment. I don't disagree with you that for Michigan protecting the Great Lakes is a no-brainer, but I understand no other State or Ontario has signed onto Michigan's issue about shipping. The State is rightfully concerned that if we enact the law without the support of other states/Ontario, we would lose a lot of our shipping to Windsor, Toledo, Duluth, or even Gary. Also if we have the legislation and others don't we share the same ecology so that we would be impacted by invasive plants and critters anyways. They could be using it as a bully club.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  21. #96
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    Michigan OKs Great Lakes water plan

    A compact designed to keep other regions or countries from tapping into the Great Lakes was approved Wednesday by the last of the eight states that surround the waterways. Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm, a Democrat, signed legislation approving the compact during a ceremony in Saugatuck, on Lake Michigan. A day earlier, Pennsylvania's Democratic Gov. Ed Rendell signed on.

    The pact still needs approval of Congress and the White House. Ontario and Quebec have adopted a similar plan that essentially outlaws diversions of Great Lakes water from its natural drainage basin. The Council of Great Lakes Governors spent four years negotiating the deal amid a global shortage of fresh water.
    http://www.usatoday.com/printedition...line10.art.htm
    Oddball
    Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?
    Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
    Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
    From Kelly's Heroes (1970)


    Are you sure you're not hurt ?
    No. Just some parts wake up faster than others.
    Broke parts take a little longer, though.
    From Electric Horseman (1979)

  22. #97
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    I'm unfamiliar with Huron, Michigan or Superior, have a fairly good familiarity with Erie, and an excellent familiarity with Ontario, having grown up near Oswego, NY.

    the difference between Lake Erie's lake effect and Ontario's? Ontario doesn't freeze over, keeping that warmer water open to the air all winter long!!

    it'd be interesting to write a paper on the snowfall's effect on population. I suspect that the region east of Ontario has always had and will always have a low population because of the snow.

  23. #98
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Lake Erie

    This is for your "I didn't know that!" file.....

    The southern shore of Lake Erie has one of the world's largest concentrations of heavy industry, manufacturing, and commerce. Giant automobile factories, huge steel mills, incredible port operations.....all fill the spaces in and around Lake Erie's southern shore.....from Monroe, MI, through Toledo and Cleveland, OH, and on to Buffalo, NY.

    On the northern shore.....Canada's Ontario Province has very few towns and cities. Port Dover (about 60,000) is probably the largest, owing much of its' success and vitality to the growing of tobacco. Most of the places along Lake Erie's northern shore are small fishing villages and a few resorts.

    Bear
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  24. #99
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    Surprised nobody has posted this yet -
    From the US Postal Service Great Lakes Dunes latest in their ecosystem stamp sheets.
    http://www.usps.com/communications/n...8/sr08_098.htm

    enlargement: http://www.usps.com/communications/n...nes_300dpi.jpg

    Pretty Cool.
    Oddball
    Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?
    Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
    Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
    From Kelly's Heroes (1970)


    Are you sure you're not hurt ?
    No. Just some parts wake up faster than others.
    Broke parts take a little longer, though.
    From Electric Horseman (1979)

  25. #100
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    St. Lawrence Seaway

    Happy Birthday to the Saint Lawrence Seaway !!!

    50 years ago, America's freshwater coast was opened to the world, via that super engineering feat, the Saint Lawrence Seaway. Back in 1959 the Seaway allowed ocean-going vessels to reach inland ports. That first year even brought the U.S. Navy (a destroyer and a submarine) to ports......including Toledo. As a young lad, I toured the sub.

    In the first 20 or so years, Toledo maximized its' connections with the world and established itself as one of the nation's largest ports. In addition to the coal and stone bulk cargoes, Toledo was the major port for the importing of Volkswagens and the major port for the exporting of Jeeps (a Toledo product). The ocean vessels in those days were much smaller......and could successfully navigate the Seaway. At one time, Toledo was the 9th largest port in the USA.

    But container shipping and the incredible upsizing of ocean vessels changed the game. Now, only 10% of the world's mechant fleet can slide into the skinny locks and canals that take the ships thousands of miles from the ocean all the way to Duluth, MN.

    There has been some discussion centered on widening the locks and canals. Unlikely for that to happen, though. The Seaway's future will be limited to smaller ships that focus on specialty cargoes. Toledo will get its' share of the ocean-going biz.......but that share will be small.

    And just in case you didn't know.....the ocean vessels that cruise the Great Lakes have a nasty habit of emptying their ballast waters into the lakes. Their gift to the lakes.....invasive species, such as the zebra mussel.

    Happy Birthday, Seaway !!!

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

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