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Thread: Freedom

  1. #1
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
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    Freedom

    Ok all, this has been rolling around in my head several days now. Im still all in a tizy about it so forgive me if i digress. and note i heard this news report at 5:30 in the AM on so i did not get the name of the reporter etc.

    Anyway-i hear this report that something like 40% of Americans think the Constitution needs to be changed, that we have TOO MUCH freedom!!!!

    Ok at this point boyfriend atty and i are looking at each other and the radio in utter amazement, we turn it up and pay rapt attention.

    The report was saying Americans felt the 1st amendment (one of my personal favs) is too open and that we should have less freedom of press and religon.

    EXCUSE ME DID I MISS SOMETHING? are not those 2 MAJOR tenants of the formation of our contry. At this point ill admit i take a more Jeffersonian view of the Consitution.

    Has the radical religous right finaly got THAT much influance? Are people THAT willing to turn off their brains and let someone tell them to buy into all "we are good they are bad" ideas?

    *gets visions of "1984"*

    Anyone else hear this report or care to comment?

    Pissed off free thinking PG
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

  2. #2
          Downtown's avatar
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    PG, I can't really believe those stats are right! Obviously there weren't any New Hampshirians in their sample.

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    Didn't hear the report, but I guess those are the 40% we'll find and put their backs to the wall when the revolution comes. Sounds like the damned mullet heads don't understand the first amendment. Now, I can understand not understanding Womens Sufferage, but the first amendment? C'mon people...

  4. #4
          Downtown's avatar
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    Originally posted by bturk
    Now, I can understand not understanding Womens Sufferage, but the first amendment? C'mon people...
    Oh christ brian.... you and Prudence are making me laugh too hard today. what is going on in your office - gas leak?

  5. #5
    Cyburbian prudence's avatar
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    Re: Freedom

    Originally posted by PlannerGirl

    At this point ill admit i take a more Jeffersonian view of the Consitution.[/B]
    Does this mean you want to procreate with a black slave??
    "Dear Prudence...won't you open up your eyes? "

  6. #6
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
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    hey the man was a slime and so is his thug narrow minded modern day family but he was a brilliant writer and thinker when he kept his pants button'd

    PG
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

  7. #7
    Cyburbian prudence's avatar
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    Originally posted by PlannerGirl
    hey the man was a slime and so is his thug narrow minded modern day family but he was a brilliant writer and thinker when he kept his pants button'd

    PG
    Fair enough.
    "Dear Prudence...won't you open up your eyes? "

  8. #8
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
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    Ok my god a *gulp* republican and democrat agree on something?

    stop the press

    Thanks Prudence
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

  9. #9
    Cyburbian prudence's avatar
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    Originally posted by PlannerGirl
    Ok my god a *gulp* republican and democrat agree on something?

    stop the press

    Thanks Prudence
    Sorry, thought we were talking about Clinton...j/k.

    It was a much simpler time then...Everybody didn't have a Camcroder, the paper was owned by your friends, and only you and your poker buddies could vote...

    I guess I am oldschool...
    "Dear Prudence...won't you open up your eyes? "

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Joe Iliff's avatar
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    Words and Actions

    I think (and I hope) that this is one of those things people say but don't do, that sounds good but if it ever really came up for action, wouldn't get very far.

    Thinking two-dimensionally, it can certainly be appealling to limit the rights (or privledges) of the extreme elements of society, since they seem to be used for destructive purposes rather than constructive ones. After all, we are all taught that the majority rules, so they get to do what they want.

    It's not until we look at things three-dimensionally that we really see how those rules would effect everyone in society. The freedoms we enjoy are not so much secured by the rule of the majority but the rights of the minority. Part of the social contract that holds free societies together is that majorities rule, but some rights, privledges, whatever belonging to the minority are sacroscant, and even a majority can not infringe upon them. That's why the charter of our society, the Constitution, requires the approval of a supermajority to be changed.

    Polls like this make me wonder if people are answering "Should whoever not do this or that" instead of the actual question "Should whoever have the right to do this or that." That is an important, yet subtle difference, too easily overlooked in a quick opinion poll.

    I hope that if we fleshed out someone's opinion more, and began to really discuss the consequences of such a proposal, the "pro" opinion number would begin to fall.
    JOE ILIFF
    ________________________________________________________________________
    Debt is normal . . . Be weird!
    Dave Ramsey

    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think."
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian statler's avatar
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    I think I remember reading somewhere that that survey consisted of a grand total of 1000 people. I'll look it up to see if I can find the source.
    "So, if a city has a personality, maybe it also has a soul. Maybe it dreams." -Gaiman
    ArchBoston

  12. #12
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    Thanks, Joe. I heard it on the news and asked the same question, "what were the actual questions in the survey?" Of course, the press loves to misinterpret facts, and surveys are far too often written with a bias.

    Do you think that the press should report classified information that would lead to the death of thousands of Americans? No? You don't support free speech!

  13. #13
    Look at what the current administration is doing with the constitution...I guess they are part of that 40 percent.

    The first step was Ari Fleischer telling Bill Mahr (and all Americans) "they need to watch what they say, watch what they do, and this is not a time for remarks like that; there never is" Whether you agree with what Mahr said or not, it is not the governments position to tell us what we can say or what opinions we can hold. The USA Patriot Act and the handling of the Jose Padilla case are just a few other examples of how our current administratiob views the constitution.

    I guess I would like to see how the questions were phrased. That may have had some effect on the outcome.
    "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are."

    - Homer Simpson

  14. #14
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    Originally posted by jtfortin
    Whether you agree with what Mahr said or not, it is not the governments position to tell us what we can say or what opinions we can hold.
    Damn straight, jtfortin! The gov'ments job is just to gimme my free surplus cheese and pay for momma's hernia op'rashun.
    WORD.

  15. #15
    Cyburbian Habanero's avatar
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    I'm on the line.. there are a few species I've met that I think shouldn't be allowed to speak. My idea: issue shoes to "intelligent" people only, that way, when someone walks up to you without shoes on, you'll be able to size them up right away. Perhaps enforce a "No Shoes, No Service" rule.. like a 7Eleven-
    I'd have to say that on the most part, the first amendment should always stand as it was written, but there are always going to be those 90%ers out there-
    When Jesus said "love your enemies", he probably didn't mean kill them.

  16. #16
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    I'd like to see "Freedom of Religion" clarified a bit.

    I want to be able to express my religious beliefs publicly, instead of being forbidden to do so on the off-chance that they don't mesh with someone elses...and vice versa.

    I don't want the prohibition against a government establishment of religion to mean that officials in public office cannot publicly pray to whoever they want to before their meetings or have bits of religious paraphenalia in their offices or workplaces. (I find it handy to know if someone has a similar world-view to my own, or if I am going to need to totally change my approach in dealing with an individual).

    The right to bear arms as a member of a well-regulated militia also needs to be clarified.

    Do people who aren't members of well regulated militias (army and national guard) have the constitutional right to bear arms too? Or is this a state by state kind of issue? (I don't care one way or another, but I cannot stand the concealed weapon laws here in Texas...the leg says you can carry a concealed weapon, with a permit, into most of the places I've worked, but not into their offices... Either they should be legal or illegal, and I'd prefer weapons be carried openly than be hidden)

    I don't want to surrender my rights, and I don't want others to surrender their's. But some bits of the Constitution that made perfect sense in the language of the 1780's appears to be totally misunderstood in the 2000's.

    Constitiutional amendments and clarifications may not be needed, but the guidance of the Supreme Court would really be helpful in clarifying some things...

    Too much blood has been spilt to secure our freedoms to simply let them be taken away in reaction to the aggression of a foriegn power or in blind subservience to our political leaders and corporate marketing ploys.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    I for one would like to see some "Cliff's Notes" for the Constitution developed by the Supreme Court. A definite legal interpretation of what it all means. Some guidelines to follow.

    As a life member of the NRA and self propsed "gun nut" I would especially like a definitive ruling on the 2nd. With the 2nd it seems that this interpretation has been given to the states. In PA I can carry a gun (concealed) anywhere I want except for a courtroom or school for the next 5 years (just renewed permit). But if I cross the bridge into Jersey I will be thrown in jail for the next 5 years and labeled a felon for the rest of my life.

    Hell, in PA you can carry a gun unconcealed without a permit anywhere except Philadelphia or Pittsburgh.

    As for the press, I think at times they get out of hand. They are so pressured to get the story out first, that often times they are dead wrong with their preliminary reports. I know this for a fact as on of my hobbies is reporting fire and police info to the local new stations (I'm a volunteer fireman, I always know what's burning down). They always take a story without all the info and run with it, making details up as they go along if necessary.

    OK, the next cube over just asked me if I was typing a thesis, I'm done for now.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Mike I disagree.

    The 2nd Ammendment is to ensure that a tyranical government can be overthrown by the people. Simple enough? I for one will not be bound by what the Supreme Court has to say about the 2nd ammendment. I could give you a long and yes, well-reasoned argument. But I will just say "Natural Rights" and let the subject rest.

    It is my duty to my fellow citizens to remain armed. I know that scares the shit out of some of you, sorry.

  19. #19
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    I know what the reasoning is behind the 2nd and I am in full support of it. I was just trying to illustrate the fact the "constitutional" rights are not equal across the 50 states.

    Sorry if I wasn't clear.

    And yes it is your duty to remain armed. Anyone who disagrees with the fact should read the controversial book "The Turner Diaries." It gives a very good picture of what a world without an armed public could become.

    DISCLAIMER: I in no way agree with the views and opinions expressed in the book "The Turner Diaries."

  20. #20
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    Is it just me, or is anyone else having a difficult time taking Mike DeVuono seriously while he uses the fururama-hooker avatar?


  21. #21
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
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    yup

    looks silly as hell
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

  22. #22
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Concur

    Originally posted by Mike DeVuono
    "The Turner Diaries." It gives a very good picture of what a world without an armed public could become.

    DISCLAIMER: I in no way agree with the views and opinions expressed in the book "The Turner Diaries."
    Simply studing the histories of disarmed peoples should do it.

    You are right the Turner Diaries is racist crap surrounding a valuable lesson. If the big day comes I want Jews, Women, Democrats, Lesbians and so on and members all races along side me. They were there in Desert Storm with me and you and they will be there in future conflicts. It ain't about race. Its about freedom.

    PS I find Metal-clad spandex atired blonde whores from the future somewhat distracting also. Then again not everyone likes Banditios either.

  23. #23
          Downtown's avatar
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    we need to do a poll on mike's avatar. i cast my lot against the futuristic hoochie.

  24. #24
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    On second thought

    I never said distracting was "bad"

  25. #25
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    The poll is ready


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