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Thread: Why Seattle is already in Hell

  1. #1
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Why Seattle is already in Hell

    http://www.komotv.com/stories/38771.htm

    "I called them (from a payphone) and they did not come until about 15 minutes later," one relative who was there and witnessed everything told us. "You're sure about that?" we asked. "Positive," she said.
    Now this one is worse than the solders being attacked while they were at home. Now the police are dragging their feet. Come on, they have video and no one has been arrested and charged.

    What are your thoughts on this?
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  2. #2
    Cyburbian statler's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    http://www.komotv.com/stories/38771.htm



    Now this one is worse than the solders being attacked while they were at home. Now the police are dragging their feet. Come on, they have video and no one has been arrested and charged.

    What are your thoughts on this?
    Do you think they were attacked because they were soilders or do you think they were victims who happened to be soilders?
    "So, if a city has a personality, maybe it also has a soul. Maybe it dreams." -Gaiman
    ArchBoston

  3. #3
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by statler
    Do you think they were attacked because they were soilders or do you think they were victims who happened to be soilders?
    I hear that they tryed to help someone else, and that they started to get attacked, one mentioned that he was a soilder and then all heck hit the fan and everyone ganged up on them knowing what they were doing.

    but then again, that is just what I hear.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  4. #4

    It is disturbing.

    You can see the whole attack on CBSNEWS.com. It's pretty grusome. What is even more disturbing than this gang of thugs beating the beejusus out of these two guys is that people who did absolutely NOTHING. This is in downtown Seattle with bumper to bumper traffic and not a one of them got out of their stinking cars to help.
    Forechecking is overrated.

  5. #5
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    Wow. It reminds me of Kitty Genovese.

    Was there voices on tape of Seinfeldesque characters making wise cracks about the guys getting beaten?

  6. #6
    Cyburbian circusoflife's avatar
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    It's like what is happening to our world at large - the tragedy of the commons.
    - Beware more of the man in the fancy cloak, than the one in tattered clothing -

  7. #7
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    That is awful. That is just plenty more reason to hate the Left Coast...with a vengance.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  8. #8
    Cyburbian iamme's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    That is awful. That is just plenty more reason to hate the Left Coast...with a vengance.
    [rant] Yes, that must be it. Those d**n liberal commies and their coddling of the degenerates of society. If only we would have some kind of war on crime, then a war on drugs, and then build huge prisons to house those that we have rightfully rounded up. Oh wait, we did that already. This event MUST show that only larger prisons will solve the problem.

    If only those closet Mayday celebrating dis-patriots would stand aside and let us do the job right, we wouldn't be in this mess....(wait - i think i'm getting off topic - i can't tell if i'm speaking of Iraq, crime, or social security) [rant]

  9. #9
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by iamme
    [rant] Yes, that must be it. Those d**n liberal commies and their coddling of the degenerates of society. If only we would have some kind of war on crime, then a war on drugs, and then build huge prisons to house those that we have rightfully rounded up. Oh wait, we did that already. This event MUST show that only larger prisons will solve the problem.

    If only those closet Mayday celebrating dis-patriots would stand aside and let us do the job right, we wouldn't be in this mess....(wait - i think i'm getting off topic - i can't tell if i'm speaking of Iraq, crime, or social security) [rant]
    You're absolutely right, we do need more prisons...and no, i'm not being sarcastic. You do the crime, you do the time. We also need to let trained citizens arm and defend themselves, because in many cities the police are unreliable and/or corrupt. You don't solve the problem by letting this sh!t continue to happen like it's nothing. It's time to take the trash out...again. And it's time to let the law-abiding citizens take back their communities...not just from the criminals, but from big government.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  10. #10
    Cyburbian statler's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    We also need to let trained citizens arm and defend themselves, because in many cities the police are unreliable and/or corrupt. You don't solve the problem by letting this sh!t continue to happen like it's nothing. It's time to take the trash out...again. And it's time to let the law-abiding citizens take back their communities...not just from the criminals, but from big government.
    Have you ever met these citizens you want to arm? And you trust them to decide who is a criminal? You'll have folks arresting and shooting each other over house colors and fence heights! And who do you expect to train these people? And using what guidelines? The government? Congratulations, you now have a volunteer police force complete with the same problems as the old paid force (too much power) and you've solved nothing.
    "So, if a city has a personality, maybe it also has a soul. Maybe it dreams." -Gaiman
    ArchBoston

  11. #11
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    iamme,
    I am curious. What political. legal, or social policies those on the left would offer to make our communities more safe? I know that when I look at such an expression of violence upon innocents certain legal solutions come to my mind. Perhaps we have common ground. What, if any policy or legal solutions would you offer?

    [FLAME FREE REPLIES BY ME GUARENTEED]

  12. #12
    Cyburbian iamme's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    iamme,
    I know that when I look at such an expression of violence upon innocents certain legal solutions come to my mind. Perhaps we have common ground. What, if any policy or legal solutions would you offer?
    I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

  13. #13
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    iamme,
    I am curious. What political. legal, or social policies those on the left would offer to make our communities more safe? I know that when I look at such an expression of violence upon innocents certain legal solutions come to my mind. Perhaps we have common ground. What, if any policy or legal solutions would you offer?

    [FLAME FREE REPLIES BY ME GUARENTEED]
    Okay, I'll bite. You know I hate fighting, so I am not looking for a fight. In fact, earlier, I refrained from noting that the rage and hatred expressed by some folks in this thread is no different, really, from the reactions of the people who "inspired" this thread: the folks who beat the crap out of a couple of people in public. I think there is a time and place for using force -- and obviously the police needed to step in forcefully in this instance and it is a travesty that it does not appear that they did. However, when considering how to prevent this type of thing from happening again, I think jail and other punative measures should be the last resort, not our first priority. Unfortunately, a lot of people react with anger and a desire to force others to behave better and I do not think that really works to build a peaceful society. When you invest too much of your effort and focus in those areas, you wind up with a dictatorial police state. I don't think that is a good thing.

    I think the main thing we need to do is reverse decades of anti-family and especially anti-father policies. Welfare actively discourages young couples from marrying. It pushes out many important values with the power and lure of the almighty dollar and I think our nation as a whole is far worse off because of it. We also have a lot of work-related policies which encourage men to focus primarily on bringing home the bacon, often at the expense of time with their kids. Those same policies encourage women to work, many of whom would rather be home with their kids but do not feel they can afford to do so.

    In short, yes, lock up the thugs that did this but if you really want to cure society without creating a police-state, strengthen the family and give medical benefits and the like back to workers. Jobs should primarily serve the needs of human beings, not the needs of the corporation. Corporations should exist for the benefit of humans, not the other way around. There will always be some need for a police force but strengthening the police force will not cure these problems. The underlying social issues need to be addressed if you want to see real improvements.

    My half a cent worth.

  14. #14
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by iamme
    I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
    Without resorting to playground rules and name calling. Let me restate; I ask you first. Its not really much of a question where most conservative thinkers are positioned in regards to how to deal with thuggery. I'm quite unclear as to where our more freethinking friends are when it comes to fighting violent crime. Post an answer and I'll outline my position in similar detail.



    BTW - Thank you Michele. Nice answer.

  15. #15
    Cyburbian iamme's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by el Guapo
    Its not really much of a question where most conservative thinkers are positioned in regards to how to deal with thuggery. I'm quite unclear as to where our more freethinking friends are when it comes to fighting violent crime. Post an answer and I'll outline my position in similar detail.
    If I was asking about most conservative thinkers, I would have consulted my good friend Google. I would advise the same if you desire the opinions of a few liberals.

    I asked about your beliefs and I now offer up the floor for some of your ideas. As I said, I will certainly reciprocate.

  16. #16
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    Okay, I'll bite. You know I hate fighting, so I am not looking for a fight. In fact, earlier, I refrained from noting that the rage and hatred expressed by some folks in this thread is no different, really, from the reactions of the people who "inspired" this thread: the folks who beat the crap out of a couple of people in public. I think there is a time and place for using force -- and obviously the police needed to step in forcefully in this instance and it is a travesty that it does not appear that they did. However, when considering how to prevent this type of thing from happening again, I think jail and other punative measures should be the last resort, not our first priority. Unfortunately, a lot of people react with anger and a desire to force others to behave better and I do not think that really works to build a peaceful society. When you invest too much of your effort and focus in those areas, you wind up with a dictatorial police state. I don't think that is a good thing.

    I think the main thing we need to do is reverse decades of anti-family and especially anti-father policies. Welfare actively discourages young couples from marrying. It pushes out many important values with the power and lure of the almighty dollar and I think our nation as a whole is far worse off because of it. We also have a lot of work-related policies which encourage men to focus primarily on bringing home the bacon, often at the expense of time with their kids. Those same policies encourage women to work, many of whom would rather be home with their kids but do not feel they can afford to do so.

    In short, yes, lock up the thugs that did this but if you really want to cure society without creating a police-state, strengthen the family and give medical benefits and the like back to workers. Jobs should primarily serve the needs of human beings, not the needs of the corporation. Corporations should exist for the benefit of humans, not the other way around. There will always be some need for a police force but strengthening the police force will not cure these problems. The underlying social issues need to be addressed if you want to see real improvements.

    My half a cent worth.
    Yes, most definitely we need to look at the underlying long-term problems and those possible solutions. Everything you mentioned in that area is great!!

    As far as the police force, I agree that bigger is not better...I think I went a little overboard with my prison rant. I think citizens need to gather together and clean up their neighborhoods, specifically if the gov't is not going to do so. And they should be allowed to protect themselves from robbers, drug lords, and rapists. Rather than be held at the mercy of a 10 minute response time.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  17. #17
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by iamme
    If I was asking about most conservative thinkers, I would have consulted my good friend Google. I would advise the same if you desire the opinions of a few liberals.

    I asked about your beliefs and I now offer up the floor for some of your ideas. As I said, I will certainly reciprocate.

    I've lost my interest. Game over.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    Yes, most definitely we need to look at the underlying long-term problems and those possible solutions. Everything you mentioned in that area is great!!

    As far as the police force, I agree that bigger is not better...I think I went a little overboard with my prison rant. I think citizens need to gather together and clean up their neighborhoods, specifically if the gov't is not going to do so. And they should be allowed to protect themselves from robbers, drug lords, and rapists. Rather than be held at the mercy of a 10 minute response time.
    Government cannot create a sense of community. You cannot legislate something like that. It is based on interpersonal relationships. Government can help foster the right climate for community to occur or government can do many things to undermine the ability of folks to create a community, but at its root, you cannot legislate a sense of community into being. And that sense of community -- of belonging and of accountability to people who care about your welfare -- is lacking to a significant degree in America today. I think that when folks lament the decline of small town America and things like that, they are really expressing mourning for a loss of sense of community, of knowing that other folks care about you and you care about them without being so in your face as to control every detail of your life.

    One example I can give you: In the book "The Tipping Point", they noted that when the number of college educated professionals living in a neighborhood dropped below a certain threshold, crime skyrocketed. I think the threshold is 6%. They found that anything from that thershold up to 40% of the residents being college educated professionals had a similar impact on the neighborhood of stabilizing it. So it could drop from 40% to 20% without any significant impact. But dropping from 6% to 4% caused all hell to break loose.

    Just food for thought.

  19. #19
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    Government cannot create a sense of community. You cannot legislate something like that. It is based on interpersonal relationships. Government can help foster the right climate for community to occur or government can do many things to undermine the ability of folks to create a community, but at its root, you cannot legislate a sense of community into being. And that sense of community -- of belonging and of accountability to people who care about your welfare -- is lacking to a significant degree in America today. I think that when folks lament the decline of small town America and things like that, they are really expressing mourning for a loss of sense of community, of knowing that other folks care about you and you care about them without being so in your face as to control every detail of your life.

    One example I can give you: In the book "The Tipping Point", they noted that when the number of college educated professionals living in a neighborhood dropped below a certain threshold, crime skyrocketed. I think the threshold is 6%. They found that anything from that thershold up to 40% of the residents being college educated professionals had a similar impact on the neighborhood of stabilizing it. So it could drop from 40% to 20% without any significant impact. But dropping from 6% to 4% caused all hell to break loose.

    Just food for thought.
    No, of course, the governments can't force citizens to take control of their community. They just need to ALLOW it to happen, to a certain degree.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  20. #20
    Cyburbian iamme's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    Yes, most definitely we need to look at the underlying long-term problems and those possible solutions. Everything you mentioned in that area is great!!

    As far as the police force, I agree that bigger is not better...I think I went a little overboard with my prison rant. I think citizens need to gather together and clean up their neighborhoods, specifically if the gov't is not going to do so. And they should be allowed to protect themselves from robbers, drug lords, and rapists. Rather than be held at the mercy of a 10 minute response time.
    I can't say that I agree with your ideas about citizens and guns. I do share some of your sentiments about many cities' police force. In too many cases I have heard cops tell me of how they screw off, strategically pad their checks with overtime, and otherwise game the system for their personal benefit. Then I hear about how the department is under-staffed and crime is up. What do you believe, what does anybody? As you and Michele Zone have said, it is not about just one element of the equation, it is never just that easy.

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