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Thread: Bicycle sales boom in US amid rising gas prices

  1. #51
    Cyburbian
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    Anybody who both bikes and drives knows which group is worse - and it's not drivers (unless you think driving 5 mph over the limit is equally bad to flat-out running a stop sign or red light, i.e., blowing through without slowing down).

    But I just thought of a way we can all get together on this. When I drive, I drive a Prius ... <snip>

    Don't complain - y'all are much worse. And you forcing me to play by the same rules as other motorists is a sucker's game. Cities need to be remade so that far more people drive hybrids, and so, I'm justified in breaking the law here.
    Cars are worse. Kinetic energy is mass times velocity squared- don't forget to multiply every car's infraction by that factor. As for the Prius, there's no question that people ought to be rewarded when they pass less external cost onto the environment - but after that your common sense fails. And common sense supersedes law. Slavery, segregation and colonialism are extreme examples of injustice, but the comparison still holds - and those institutions were all protected by almighty law in their time. Innocent people are KILLED by cars EVERY DAY. Cars put POISON in the air. And that's only the tip of the iceberg. Policymakers who defend the status quo using an excuse like lawbreaking cyclists sound more like crybaby eight-year-olds than leaders - they ought to be voted out in favor of people with maturity and vision. I think you have an unhealthy obsession with rules, authority and punishment.

  2. #52

    Registered
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    Solano County, California
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    Quote Originally posted by Mountain Magic
    Cars are worse. Kinetic energy is mass times velocity squared- don't forget to multiply every car's infraction by that factor. As for the Prius, there's no question that people ought to be rewarded when they pass less external cost onto the environment - but after that your common sense fails. And common sense supersedes law. Slavery, segregation and colonialism are extreme examples of injustice, but the comparison still holds - and those institutions were all protected by almighty law in their time. Innocent people are KILLED by cars EVERY DAY. Cars put POISON in the air. And that's only the tip of the iceberg. Policymakers who defend the status quo using an excuse like lawbreaking cyclists sound more like crybaby eight-year-olds than leaders - they ought to be voted out in favor of people with maturity and vision. I think you have an unhealthy obsession with rules, authority and punishment.
    Thank you, MM (that Asheville mountain air leads to clarity of thought! I was just in your area-Knoxville-at the beginning of last month)

    As you point out, scofflaw activities by drivers have a much more significant impact on the environment-and victims-than cyclists (crazy bicycle messengers aside).

    I would throw in that the daily environmental externalities of operating a Prius are certainly less than, say, a large SUV (or my Subaru ), but the Prius still represents an incredible amount of embedded energy (and pollution). Those batteries, for example, are pretty toxic. Plus, I'm not an engineer, but are the batteries fully recyclable? If not, you're talking about another environmental cost.

    Again, nobody is saying: "cyclists should blithely blow through major signalized intersections, pissing everyone off." I don't do that-that would be foolish and at 42, I no longer consider myself immortal. Where I am objecting is the hypocrisy of drivers who are everyday violating rules and regulations (I see speed limits exceeded by far more than 5 mph everyday-including by myself ) suddenly going all German (sorry, Germans) on law obedience.

  3. #53
    Cyburbian jread's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Mountain Magic
    As for the Prius, there's no question that people ought to be rewarded when they pass less external cost onto the environment
    We're actually working on that: http://www.austinenergy.com/About%20...cles/index.htm
    "I don't suffer from insanity... I enjoy every single minute of it!"

  4. #54
    Joe Breezer has a range of city bikes that use the Shimano Nexus internal gears and are fully setup for sensible riding.

    See more at www-dot-breezerbikes-dot-com

  5. #55

    Grow up

    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    Where I am objecting is the hypocrisy of drivers who are everyday violating rules and regulations (I see speed limits exceeded by far more than 5 mph everyday-including by myself ) suddenly going all German (sorry, Germans) on law obedience.
    To equate minor speeding with disobedience of right-of-way control devices is to completely lose any claim to objectivity here. Cars running stop signs are clearly more of a threat to others than cars going 5 over the limit. Likewise, cyclists running stop signs are more of a threat to other road users than are speeding cars.

    One thing you'll observe, if you're open-minded, is that cars "run" red lights, but almost all of the time it's of a light that just turned red. Some people tag this "running the orange". While bad (and underenforced, in my opinion), this is clearly not as bad as blasting through the middle of a red light.

    Likewise, most cars don't come to a complete stop at a stop sign, unless cross-traffic is there. The typical motorist comes to a 'rolling stop', i.e., slower than the average pedestrian's speed.

    Yet, when this subject comes up, entitlement-mentality cyclists claim that because some large minority of motorists do both of the above, that THEY should be allowed to run a stop sign (without even slowing down) or blast through the middle of a red light.

    I don't "go all German" on it. When I bike, I do a rolling stop, the same as I do in my car (if conditions permit). The key here is that I don't think that because I decided to ride my bike (to the nursery yesterday to buy seeds) instead of driving my car, that I'm entitled to all of the sudden disobey a bunch of traffic laws which I have to obey when I drive. That's freakin' insane.

    Here's a hint: I don't care that you think you're saving the environment when you bike. When I bike, I obey the law (to the extent stated above), and I expect you to do the same. Cyclists today are such a small minority in the US that we essentially rely on the goodwill of motorists for our own safety, and you guys are pissing all of that away with your childish and selfish antics.

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally posted by doinky
    Yet, when this subject comes up, entitlement-mentality cyclists claim that because some large minority of motorists do both of the above, that THEY should be allowed to run a stop sign (without even slowing down) or blast through the middle of a red light.
    No. We are simply saying that cyclists as a class should not be penalized because an irresponsible, crazy minority, some of the time, violate the law. We are merely asking to be treated the same as drivers.

    I don't hear you arguing "That soccer mom blew through a stop sign, so she deserves to be absolutely flattened by that semi, and all road and highway construction stopped."

    You accuse us of being "sociopaths." Amazing. Absolutely amazing.

    I don't "go all German" on it. When I bike, I do a rolling stop, the same as I do in my car (if conditions permit). The key here is that I don't think that because I decided to ride my bike (to the nursery yesterday to buy seeds) instead of driving my car, that I'm entitled to all of the sudden disobey a bunch of traffic laws which I have to obey when I drive. That's freakin' insane.
    You mean all this time you knew that you, too, were a lawbreaker?

    What is the point of this pissing match, then? What you're doing is no different that what any of us were talking about. Pausing through minor stopsigns with no through-traffic. Nobody here is claiming a right to blaze through a signalized intersection.

  7. #57
    Cyburbian
    Registered
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    Asheville, NC
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    Forget it, BKM - he's just a troll, let's stop feeding the trolls. He's got about six people on this thread disagreeing with him - and he's trying to paint us as the lunatic fringe - give me a break. You also have to wonder about the credibility of his "buddy from Austin" with 1 (ONE) post to his name who jumped in at just the right time to support his claim to being a cycling advocate - yeah right.

    Anyhow - I hope you enjoyed your visit to beautiful southern Appalachia!

    -MM

  8. #58

    Registered
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    Quote Originally posted by Mountain Magic
    Forget it, BKM - he's just a troll, let's stop feeding the trolls. He's got about six people on this thread disagreeing with him - and he's trying to paint us as the lunatic fringe - give me a break. You also have to wonder about the credibility of his "buddy from Austin" with 1 (ONE) post to his name who jumped in at just the right time to support his claim to being a cycling advocate - yeah right.

    Anyhow - I hope you enjoyed your visit to beautiful southern Appalachia!

    -MM
    I know. Don't know why I'm so argumentative. I even can do that in real life, too

    Off-topic:
    I think I remember liking Asheville more than Knoxville.

    Downtown Knoxville, though, has a great urban fabric/form. Narrow streets, a decent streetwall, Market Square. It looks like it''s slowly coming alive-multiple lofts are under construction. Then, Sequoyah Hills has to be one of the more beautiful pre-war suburbs. It's just the commercial strips in Knoxville, and much of the rest of the city....seems really primitive and kinda, well, ugly. It's really amazing how LITTLE the city has changed in 15 years (superficial impressions). Nice setting, though. It was a great whirlwind trip. Can't take eastern humidity anymore. Next trip will bge late October.

  9. #59
    Cyburbian
    Registered
    Dec 2004
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    Asheville, NC
    Posts
    50
    I haven't been to Knoxville (outside the Greyhound station ) - guess I'll have to go check it out one of these days. I was reading about Chattanooga recently, how they made some good planning decisions a decade or two ago, and the downtown is slowly coming back as a result - that place is on my list too.

    Asheville is a great city, with a lively downtown, thriving arts scene, and lots of beautiful Art Deco architecture. Not that we don't have our share of ugly strip malls and still a long way from sustainable transport and land use. And the city is about to plunk down 20 million bucks for a new parking garage downtown -sure wish they'd put the money into bike paths or buses instead. Between the hills and the lack of bike facilities, it's not an easy city to get around on a cycle, but motorists are overall pretty respectful, and I'm definitely seeing more bikes on the streets since gas hit 3 bucks. It's a good feeling when other cyclists are out battling the strip mall traffic with you

  10. #60
    Quote Originally posted by Mountain Magic
    Forget it, BKM - he's just a troll, let's stop feeding the trolls. He's got about six people on this thread disagreeing with him - and he's trying to paint us as the lunatic fringe - give me a break. You also have to wonder about the credibility of his "buddy from Austin" with 1 (ONE) post to his name who jumped in at just the right time to support his claim to being a cycling advocate - yeah right.

    Anyhow - I hope you enjoyed your visit to beautiful southern Appalachia!

    -MM
    OK, jerk, here's a clue: Click on my profile, go to my website. Or, if you can't handle that much work:

    http://bicycleaustin.info/people.html

    "Mike Dahmus"

    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    No. We are simply saying that cyclists as a class should not be penalized because an irresponsible, crazy minority, some of the time, violate the law. We are merely asking to be treated the same as drivers.

    I don't hear you arguing "That soccer mom blew through a stop sign, so she deserves to be absolutely flattened by that semi, and all road and highway construction stopped."
    And nor am I the one claiming that cyclists deserve to be killed or deserve to have bicycle facility construction stopped because jerks like you blow stop signs and red lights.

    HOWEVER, there ARE people who DO say that (the latter, not the former), and they ARE in a position to often-times interfere with the construction of bicycle facilities.

    Moderator note:

    Thread closed
    Last edited by Tranplanner; 11 Oct 2005 at 4:37 PM.

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