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Thread: Monday October 31, 2005 noontime (Holiday History) question from Michaelskis

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    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Monday October 31, 2005 noontime (Holiday History) question from Michaelskis

    Well, today is Halloween, and kids are all excited for the free candy. Many of them don’t care that it is the end of summer and New Year according to the Irish Celtics in 5th Century BC. Then the Catholic Church Holiday is on November 1st for all saints day.

    How important is the history of many of these Holidays to you?

    For more information on the history of Halloween, Click here.
    Last edited by michaelskis; 31 Oct 2005 at 12:19 PM.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

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    Cyburbian Big Owl's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    Well, today is Halloween, and kids are all excited for the free candy. Many of them don’t care that it is the end of summer and New Year according to the Irish Celtics in 5th Century BC. Then the Catholic Church Holiday is on November 1st for all saints day.

    How important is the history of many of these Holiday’s to you?

    For more information on the history of Halloween, Click here.

    Well for me as a Lutheran, Martin Luther posting 95 theses on Wittenberg church thus sparking the Protestant Reformation is significant which happened on this day in 1517. Which i celebrated last night by eating a Ruben Sandwich and watching the Movie "Luther". Which "Reformation day" wasn't mentioned and so i would say little; however at my Church we celebrate all saints sunday by remember all member who passed away during the prior year it is a neat service. I don't know if the context is different on the Catholic side of the fence.

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    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Big Owl
    Well for me as a Lutheran, Martin Luther posting 95 theses on Wittenberg church thus sparking the Protestant Reformation is significant which happened on this day in 1517. Which i celebrated last night by eating a Ruben Sandwich and watching the Movie "Luther". Which "Reformation day" wasn't mentioned and so i would say little; however at my Church we celebrate all saints sunday by remember all member who passed away during the prior year it is a neat service. I don't know if the context is different on the Catholic side of the fence.
    It is... Luther’s ideas are more or less the ideas behind Vatican II.

    Do you think that someday people will forget the history behind Thanksgiving, 4th of July, or similar holidays?
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

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    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    taboo

    just remember, luther asked for the sacraments on his deathbed - my best friend is a Lutheran and we have this debate constantly as he is always trying to recruit me from catholicism - lol

    but in answer to the original question - i think Halloween already has left what it was supposed to be for - but there is always some media human interest story that gets out there to remind us - and i do try to get to church on the 1st

    halloween i think is alot bigger as a holiday than it was when i was a kid (i'm 41) - our intent was to fill a contractor bag with candy and not get too much shaving cream or silly string on my head from fights in the street

    now it's decorations, cards - neighborhoods that go nuts decorating and need a home equity line for the candy they have to buy - it's nuts!

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    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    Halloween has largely lost its historical significance. Even when I was a kid, it was nothing more than an excuse to carve a pumpkin and sucker the neighbors out of some candy.

    I can't believe how crazy people have gotten with Halloween decorating. The people across the street from us spent a whole day putting out decorations; we put some pumkins next to the mailbox and called it a day. Some people are shelling out $200 so little Johnny can have the "cool" costume. It's absolutely re-damn-diculous!

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

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    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by luckless pedestrian
    just remember, luther asked for the sacraments on his deathbed - my best friend is a Lutheran and we have this debate constantly as he is always trying to recruit me from catholicism - lol
    That's just like whenever I hear a firebrand Evangelical Protestant railing against the consumption of alcohol and I bring up the fact that Luther himself often extolled the virtues of good beer.

    Quote Originally posted by luckless pedestrian
    but in answer to the original question - i think Halloween already has left what it was supposed to be for - but there is always some media human interest story that gets out there to remind us - and i do try to get to church on the 1st

    halloween i think is alot bigger as a holiday than it was when i was a kid (i'm 41) - our intent was to fill a contractor bag with candy and not get too much shaving cream or silly string on my head from fights in the street

    now it's decorations, cards - neighborhoods that go nuts decorating and need a home equity line for the candy they have to buy - it's nuts!
    I like how the Mexicans spend the night partying at the cemetery, celebrating the lives of their ancestors 'Dia de los muertes' 'Day of the dead'.

    I kind of long for the innocent times of ringing doorbells and running away, trying to see who can get the heaviest loot haul, etc, too. It so often feels like we adults have conspired to take all of the fun out of a fun holiday.... <sigh...>

    Mike

  7. #7
    I agree that Halloween has lost its historic significance. Many religious holidays have taken on a secular meaning and trying to teach your children the true meaning of the holidays is becoming increasingly difficult.

    Orignally posted by Suburb Repairman
    Some people are shelling out $200 so little Johnny can have the "cool" costume. It's absolutely re-damn-diculous!
    I read an article last year that said Halloween is second in consumer holiday spending only to Christmas.

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    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Mskis, your link isn't working.
    I think it's generally known that many Christian holidays were originally pagan holidays and the early christian church co-opted them in order to erase the holidays' pagan significance. I'll defer to Corrugus or DoD deliver the definitive treatise on this particular area of history. Incidently, there is nothing particularly unique about the practice of replacing one holiday with another. There are many different examples of this throughout many different cultures throughout the course of human history as one government or religion prevails over a geographic region.

    Seems to me that holidays fall under three very broad categories:

    1. Religious holidays - this would include days like Xmas, Halloween, Ramadan, or Rosh Hashana. This would also include numerous and sundry harvest festivals and calendrical events found in every culture on earth.

    2. Commercial holidays - holidays ultimately serving a commercial purpose. Folks are quick to cite 'Hallmark' holidays, such as 'sweetest day', 'secretary day', 'Boss' day', but this would only be of fairly recent vintage. Bank holidays would be another example. (arguable Christmas has fallen into this camp as well)

    3. Governmental holidays - includes many nations' various independence days, various leaders' birthdays, celebrations of battles and peaces. Also includes some fairly well cloaked holidays such as Columbus Day or Thanksgiving.

    I wanted to make mention of one other specific pagan holiday and that is the festival of Saturnalia. Saturnalia was a big deal in pagan Rome and one of the ways it was observed was through ritual role reversal. On this one day of the year masters would wait on their slaves/servants and the servants would issue 'orders' to their masters. The tradition continues in some form today in the British armed forces. On Christmas day the officers serve the enlisted ranks dinner and the youngest (lowest ranking) member of the command sits in the presiding seat at the feast.
    Anywho, I thought it might be fun and interesting if Cyburbia observed its own 'Saturnalia' (pick a day - say, December 6), where roles would be reversed. BKM, might for instance engage in a thread extolling the virtues of a strong American military interventionist policy and illinoisplanner might explain how unfortunate it is that our democracy does not embrace more egalitarian economic practices. We could look forward to Mskis spouting off about the most effective ways to spend one's money quickly and MZ would give terse, succinct responses to involved questions. No doubt ZG and RJ would want to spend some time pontificating/debating contentious politcal issues. Heck, even Stan might be tempted to discuss ways to increase office efficiency/output. I think you get the idea of how it would work......

    Sorry to hijack the thread but does that sound like it might be fun?
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

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    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920
    That's just like whenever I hear a firebrand Evangelical Protestant railing against the consumption of alcohol and I bring up the fact that Luther himself often extolled the virtues of good beer.


    I like how the Mexicans spend the night partying at the cemetery, celebrating the lives of their ancestors 'Dia de los muertes' 'Day of the dead'.

    I kind of long for the innocent times of ringing doorbells and running away, trying to see who can get the heaviest loot haul, etc, too. It so often feels like we adults have conspired to take all of the fun out of a fun holiday.... <sigh...>

    Mike
    LOl - i also remind them that Jesus' first miracle was upgrading the wine at a wedding - i mean, really - wth, right?

    i grew up in an irish family and yeah i used to look forward to a death in the family as a kid because the parties were great

    and yes, holidays get screwed up for kids when we adults get involved -

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    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister
    No doubt ZG and RJ would want to spend some time pontificating/debating contentious politcal issues.
    hohoho... That would be quite a reversal from our usual discussions.

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    NIMBY asshatterer Plus Richmond Jake's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister
    .....No doubt ZG and RJ would want to spend some time pontificating/debating contentious politcal issues. ....
    That's a frightening thought, given it's Halloween. It could turn ugly....or .... maybe not. I could be wrong.

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