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Thread: Florida concurrency

  1. #1
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
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    Florida concurrency

    Here's a question for fellow FL planners: To what degree does your jurisdiction consider concurrency when making land development decisions? Do you have systems of analysis to determine level of service standards and how they are met?

    While I think the Florida Growth Management system plays an important role in helping the public, planners, and politicians evaluate development decisions, my experience has been that concurrency is not a priority of local governments. I'd be interested in some other perspectives on this though.

  2. #2
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    I don't think concurrency works at all. We've had one project "delayed" in the last 10 years due to concurrency issues. We should have had a lot more denied. Our LOS standards are too liberal, but DCA's signed off on them...

  3. #3
    NIMBY asshatterer Plus Richmond Jake's avatar
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    I have to disagree with ZG. Up here in the panhandle, DCA has been kicking our ass on concurrency the last couple rounds....they're pissing all over us now. In fact, they found us in non-compliance on one of the last approval amendments we sent them. We didn't think it was that bad of a proposal.

    And you're right, concurrency is not a big priority for our elected officials but with the changes in the growth management act, they have no choice now. They need to wake up and pay attention. I think it's a good thing. Full employment act for RJ.

  4. #4
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by RichmondJake
    I have to disagree with ZG. Up here in the panhandle, DCA has been kicking our ass on concurrency the last couple rounds....they're pissing all over us now. In fact, they found us in non-compliance on one of the last approval amendments we sent them. We didn't think it was that bad of a proposal.
    I can't understand how DCA operates for the life of me. Seems like they let some jurisdictions have a free pass while they pick on others.

  5. #5
    NIMBY asshatterer Plus Richmond Jake's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller
    I can't understand how DCA operates for the life of me. Seems like they let some jurisdictions have a free pass while they pick on others.
    Dude, if you want to hear a recent DCA story, PM me and I'll give you the details. You won't believe it.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian solarstar's avatar
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    You don't want to get me started on DCA. Concurrency has been pretty much a non-issue here, but SB 360 is changing that fast. I'm sure that the water management districts will still feel that every project meets water concurrency (sigh), but we're going to have some huge problems showing traffic and school concurrency. Fortunately, we have a year or so to get standards in place so until then it is just status quo...

  7. #7
    Cyburbian The One's avatar
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    Broward....

    Growth management in terms of sprawl is a non issue in Broward, mostly in Dade and its too late for Palm Beach..... It seems to me that if your in an area with plenty of sprawl left, concurrency will just promote that sprawl......If a developer wants to build on the cheap land 20 miles from the city center and the County says build the sewer lines, water lines, roads and other infrastructure (and oh by the way you'll get reimbursed as others fill in property between you and the city...), this just seems to create the perfect storm for sprawl.....Anyone that wants to argue against this point, come down and visit Broward, Dade and Palm Beach.....and I suspect Jacksonville, Tampa (seen it at work here), Orlando........on and on and on.....not sure about the other cities up north.....

    Right now, from what I can tell, concurrency in Broward County is just making sure that water/sewer lines are upsized for development of infill and mass transit is a much bigger issue with fees and all.....Few or no roads are required because the right-of-way doesn't exist and large areas of infill are exempted..... The School Board is taking the "voluntary" agreements for payment of a "impact" fee, which drives the price of a new townhome/condo through the roof......

    Time to scrap the old notions of growth management and seek the more cooperative/guided growth methods.....I think anyway....
    Skilled Adoxographer

  8. #8
    Cyburbian Rumpy Tunanator's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller
    I can't understand how DCA operates for the life of me. Seems like they let some jurisdictions have a free pass while they pick on others.
    Yep, that's how they do it. Although I have been ripping on them lately about their inconsistancy. I am trying to get every municipality on board. Some have to be dragged in kicking and screaming.

    If you have questions about transportation concurrency, PM me.
    A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."


    Neil McCauley (Robert DeNiro): Heat 1995

  9. #9
    Cyburbian H's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by The One
    It seems to me that if your in an area with plenty of sprawl left, concurrency will just promote that sprawl......
    Yup. That is why some cities (like G'ville I understand) opt for concurrency exemption, though it is harder now after last May (2005).
    "Those who plan do better than those who do not plan, even though they rarely stick to their plan." - Winston Churchill

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Floridays's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by The One
    Right now, from what I can tell, concurrency in Broward County is just making sure that water/sewer lines are upsized for development of infill and mass transit is a much bigger issue with fees and all.....Few or no roads are required because the right-of-way doesn't exist and large areas of infill are exempted..... The School Board is taking the "voluntary" agreements for payment of a "impact" fee, which drives the price of a new townhome/condo through the roof......Time to scrap the old notions of growth management and seek the more cooperative/guided growth methods.....I think anyway....
    I'm not in the "water/sewer line" loop, but I am familiar with the Transit Oriented Concurrency which went into effect this year. Before it was adopted by the County Commission, the eastern portion of the County was exempt from concurrency. No longer!
    Although most municipalities adopted TOC, there are some portions of the County that remain under the standard Traffic Concurrency. TOC was based on a 5-year Transit Development Plan in which all cities identified their transit needs.

  11. #11

    I don't get it

    I have been working in the planning field for 1 year now and I still do not get what we are doing. I don't see how making sure water, sewer, and roadways are in place ensures that we have a desirable community. It seems to me that LOS standards and concurrency is a distraction from the real issues facing us.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian Rumpy Tunanator's avatar
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    A mop could do a better job...........

    Quote Originally posted by FL Planner View post
    I have been working in the planning field for 1 year now and I still do not get what we are doing. I don't see how making sure water, sewer, and roadways are in place ensures that we have a desirable community. It seems to me that LOS standards and concurrency is a distraction from the real issues facing us.
    If you can't see the reasoning behind it, then maybe you're in the wrong profession. Infrastructure is the main backbone behind any project approved. As an example, I can see how making sure that there is adequate water and sewer would make a community desirable (for crip sakes functional). Unless you want all them septics next to each houses' wells' cone of influence. Tasty.

    Roads? The way some places keep approving development without requiring any improvements or at least access management, eventually you will have a problem the state won't be able to buy you out of. Then when the citizens complain about why nobody planned for all the growth who will they blame?

    No wonder most of the state's municipalities are a mess. Hey, what do we need water, sewer, and roads for?

    Not trying to be a dick, but come on, when it boils down to it concurrency really is adequate public facilities which a lot of states already try to and do enforce.
    A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."


    Neil McCauley (Robert DeNiro): Heat 1995

  13. #13
    Cyburbian
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    Concurrency Problems Solved ?

    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller View post
    Here's a question for fellow FL planners: To what degree does your jurisdiction consider concurrency when making land development decisions? Do you have systems of analysis to determine level of service standards and how they are met?

    While I think the Florida Growth Management system plays an important role in helping the public, planners, and politicians evaluate development decisions, my experience has been that concurrency is not a priority of local governments. I'd be interested in some other perspectives on this though.
    Hello from a developer;
    Concurrency has been on the books and ignored for 20 years. DCA has not been enforcing it. The DCA laisson for my county openly admitted this. The required reports have not been demanded and therefore have not been forthcoming from the counties. They claim that there will now be enforcement.
    Being that there are different bureaucrats assigned to various counties, the treatment may not be uniform.
    Concurrency can never work because the funds will not be available until the development is built and paying taxes. Because the tax money (and impact fee money) from new development is being stolen to reduce the taxes on present residents who are hiding behind the SOH cap it is not available for infrastructure.

    The legislature tried to do something about it with the SB 360 "Proportionate Fair Share" scheme but apparently they have realized that this will not work because even if they can extort money out of large developers, the smaller developer's shares can only fund small percentages of infrastructure costs.
    That brings us to the new scheme:
    Included in the just enacted tax reduction package is a method of taxation for transportation infrastructure that is insulated from other revenues so the politicians can't get their hands on it. Tranportation districts are to be created within a County. I don't have it in front of me just now but it goes something like this :
    25 % of the difference between county total assessed evaluation and taxable evaluations will be liable for taxation for transportation funding. To be administered by a County Tranportation Authority (the Commissioners). To be added to the millage. I might not have this exactly right. you should check it.

    Inventor

  14. #14
    My point is that by ensuring that we have all the infrastructure in place does not ensure anything other than that we get around, get water, and dispose of waste.

    There are more things that impact quality of life then things that can be "counted."

    My other point is that the system we created is so data intensive and complicated that it paralyzes planners from doing real effective analysis and making recommendations that will work. Concurrency in Florida has been in place since the 80s. Show me where our recently developed cities differ from anywhere else in the U.S.? Sprawl is still very active.

    We have exempted concurrency in inner cities because it has been shown to work against goals of infill and redevelopment. Forcing developers to meet concurrency makes green areas without capacity issues even more attractive. We already know that greenfield development is much cheaper than redevelopment Have you never read the article by Anthony Downs?

    http://www.anthonydowns.com/concurrency.htm

    As for the personal attack... about being in the wrong profession...I find it very interesting that my comment lead you to respond that way. You must really believe in the current system. We all have our opinions and mine is that it is a distraction. There are other ways of doing things... after all there are 49 other states out there.

    Congested Roads?
    Sewage seeping into wellfields.

    So you are telling me that if I have an uncongested road and no poop in my water, I will be happy?

    Give me a break. What about desirable urban form, preserving wildlife habitat, or achieving economic sustainability. These are real issues that concurrency does not touch. Worrying about how to keep poop out of the well is something for an engineer or water plant operator. Yeah they need to be mentioned but reducing planning down to these technical issues is a distraction.

    As for the personal attack...I am surprised by it. After all, are we not mature enought to be able to express opinions without being reduced down to throwing mud? There are 49 other states out there, how do they manage to get by?

    Also...if concurrency is the solution why don't our cities look any different from anywhere else? How do other cities keep the poop out of their wells?
    Last edited by NHPlanner; 22 Jun 2007 at 9:59 AM. Reason: double reply

  15. #15
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Inventor View post
    Hello from a developer;
    Concurrency has been on the books and ignored for 20 years. DCA has not been enforcing it. The DCA laisson for my county openly admitted this. The required reports have not been demanded and therefore have not been forthcoming from the counties. They claim that there will now be enforcement.
    Being that there are different bureaucrats assigned to various counties, the treatment may not be uniform.
    Concurrency can never work because the funds will not be available until the development is built and paying taxes. Because the tax money (and impact fee money) from new development is being stolen to reduce the taxes on present residents who are hiding behind the SOH cap it is not available for infrastructure.

    The legislature tried to do something about it with the SB 360 "Proportionate Fair Share" scheme but apparently they have realized that this will not work because even if they can extort money out of large developers, the smaller developer's shares can only fund small percentages of infrastructure costs.
    That brings us to the new scheme:
    Included in the just enacted tax reduction package is a method of taxation for transportation infrastructure that is insulated from other revenues so the politicians can't get their hands on it. Tranportation districts are to be created within a County. I don't have it in front of me just now but it goes something like this :
    25 % of the difference between county total assessed evaluation and taxable evaluations will be liable for taxation for transportation funding. To be administered by a County Tranportation Authority (the Commissioners). To be added to the millage. I might not have this exactly right. you should check it.
    Inventor
    Excellent points, and I agree with a lot of what you said. I would go further to say that development (particularly residential) can never pay for itself once it is in the ground under the status quo and the proposed tax reforms will ensure it never will. SOH tied local governments hands behind their back to and forced them to spend all of their ad valorem on schools, police, and fire. There is no money left for infrastructure, or at least maintain at an acceptable level of service. The state knows this, which is why concurrency was "hardened" in 2005 with proportionate share and tougher water supply and school mandates. But the only thing that was hardened was the heads of the politicians and bureaucrats in Tallahassee. All their reforms added up to was more lipstick for the concurrency pig.

  16. #16
    Cyburbian Flying Monkeys's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by FL Planner View post
    We have exempted concurrency in inner cities because it has been shown to work against goals of infill and redevelopment. Forcing developers to meet concurrency makes green areas without capacity issues even more attractive. We already know that greenfield development is much cheaper than redevelopment Have you never read the article by Anthony Downs?

    Congested Roads?
    Sewage seeping into wellfields.

    So you are telling me that if I have an uncongested road and no poop in my water, I will be happy?
    Concurrency had two important requirements. One requirement was that infrastructure was provided for new development. Another requirement was for DCA to prevent sprawl by denying land use amendments and DRIs that fit a very detailed definition of sprawl. DCA never had the political backing to deny sprawl development. Without this important stop in allowing development to build on cheaper land further away from available infrastructure, concurrency has failed, miserably.

    And yes...I would be very happy with uncongested roads and no poop in my water. I don't think these basic things will be available in Florida’s future...also gone will be a fresh water supply, good schools, and an accountable government. Too bad.

    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller View post
    The state knows this, which is why concurrency was "hardened" in 2005 with proportionate share and tougher water supply and school mandates. But the only thing that was hardened was the heads of the politicians and bureaucrats in Tallahassee. All their reforms added up to was more lipstick for the concurrency pig.
    A case of a doing to little to late....The problem with the concurrency strategy is that the political will to enforce what is mandated has never been there. Why? Because our system runs on ever expanding economic heat. To deny development in Florida is to smother the heat. So, no matter what is mandated, the same fallacy in the strategy is present. In fact, from my personal experience it is worse. The state (FL) and it's government used to be for sale to the highest bidder...now it has been bought and paid for. Sorry, State government in Florida has gone from bad to worse and most just blindly accept the situation and act as if it will get better.
    Last edited by NHPlanner; 25 Jun 2007 at 9:20 AM. Reason: double reply
    What’s in a name? – Your reputation….:)

  17. #17
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Flying Monkeys View post
    A case of a doing to little to late....The problem with the concurrency strategy is that the political will to enforce what is mandated has never been there. Why? Because our system runs on ever expanding economic heat. To deny development in Florida is to smother the heat. So, no matter what is mandated, the same fallacy in the strategy is present. In fact, from my personal experience it is worse. The state (FL) and it's government used to be for sale to the highest bidder...now it has been bought and paid for. Sorry, State government in Florida has gone from bad to worse and most just blindly accept the situation and act as if it will get better.
    Your argument about political will is well-founded, I agree 100%. Florida is addicted to development like a lifelong smoker that knows eventually he'll die of lung cancer but rather than quit he figures he might as well enjoy himself before he dies.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian
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    Limits to "Concurrency Moratoria" ?

    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller View post
    Your argument about political will is well-founded, I agree 100%. Florida is addicted to development like a lifelong smoker that knows eventually he'll die of lung cancer but rather than quit he figures he might as well enjoy himself before he dies.
    Hello Hildweller,
    So where do you think "Concurrency " is headed now ? I have been shut down and the county refuses to declare a moratorium. The property appraiser can't give landowners a break unless the moratorium is official. ( FS 193. 011 ). The sprawl will be agravated. Have you seen any "Bert Harris" lawsuits over this type of issue ?
    How long a moratorium will still be only "temporary taking". Any thoughts on the subject ?

  19. #19
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Inventor View post
    Because the tax money (and impact fee money) from new development is being stolen to reduce the taxes on present residents who are hiding behind the SOH cap it is not available for infrastructure.

    The legislature tried to do something about it with the SB 360 "Proportionate Fair Share" scheme but apparently they have realized that this will not work because even if they can extort money out of large developers, the smaller developer's shares can only fund small percentages of infrastructure costs.
    That brings us to the new scheme:


    Inventor

    You sure have a hard-on about SOH, don't you? Well, as a lifelong FL resident (and beyond being a planner) and sick and tired of being overrun with transplanted Yankees and horrible developments (yeah, probably some of your stuff), why should I be paying for a bunch of looneytunes to ruin my state? It is a GOOD THING to have a tax cap so that working-class people can actually keep their homes.

    As for "extorting" from large developers... you guys are making millions off of us, so don't complain. It's like anything else in life. I'm getting ready to sell my house, I gotta put some $$ into it. You do, too.

  20. #20
    Cyburbian The One's avatar
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    Ahh....

    Quote Originally posted by Inventor View post
    Hello Hildweller,
    So where do you think "Concurrency " is headed now ? I have been shut down and the county refuses to declare a moratorium. The property appraiser can't give landowners a break unless the moratorium is official. ( FS 193. 011 ). The sprawl will be agravated. Have you seen any "Bert Harris" lawsuits over this type of issue ?
    How long a moratorium will still be only "temporary taking". Any thoughts on the subject ?
    I can't speak for Hildweller....but.....
    Do you mean other than the cases I pointed out in your thread:

    http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?t=30020

    If you find any other cases......let us all know......ok......
    Skilled Adoxographer

  21. #21
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Moderator note:
    Okay now, let's tone it down. Heated arguments can be fun, but let's watch the language and address the issues. Again, I'd hate to close a thread that has information and passion, but I'll do it if we can't play nice. Cool?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
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  22. #22
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Mastiff View post
    Moderator note:
    Okay now, let's tone it down. Heated arguments can be fun, but let's watch the language and address the issues. Again, I'd hate to close a thread that has information and passion, but I'll do it if we can't play nice. Cool?
    Look, this guy keeps harping on the same themes in different threads. It's an insult to FL planners and residents. Sure, live here, have a lively debate. Don't live in Mass and cry over and over about FL policy. So it is OK for him to insult me because I'm "hiding behind Save Our Homes" but I can't respond? Maybe you should tell him to back down on his hostile and insulting manner? This is not theoretical; this is my home state, I'm a planner and a resident here, and I should be able to respond accordingly.

  23. #23
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zoning Goddess View post
    Look, this guy keeps harping on the same themes in different threads. It's an insult to FL planners and residents. Sure, live here, have a lively debate. Don't live in Mass and cry over and over about FL policy. So it is OK for him to insult me because I'm "hiding behind Save Our Homes" but I can't respond? Maybe you should tell him to back down on his hostile and insulting manner? This is not theoretical; this is my home state, I'm a planner and a resident here, and I should be able to respond accordingly.
    Moderator note:
    No, anyone can have a lively debate no matter where they live. I've engaged the same fellow without having to use language that is inappropriate. You can, too. However, the comment I made was aimed at everyone in the thread, not just you. So take it as I said it, not how you might think I intended it. Everyone... that means anyone who's got their neck up... take a deep breath. Then continue in a civil manner. Can we do that?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
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    If you don't so what cause you don't scare me

  24. #24
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    To Inventor

    Inventor, I continue to read your posts and laugh to myself...today I had to show a colleague of mine (who used to work in Florida - for a large developer) one of your posts (from this thread) and he had this advice to pass along:

    "Come try California...then start complaining about Florida Concurrency and Bert Harris!"

    Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the issue to make any good responses, but perhaps my friend will jump on this site sometime this week...

  25. #25
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Mastiff View post
    Moderator note:
    No, anyone can have a lively debate no matter where they live. I've engaged the same fellow without having to use language that is inappropriate. You can, too. However, the comment I made was aimed at everyone in the thread, not just you. So take it as I said it, not how you might think I intended it. Everyone... that means anyone who's got their neck up... take a deep breath. Then continue in a civil manner. Can we do that?
    As long as this dumba$$ keeps whining (what, for 2 weeks now?) about the same thing, I'm gonna keep chiming in. So sue me.

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