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Thread: Celebration

  1. #1
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
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    Celebration

    The best pictures in this post were taken by Dan, and can be found in the Cyburbia Gallery:

    http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/show...si=celebration


    CELEBRATION


    It’s time for Celebration. But before we get to it, let’s play a little game of Guess the City.

    Aah…Florida:



    Wait a minute! That isn’t Florida; that’s obviously Alexandria, Virginia.




    This is Seattle or Portland.




    Savannah, Georgia, for sure.




    Don’t know where in Europe this one is: maybe Belgium, maybe the Po Valley? If it were France, the trees would be cropped and closer together.




    Just to the northwest of the Arc de Triomphe lies the leafy urban suburb of Neuilly.




    Aha! Obviously this is one of those buildings on the outskirts of Modena where rich playboys pretend to be car manufacturers. Just as obviously, the architect was Aldo Rossi.




    Is this a secluded cove in an Adriatic resort of Croatia, or maybe Slovenia?




    This one is a no-brainer. That is obviously Charleston.




    Just as obviously, this is Maine. A new development; there are still stickers on the windows. New England retro.




    This must be the nautically-themed hotel down on the harbor at Annapolis.


    No? Drat! Wrong again: they’re all in the same place:


  2. #2
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
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    CELEBRATION, FLORIDA!! …by Disney!!!




    The following description is from this website:

    http://celebration.nm1.net/#WHAT

    WHAT IS CELEBRATION??......


    It is the first planned community developed by The Walt Disney Company. While EPCOT Center was originally planned as an "Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow", we all know that financial as well as other considerations dictated that the dream of Walt Disney be changed from a city to a new gated attraction.

    Celebration will be a true planned community including a downtown, health center, school, post office, town hall, golf course, single family homes, townhouses and apartments. Disney used the services of top-name architects in developing the plans for Celebration. The master plan architects were Cooper, Robertson & Partners and Robert A.M. Stern Architects.

    FACTS ABOUT CELEBRATION
    · Opening of Phase One:
    -July 4th, 1996
    · Size:
    -4,900 acres, surrounded by a protected greenbelt of 4,700 acres
    · Population:
    -20,000 people in 8,000 housing units
    · Government:
    -Unincorporated town within Osceola County
    -Two Community Development Districts will provide funding for the infrastructure of Celebration
    -Two community associations will manage the neighborhoods
    -The Walt Disney Company will own the downtown, golf course and office park
    -Home buyers will own their homes and land
    · Zip Code:
    -34747
    · Amenities:
    -18 hole public golf course
    -Public school
    -Offices
    -Health facility
    -Theatres
    -Walking paths
    -Nature trails
    -Village parks
    -Downtown lake
    · Total Investment:
    -$2.5 Billion




    Ah, now I can tell it’s Florida; look at those Miami Beach colors.




    Even better, Caribbean!




    This place is seriously pretty.




    The bachelors and swingers live in the 1BR units above the shops, smack in the middle of downtown. Note that Disney is not much into restricting the size of signage if it suits a picturesque purpose. That big beige thing dangling off the corner is a neon sign visible from down two streets. That must be Stern again; he’s the one who rezoned Times Square and told them they had to have neon. I remember when St. Augustine looked like this, before they turned it into a tourist attraction.




    The streetscape here makes me think of Cannes.




    A really nifty building by Stern, near the middle of things. Nice to see there is a middle.




    Arcaded sidewalks with shops, just like Palm Beach, make a nice perspective axis.




    The same receding lines in a traffic median, like a mini-Commonwealth Avenue. Are you starting to get the impression that this is really a pretty nice place?


    Look, they have even jumped on the city car idea, http://pub66.ezboard.com/fskyscraper...picID=50.topic, and have specially-sized and designated spaces for microcars. This one is about the size and configuration of the Smart without doors:




    Palm Beach-style, with its alleys and mid-block courts:






    Glad to see that Disney is not down on taverns. That is a pretty nice café; and what lakefront is complete without a [Leon] Krieresque gazebo, complete with Key West shutters? That tropical theme just doesn’t let up:






    The canal tells you you’re in Florida (or maybe the Low Countries); Celebration must have been a swamp once:


  3. #3
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
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    Now we’re definitely in Florida. Like that Spanish architecture:






    And now, here is a square in London-town. Is this Belgravia? Nice of the fire marshal to allow windows in the endwalls; nothing worse to look at than a blank, exposed party wall:






    Now we’re getting into more familiar, suburban territory. Things are starting to look less like someplace else and more like anyplace. Here is Anyplace, Cape Cod style:






    And here is Anyplace, Victorian-style. Late nineteenth century streetscape with modern appliances, air conditioning and attached garages in the rear:






    From the Celebration website referenced above:

    HOUSING

    Unlike most planned communities, where different uses and housing types a developed in separate "zones", Celebration will blend townhouses, apartments and Estate Homes in the same neighborhoods. Plans call for a pre-40's type of town...classical architecture, garages behind the houses and everything within walking distance.

    Restrictive covenants will dictate what homeowners can and cannot do in Celebration. The covenants will not be released until homes go on sale on November 18, 1995. Included in the covenants are six approved design styles for homes in Celebration….

    Classical
    Victorian
    Colonial Revival
    Coastal
    Mediterranean
    French



    It seems from the photos that they decided in fact that it was too risky to mix residential types. Too bad; I guess people prefer their immediate surroundings to be monotonous. Or maybe it’s only the experts who think this. Has anyone tried recently to test this theory with actual built form?

    Here’s the link to Disney’s house types, as listed on the official website:

    http://www.celebrationfl.com/residential/homes.html

    Note the prices.


    Here is a quick tour of Downtown.




    The lugubrious (no, funereal) City Hall, by Philip Johnson. Has the Mouse no eyes? This building conveys the exact opposite of celebration. Oh well, guess it’s by a great architect. Well, famous anyway:




    Post Office by Michael Graves, bank by Robert Venturi. Mediocrity incarnate in both cases; obviously only the name on the plans was important. I am posting drawings because photos make them look worse:




    The waterfront hotel by Graham Gund is pretty nice:




    The movie theater is right out of The Majestic:




    Downtown is a pretty nice place to hang out:






    Holy Moley: rocking chairs in the town square!! What will they think of next? Those imagineers! Next they’ll be soliciting for street artists.




    A four-passenger city car for a mild climate:


  4. #4
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
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    Signs the touristos are starting to make nuisances of themselves:



    What: you want privacy living in a theme park? Or is it a theme park? Maybe not.















    More info (a bit out of date) from: http://www.city-data.com/city/Celebration-Florida.html

    Population (year 2000): 2,736
    Males: 1,331 (48.6%), Females: 1,405 (51.4%)
    County: Osceola
    Land area: 10.7 square miles
    Zip code: 34747
    Median resident age: 36.9 years
    Median household income: $74,231
    Median house value: $380,900
    Races in Celebration:
    · White Non-Hispanic (87.3%)
    · Hispanic (7.6%)
    · Black (1.7%)
    · Other race (1.0%)
    · Two or more races (1.0%)
    · Asian Indian (0.8%)
    · Chinese (0.6%)
    (Total can be greater than 100% because Hispanics could be counted in other races)
    Ancestries: Irish (16.9%), German (14.7%), Italian (11.6%), English (11.4%), United States (8.3%), Scotch-Irish (4.6%).
    For population 25 years and over in Celebration CDP, Florida
    · High school or higher: 93.8%
    · Bachelor's degree or higher: 57.4%
    · Graduate or professional degree: 21.7%
    · Unemployed: 2.6%
    · Mean travel time to work: 19.9 minutes
    For population 15 years and over in Celebration CDP, Florida
    · Never married: 22.2%
    · Now married: 66.0%
    · Separated: 1.6%
    · Widowed: 5.8%
    · Divorced: 4.4%
    7.9% Foreign born (4.0% Europe, 2.5% Latin America).

    A Request

    There is evidently a deep need to hate Disney.

    This thread is probably not the best place for a diatribe about corporate greed, the dangers of media consolidation, the sterilization of art, child molestation, homophiles or corporate censorship.

    If, instead, you use a search engine and type the words "hate Disney", you will get a bonanza of Disney haters. There are at least 20 Hate Disney Forums. It's more popular than planning, by far.

    http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=hat...t&cop=mss&tab=

    If you are one of those who needs to hate Disney, pick one of those websites and vent there. Then, refreshed, come back and discuss the urban planning and architectural issues raised by Celebration.

  5. #5
    Cyburbian
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    Dude your posts are way to long.

  6. #6
    Member steveanne's avatar
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    Ahh yes, Celebration. I used to work for the mouse a few years back and had many friends that lived in Celebration. Very nice... for a company that has caused so much sprawl! Unfortunately, a lot of tourists see Celebration as just another place to check out for free off of Route 192.

    Off topic, for you Central Floridians...

    What can be done to 192 in Kissimmee?? Holy crap! Run down hotels, themed areas closing at the drop of a hat (Xanadu - House of the Future, and the Haunted Dinner Show come to mind), terrible traffic, flea markets everywhere! A Publix every 1/2 mile...

    My favorite eyesore on 192 is the Viking Motel... And have you noticed everything is "something world"? Boot World, Shell World, Citrus World, Flea World, etc...

  7. #7
         
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    I spy with my little eye....lots o' cars and no pedestrians. What is up with that? That's no kind of urbanism.

  8. #8
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    Originally posted by gkmo62u
    Dude your posts are way to long.
    Agreed.

    Less is more, ablarc.

    Less is more.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    Somebody want to give me the Cliff Notes on this post?

  10. #10
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
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    Shorter

    I will make future posts shorter. What do you recommend for a length?

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    Re: Shorter

    Originally posted by ablarc
    I will make future posts shorter. What do you recommend for a length?
    Just use a handful of the best shots, then put the rest in the gallery. The problem is that it takes so long to download the images eacg time you read the thread, even when you have DSL.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian H's avatar
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    Very pretty, but when I visited Celebration it felt very sterile and too "Disney".

    What I don’t understand is if people want this lifestly why not move intown of an existing town? Why must we manufacture towns when we already have perfectly good ones? Is the attraction because it is new? What will happen when Celebration becomes old? Remodeling must be a pain the buttocks, the codes regs of what you can and cant do are so strong from what I understand.

    I have to give both Celebration and Disney the big thumbs down.
    "Those who plan do better than those who do not plan, even though they rarely stick to their plan." - Winston Churchill

  13. #13
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    Because real towns have real town problems. New urbanist "towns" are make-believe towns where everything is perfect.

  14. #14
    Cyburbian H's avatar
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    Originally posted by jordanb
    Because real towns have real town problems. New urbanist "towns" are make-believe towns where everything is perfect.
    Yeah, ‘perfectly’ boring. :-S

    Real towns also have real culture. Celebration has as much culture as a strip mall. :-P

    But jordanb,unfortunately I believe you have it right on the mark here.
    "Those who plan do better than those who do not plan, even though they rarely stick to their plan." - Winston Churchill

  15. #15
    There are public discussion boards for Celebration residents at www.34747.com and the main page has really nice pictures that are regularly updated.

    It's interesting to see what the folks who inhabit that town discuss...

  16. #16
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    ablarc Long post, but I'm glad you provided us with the epic. Thanks.

    To the Old crusty towns are better bunch I say, give them a chance. Most of what you retro types rave about was just as new and offbeat as the White City or Central Park were in their days. Experimentation is good. No one is being forced to live there.

  17. #17
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Originally posted by jordanb
    Because real towns have real town problems. New urbanist "towns" are make-believe towns where everything is perfect.
    So were planned communities from before the New Urban era. Shaker Heights is really starting to show its age. New towns developed from the 1950s through the 1970s, like Columbia, Maryland and Park Forest, Illinois are experiencing aging pains. The riots in Foster City, California in the 1970s were legendary.

    Celebration isn't immunie from the same forces that affect all other communities.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  18. #18
    Cyburbian H's avatar
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    Originally posted by brandonmason
    There are public discussion boards for Celebration residents at www.34747.com and the main page has really nice pictures that are regularly updated.

    It's interesting to see what the folks who inhabit that town discuss...
    That is interesting. Are there any other towns that have such an active board that you know of?
    "Those who plan do better than those who do not plan, even though they rarely stick to their plan." - Winston Churchill

  19. #19
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
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    Originally posted by brandonmason
    There are public discussion boards for Celebration residents at www.34747.com and the main page has really nice pictures that are regularly updated.

    It's interesting to see what the folks who inhabit that town discuss...
    One of the hottest threads is the one on Celebration High School:

    http://www.34747.com/forum/display_t...PagePosition=2

    Apparently some folks are not satisfied with the quality of education there:

    "Would anyone like to join me in buying land where we can construct a new, private high school?

    I am considering contacting the Celebration Company about my interest in buying up to five (5) acres to construct a school for approximately 400 Celebration resident students. Yes, the land will be expensive, and yes the project will be a challange, but now that the new Montessori School (Begonia Hall) is almost complete, I am ready to tackle another project."

    Good luck! Once you buy the land, how are you going to pay for the building and salaries of the teaching and administrative staff?

    But let's hear from one of the CHS students:

    "Making a private school will solve nothing. It will take years to build, and by building a school, you're pretty much giving up on our school. Not only that, but if you think we have a problem with teachers now then you'll definently have a teacher problem with a private school. Not only is there a tremendous teacher shortage in the country, but teachers are also less likely to work at a private school because of the conditions. I can tell you from personal experience that kids from Celebration are sterotyped as being the rich, white, snobby kids. Building a private school will only help to foster that belief."

    Great stuff!

  20. #20
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
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    Thanks, el Guapo, I was beginning to think this was the Sound Bite Forum.
    I’ll try to keep them shorter in the future for those without DSL, but there is so much to say.

    How far can you go with “Less is more”? The poster of this pithy phrase felt the need to repeat it when making a point about brevity. Sometimes once is not enough.


    I spy with my little eye...lots o' cars and no pedestrians. What is up with that? That's no kind of urbanism.

    CityGrrl,

    Some photographers go to a lot of trouble to keep people out of their pictures of urban places, but they can’t do the same about parked cars. For a time, I used to get up at 4am Sundays to take pictures in Boston’s Financial District; it was the only time I could stand in the middle of the street or keep my pictures from filling up with heads. If your little eye spied those pictures, it would deceive you.

    Actually, many of the downtown pictures contain the expected number of pedestrians for a small town. Small towns rarely have the teeming sidewalks of Fifth Avenue. And while on Fifth Avenue, I can direct you to any number of deserted residential sidewalks where you could peacefully smoke a joint in broad daylight.

    What do you think those people did at Celebration after they parked their cars at curbside…dematerialize?

    At least the place isn’t full of parking lots. It has a chance.


    Sunday Morning by Edward Hopper

    Very pretty, but when I visited Celebration it felt very sterile and too "Disney".

    H,

    Amazing how often a planner’s sentence starts with “Very pretty, but…”
    Sometimes I think that if we concentrated on getting the “very pretty,” we could leave the social engineering to take care of itself; it never works according to theory, anyway.

    It could be that we’re biased against the pretty; there just has to be a lot wrong with it.
    Real places aren’t pretty, right?

    Maybe when you speak of sterility, you mean that Celebration doesn’t have the patina of age that you find in the remnants of old towns; in other words it’s not run down. No graffiti, no parking lots, no peeling paint, no broken signs. Give it time; these will come.

    There is no overt evidence of Disney at Celebration; if a planner didn’t know it was Celebration, he would probably still paint it with the term anyway, along with Seaside, Kentlands, and Poundbury, all of which I have heard referred to with this term. It is a catchall term of disapproval applied to all New Urbanism by those who feel threatened by it. Whatever for? No one has to live there.

    What I don’t understand is if people want this lifestly why not move intown of an existing town?

    There’s something about a new car…or house…or town…

    Many of the old towns no longer have functioning downtowns; many have been converted to suburbia by parking or zoning requirements; others have turned into weekend antique malls. Others now look like this:


    Cairo, Illinois

    Why must we manufacture towns when we already have perfectly good ones?

    We don’t have perfectly good ones. We have a bunch of old wrecks.
    And even the best ones are not much loved by planners. Read the comments on Carmel on the Design page.

    Is the attraction because it is new?

    Yes, that makes it clean and attractive. But that’s not all; it has pretty much all of the characteristics of a traditional American town, and that is what some people seem to want at this time, like SUVs. The transition from suburb to a town like Celebration is not as gut-wrenching for these people as would be moving to say, Cairo, Ill.

    It’s all about nostalgia: your perfectly good old towns and Celebration. The people who buy into Celebration want their nostalgia with a dishwasher that works.


    Summer Evening by Edward Hopper

    Personally, I like run-down places. I move into them if they have faded architectural merit. I watch as my investment grows and my environment improves. I would never consider living in Celebration, but I am not like most people. Most people don’t want to endure years of burglaries until their neighborhoods improve, whereas I don’t mind so much.

    What will happen when Celebration becomes old?

    That’s a long way off and depends on so many factors. It could devolve into a suburb if they change the zoning; or it could grow into a city if they change the zoning. Or it could turn into a depressed area if the Orlando region declined.

    In all cases it would look more modified by time, and therefore would have to meet with greater approval from those who object to its present newness.

    Remodeling must be a pain the buttocks, the codes regs of what you can and cant do are so strong from what I understand.

    Most residents of Celebration subscribe to what they deem to be the wisdom of the regulations; that’s partly why they moved there. You could also say this about the artists in SoHo.You will never write regulations that please everyone from all places. The best you can hope to do is write regulations that please your target group.

    The run-down place I moved into and helped fix up is now a historic district. If you want to talk about idiotic and coercive regulations, try moving into one of those; the people who write those rules know even less about architecture than planning. Or maybe if you really want to live there, you’ll take comfort that the regs will protect your chosen lifestyle.

    Personally, I hate them, but I’m a born rebel.

    I have to give both Celebration and Disney the big thumbs down.

    Everyone these days gives Disney the thumbs down. It’s the trend:

    http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=hat...t&cop=mss&tab=
    Last edited by ablarc; 07 Dec 2003 at 4:50 PM.

  21. #21
    Cyburbian H's avatar
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    Originally posted by ablarc
    Amazing how often a planner’s sentence starts with “Very pretty, but…”
    That is a fair accusation. However, I find nothing wrong with the “but” statement because it means that faults are being searched out, which leads to solutions, which leads to better places.

    Real places aren’t pretty, right?
    Wrong. ‘Real’ places can be very pretty. I know plenty. There are many threads on Cyburbia where we discuss pretty ‘real’ places. Go read them.

    There is no overt evidence of Disney at Celebration
    There are no mouse ears, true, but the ‘Disney’ was felt by myself and the non-planners I was there with.

    No one has to live there.
    True.

    There’s something about a new car…or house…or town….
    Apparently there is. There is also something about a town with history and tradition. I realize this is a personal opinion choice and I chose history. I enjoy eating at a restaurant that our grandfathers ate at or a big ‘deal’ was cut, I enjoy playing golf (or substitute other activity here) on a course where my dad learned how the play and hit his first birdie. I enjoy seeing relatives and town legends in class pictures in the high school or college. I enjoy seeing places with historical signs out front or at least a story. But this is an opinion, I realize that.

    Many of the old towns no longer have functioning downtowns.
    And many do.

    We don’t have perfectly good ones. We have a bunch of old wrecks.
    Excuse me??? Come on, that is an ignorant statement. There are plenty of good old towns. Again, go read the forums to see examples.

    I just cannot see the charm in Celebration. I believe these new towns built in a short time period as a mass development are make-believe and I do not support them (my comments are about the towns, your pictures are nice). I do not like the way our disposable culture throws away old towns and creates new ones without a thought about what this does to our society. I will make no apologies for thinking this way, and expect no apologies from people who think differently. However, I just find it sad and will always continue to work to help areas left behind by ‘progress’.

    But cheers to you, ablarc, for having an opinion.
    Last edited by H; 07 Dec 2003 at 7:00 PM.
    "Those who plan do better than those who do not plan, even though they rarely stick to their plan." - Winston Churchill

  22. #22
    Cyburbian ablarc's avatar
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    H,

    Thank you, and cheers to you.

    I don't think our opinions are so far apart.

    I agree with pretty much everything you say that is not proscriptive. As I said, I wouldn't dream of living in Celebration, but that does not mean I support denying it to others, or disparaging its genuine virtues.

    I also think we should fix up our old towns and cities, but I don't see why that means we can't build new ones, too. And the new ones will inevitably seem...new. Or would you support imbuing them with some kind of artificial historic patina? Now that really would be Disney, wouldn't it?

    As a factual matter, we may have different standards of acceptability for surviving towns. I am aware of seven good old towns in my state. Your state--with plenty--sounds like paradise.
    Last edited by ablarc; 07 Dec 2003 at 6:47 PM.

  23. #23
    Cyburbian H's avatar
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    Originally posted by ablarc
    I am aware of seven good old towns in my state. Your state--with plenty--sounds like paradise.
    Well far from paradise, but the South (including my current state of Florida) has plenty of great towns full of history and personality. I have lived in 4 cities in my life and feel they all are great places full of life. These cities are:

    Atlanta, GA
    Oxford, Miss
    Knoxville, TN
    Miami, Florida

    And I have visit countless other great cities as well, both big and small.


    As you said, there will not be a world without new places. That is why people need to help them be the best they possibly can. That is why I look for fault in places. Hopefully if faults are noticed and pointed out, then the can be corrected.
    "Those who plan do better than those who do not plan, even though they rarely stick to their plan." - Winston Churchill

  24. #24
    Great Pics!!!! and background info....

  25. #25
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    I'm gonna go out on a limb since I live near Celebration and have visited it. I think it sucks. It may be aesthetically OK. But it has no warmth to it, the residents don't like "other people" there, and it is just plain too full of itself. Get the willies just thinking about re-visiting, too "Stepford".

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