SAFEGE monorail, then and now

[safege]

Someone posted a theory of transportation innovation which is still in the back of my mind. The theory goes that fourty year gaps mark the time when an idea reappears in the marketplace of ideas. He posted maybe six or seven examples from air, land, and sea transportation.

It can be argued that the Alweg monorail is on schedule, with more startups than the previous surge. SAFEGE monorail is also following behind, as it did the last time.

Here is a chatroom conversation about the rail built fourty years ago.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...oto=nextnewest

And here is a Florida State budget item from last month.

http://www.flsenate.gov/Publications...3041FY0506.htm

(Bear suggested that I start a SAFEGE thread. In debating what to put in, I left most of the marketing promotions out)

[Bear Up North]

I have been doing some internet research on the differences between Safege and the other types of monorails. From what I have seen, Safege is the smart choice for areas that experience cold weather, ice, snow, etc.

Even though I am not a planner by trade, monorail technology is exciting.....and in a world with a whole lot of "gas" problems, it sure seems like a wise direction to move in.

Bear

[AubieTurtle]

I think Disney and the Simpsons have both hurt the monorail cause by making it look to the public like something that shouldn't be taken seriously.

I general I like monorails and think they'd be great both for retrofitting into tight existing transportation corridors and for new mixed use corridors. A monorail can be mixed with biking and walking trails much easier than most other types of rail.

I'd love to see instead of much of the surface level light rail since it avoids many of the conflicts that light rail encounters on the ground when interfacing with other transportation modes. But elevated stations cost a lot more than the "bus stop on steriods" type of station of light rail.

Has anyone looked at monobeam? The theory looks good but as far as I know, it hasn't been implimented anywhere. The images on www.otg-inc.com don't do a great job of showing how it is different from a monorail unless you see the cross section view.

[JNA]

AIB AubieTurtle reference to the Simpson's;
here is link to episode details:

Marge vs. the Monorail
http://www.snpp.com/episodes/9F10.html

this episode skewers the loony underside of civic boosterism. Sooner or later, monorail mania grips every medium-size burg that yearns to join the big time, so when Springfield wins a multimillion-dollar settlement from corrupt nuclear-power mogul Mr. Burns, town residents entrust their jackpot to monorail huckster Lyle Lanley (Phil Hartman, at his oleaginous best). While everyone else joins in choruses of "The Monorail Song" -- one of the show's classic original tunes -- Marge (left) frets and fights back..

[safege]

Originally posted by AubieTurtle

I think Disney and the Simpsons have both hurt the monorail cause by making it look to the public like something that shouldn't be taken seriously.

I general I like monorails and think they'd be great both for retrofitting into tight existing transportation corridors and for new mixed use corridors. A monorail can be mixed with biking and walking trails much easier than most other types of rail.

I'd love to see instead of much of the surface level light rail since it avoids many of the conflicts that light rail encounters on the ground when interfacing with other transportation modes. But elevated stations cost a lot more than the "bus stop on steriods" type of station of light rail.

Has anyone looked at monobeam? The theory looks good but as far as I know, it hasn't been implimented anywhere. The images on www.otg-inc.com don't do a great job of showing how it is different from a monorail unless you see the cross section view.

This one will need financial backers to build a test track. I'll go out on a limb here and say that the torque involved would be no better than Alweg designs.

I'm posting this link to a site in Sweden. This is the english translation, which is not too bad. The only problem I have with it, is the problem solving concepts like the elevator, and the multi-use beamways. When people get going on a concept, I know restraint can be hard to come by. I do love the cute illustrations, though.

http://www.swedetrack.com/eflwa20.htm

[safege]

Originally posted by JNA

AIB AubieTurtle reference to the Simpson's;
here is link to episode details:

Marge vs. the Monorail
http://www.snpp.com/episodes/9F10.html

Did you notice it was written by Conan O'Brien?

It's a take-off on "The Music Man".

[DetroitPlanner]

Originally posted by Bear Up North

I have been doing some internet research on the differences between Safege and the other types of monorails. From what I have seen, Safege is the smart choice for areas that experience cold weather, ice, snow, etc.

Even though I am not a planner by trade, monorail technology is exciting.....and in a world with a whole lot of "gas" problems, it sure seems like a wise direction to move in.

Bear

Nah what we need to do is extend the people mover so I can get from my office to my cabin for fifty cents!

[Bear Up North]

Image if conditions were such that it would be politcally feasible and there was available funding to place Safege monorail in Detroit. How would it look?

My guess, that because of the influence of the suburbs, there would only be a couple spokes into downtown Detroit.....probably following the I-75 corridor from the north and the I-94 corridor from the west.

Other lines would follow Telegraph Road, 10 Mile Road, and I-275. Those going from Ann Arbor to downtown would park at the area near Metro Airport, and use the monorail that hangs next to I-94. West suburban folks would park in a Park-N-Ride lot at a station along I-275 or Telegraph and would need to "transfer" at the interchange.

East and north passengers would take the monorail next to 11 Mile Road and "transfer" at the I-75 line. South 'burbs and downriver 'burbs would drive to the I-94 line and park their SUV's.

Because the lines would generally parallel areas of sprawl, the usage could be high.

Then I woke up.....



Bear

[AubieTurtle]

Originally posted by safege

This one will need financial backers to build a test track. I'll go out on a limb here and say that the torque involved would be no better than Alweg designs.

I'm posting this link to a site in Sweden. This is the english translation, which is not too bad. The only problem I have with it, is the problem solving concepts like the elevator, and the multi-use beamways. When people get going on a concept, I know restraint can be hard to come by. I do love the cute illustrations, though.

http://www.swedetrack.com/eflwa20.htm

It's very weird that they decided to include a picture of Atlanta's Olympic mascot on that page. That was a somewhat Salvador Dali type moment.

The information on it is interesting but is obviously from someone who is letting their bias for this particular mode of transportation bleed into the statements. Even with that, the site does raise some good points. One thing I really like about the suspended system is that it would make near grade stations (such as the typical light rail station) easy to implement so they could be much cheaper. That give the system quite a bit of flexibility to change as the needs of the community change.

[DetroitPlanner]

Originally posted by Bear Up North

Image if conditions were such that it would be politcally feasible and there was available funding to place Safege monorail in Detroit. How would it look?

My guess, that because of the influence of the suburbs, there would only be a couple spokes into downtown Detroit.....probably following the I-75 corridor from the north and the I-94 corridor from the west.

Other lines would follow Telegraph Road, 10 Mile Road, and I-275. Those going from Ann Arbor to downtown would park at the area near Metro Airport, and use the monorail that hangs next to I-94. West suburban folks would park in a Park-N-Ride lot at a station along I-275 or Telegraph and would need to "transfer" at the interchange.

East and north passengers would take the monorail next to 11 Mile Road and "transfer" at the I-75 line. South 'burbs and downriver 'burbs would drive to the I-94 line and park their SUV's.

Because the lines would generally parallel areas of sprawl, the usage could be high.

Then I woke up.....



Bear

Check out the plan man.... http://www.semcog.org/products/pdfs/transitsummary.pdf

[safege]

This just in from Toledo :

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll...190401/-1/NEWS

They should google the suspended monorail used in mining, or contact Aerorail in Dallas, or Skytrain (after first determining that it is the correct Skytrain) monorail.

In any case, they should only consider a suspended system for freight.

Now, who do I know in Toledo?

[portlandrican]

me too!!! I am so surprised monorails haven't been more successful. I like the one at Newark's Liberty Airport. I hope to see the one in Seattle in action sometime this summer...

[Blian]

If you all are interested in monorail feasibility then you HAVE to check out Enthoven Associates, a design firm based here in Belgium. They're developing a prototype vehicle like a bus (rubber tires, diesel-powered, looks kind of like the little airport trains that ferry luggage) that drives around on street-grade BUT can also drive up onto a monorail track and switch to being electrically powered. They're hybrid train-busses! This is a great idea for integrating transportation networks in cities with limited budgets. When it's too cost-prohibitive to complete an entire rail line all at once, just build and use smaller segments. I saw the concept at the design museum of Gent and don't know if Enthoven has it on their website yet (www.ea-dc.com)

[Big Green Scott]

Originally posted by portlandrican

me too!!! I am so surprised monorails haven't been more successful. I like the one at Newark's Liberty Airport. I hope to see the one in Seattle in action sometime this summer...

Newark has a great Monorail, mostly used as a people mover.

I like the JFK AirTrain myself, While it is not a true Monorail, Its concrete track resembles a monorail track. It's a light rail using a linear induction motor (a.k.a It's an elevated train operating on a standard track footprint) but it has the look and feel of a monorail and it's quiet ...instead of a loud clunky "el".

This could be a good model for those who are looking to build a monorail but want to get over the "Disney/Simpson" Stigma. A Monorail is basically a modernized "el" train anyway.

They originally wanted to build a hybird Airtrain vehicle that could operate over both the concrete Airtrain "monorail" and on the LIRR tracks, but it hasn't happened yet. Maybe they still will if they connect the airtrain to LaGuardia.

[safege]

I started this thread for SAFEGE style, suspended monorail for the many advantages that it has over Alweg monorail. But as long as the reader is not confused, I will assume the relative terms are understood.

Carry on.

[Big Green Scott]

Originally posted by safege

I started this thread for SAFEGE style, suspended monorail for the many advantages that it has over Alweg monorail.

Sorry about the diversion. Actually I think the Safege pages you linked us to were very interesting.

I think the elevator idea is a little bit out there, Especially when you get to the point of driving freight or vehicles into the cars...but I understand and agree with all the other points on why a hanging monorail is better than a supported one. I particularly like the self banking feature that the safege provides so the speed for trains can be varied without track improvements.


I'm also a big fan of the idea of building a mass transit system witha series of elevated trails as part of its conception. I love the old "el" becoming a hiking trail thats on the West side of Manhattan. You could have your transit system be well designed and give a safe space for bicycle traffic as well.


from Friends of the High Line

[Bear Up North]

This suppler-park monorail idea has been talked-about here in Toledo for a year or so. It would be a good fit for a supplier park that was large and/or seperated from any main (such as assmbly) plant. It would be overkill for supplier parks that are based on a spoke and wheel design.

Not suprised that Daimler-Chrysler doesn't shout "YES" on this concept. They don't want to ruffle always-easily-ruffled union feathers. Even though the unions in this town are much smaller than years ago, they still hold a lot of sway in automobile assembly and in trucking.

Side-note: A good friend of mine retired a few years ago from his union truck driving position. His job was to run semi truck loads of parts from one Jeep plant (that is finally closing this week) to another, just a mile or so away. Get a couple beers in him and he would rant endlessly about "trains".

Bear

[safege]

Originally posted by Bear Up North

This suppler-park monorail idea has been talked-about here in Toledo for a year or so. It would be a good fit for a supplier park that was large and/or seperated from any main (such as assmbly) plant. It would be overkill for supplier parks that are based on a spoke and wheel design.

Not suprised that Daimler-Chrysler doesn't shout "YES" on this concept. They don't want to ruffle always-easily-ruffled union feathers. Even though the unions in this town are much smaller than years ago, they still hold a lot of sway in automobile assembly and in trucking.

Side-note: A good friend of mine retired a few years ago from his union truck driving position. His job was to run semi truck loads of parts from one Jeep plant (that is finally closing this week) to another, just a mile or so away. Get a couple beers in him and he would rant endlessly about "trains".

Bear

You and I have both seen automation in the workplace. We went from 180 skilled technicians, down to an even dozen where I work. And what a trip it was, too.

The Midwest is getting the smallest share of immigration, legal or illegal. This makes it even more important that politicians are not allowed to scoff at ideas like distance education, or in this case, automated transit.

This is from the Robert Reich blogspot :

Look, I was a trustee of the Social Security trust fund. I saw up close how the actuaries made their projections for when the fund will run out of gas. They plugged in (and continue to plug in) very low estimates of average annual economic growth over the next seven decades. But if the U.S. economy grows anywhere close to its average growth over the LAST seven decades -- which is over 3 percent a year -- the trust fund will do just fine. How can we grow that fast when we won't have enough new entries into the labor force to support the vast baby-boom generation? Two ways: First, productivity gains will be substantial, as new technologies work their way through the economy (consider the astounding productivity gains what's over the last five years). Second, America will continue to have lots of legal and illegal immigration, despite whatever Washington does in the meantime. So don't worry too much about Social Security. Fix your worried gaze at Medicare instead. There's the real problem.

Side note from me : My posts are totally humourless lately, but I don't mean them to be. Must relax. Must get life, soon. Garden. Take day off. Fall on someone's new mowed lawn.

[safege]

I hope you have as much fun with this site as I do. Check out the other transportation categories listed.

http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/news_eve...tics/monorail/

[arkitec8]

Have you seen the Hytran Transportaion system?
Look for it in the Monorail Society
It may well be the answer you were/are looking for.
It does all of the things you'd like it to do without doing any of the things you'd wish it not to!

Hytran

[safege]

Originally posted by arkitec8

Have you seen the Hytran Transportaion system?
Look for it in the Monorail Society
It may well be the answer you were/are looking for.
It does all of the things you'd like it to do without doing any of the things you'd wish it not to!

Hytran

The more manufacturers come up with alternate design plans for a SAFEGE style monorail, the better the chances of a competitive bid being accepted somewhere. I could nit pick about a preference for steel wheels, like on Aerorail (their website down for several weeks now) or Sky Train, but as long as manufacturers are willing to provide a product, then I should

[rabelaisien]

i'm 62 old. When i was young, i went to see SAFEGE trial at Chateauneuf-sur-Loire, and the driver invited me to ride.

[arkitec8]

I'm not sure that this will arrive in the hands of SAFEGE, though I hope that it will.
Hytran is actively engaged in the design and development of 21st Century embodiment of the French SAFEGE prototype. Our web site can be found through THe Monorail Society or Google. We are in a number of meetings about some very bright possibilities being considered nationally as well as world wide. I personally believe the time has come for this system to be seen and employed for the benefits and economies that it has. I'd be please to have further discussions with you as may be your inclination. Michael Meissner President HTCI

[safege]

Originally posted by arkitec8

I'm not sure that this will arrive in the hands of SAFEGE, though I hope that it will.
Hytran is actively engaged in the design and development of 21st Century embodiment of the French SAFEGE prototype. Our web site can be found through THe Monorail Society or Google. We are in a number of meetings about some very bright possibilities being considered nationally as well as world wide. I personally believe the time has come for this system to be seen and employed for the benefits and economies that it has. I'd be please to have further discussions with you as may be your inclination. Michael Meissner President HTCI

This is the second humbling experience I have had with the actual president of a monorail team. I'm sorry I didn't pick up on that with your previous post. About four years ago, I e-mailed Mr. Trenary of Aerorail Corp. with a request for hand-outs to each of the media outlets with a booth at the State Fair. He replied with a nice letter, several dozen hand-outs, and a copy of a recent proposal for Seattle. I also purchased two dozen copies of the video produced by the monorail society. (The current version is a DVD, which has no useful information on suspended rail. This is one of several reasons that I have since distanced myself from the monorail society)

The media hand-outs had zero effect. I have yet to get any media or political attention despite letters to the Star Tribune, e-mails to the Met Council, and various one on one chats with my elected officials. The local group, Transit for livable communitees, are also quite dismissive. I believe, that they believe, that suspended rail does not fit their agenda.

Any suggestions to get my general message into the light rail debate would be appreciated. As it is, I hand out free t shirts, buttons, and carry a banner at transportation day at the capitol, and similar gatherings.

As a grassroots campaigner for suspended monorail, I do have a suggestion for the Hytran website. If the alternative phrase of "overhead suspended light rail" could be included, this would result in more search engine hits. I know the monorail society would rather that monorail and light rail be kept separate, but for the most part, I'm sure you might agree that suspended rail is the future, and 55 mph transit is the past.

[arkitec8]

Thank you SAFEGE, I look to find a way of speaking with you. There is more political energy afoot than one might think. We have and are having meetings with Mayors and Senitors, key people and possibilities.
How can I get an Email address to you. You're welcome to reach me through Hytran's if you wish. We are very much for real and this is not a test!

Best regards, Michael Meissner