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Poll results: My thoughts on the current nuclear situation with Iran

Voters
52. You may not vote on this poll
  • This will be the end of the world as we know it.

    0 0%
  • Damn serious, my guess is that some Israeli nukes will go off before it is over

    4 7.69%
  • Damn serious, my guess is that the US will end up taking out the Iranian nuclear program.

    12 23.08%
  • It will get tense, and Iran will blink.

    8 15.38%
  • Israel will go bye-bye in a double flash of Islamic nuclear power.

    1 1.92%
  • The UN or the Russians will work out a solution.

    4 7.69%
  • Good old fashioned diplomacy will solve this problem.

    1 1.92%
  • I don't have a clue how this is going to resolve itself.

    19 36.54%
  • Some completely different perspective which I will now share.

    2 3.85%
  • No opinion

    1 1.92%
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Thread: The situation with Iran

  1. #51

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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    As the clean-shaven, suit-wearing capitalists of the industrial west and East Asia
    LOL! Leave it to dobocq to bring into this argument over nuclear weapons and impending world war the truly EVIL and most PERNICIOUS forces in the world today-the razor blade and the necktie. Bravo! .

  2. #52

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    Plamegate and Iran.

    Interesting, no? (From antiwar.com)

    According to current and former intelligence officials, Plame Wilson, who worked on the clandestine side of the CIA in the Directorate of Operations as a non-official cover (NOC) officer, was part of an operation tracking distribution and acquisition of weapons of mass destruction technology to and from Iran.

    "Speaking under strict confidentiality, intelligence officials revealed heretofore unreported elements of Plame's work. Their accounts suggest that Plame's outing was more serious than has previously been reported and carries grave implications for U.S. national security and its ability to monitor Iran's burgeoning nuclear program."

    The exposure of Plame and her entire operation – Brewster Jennings & Associates, the CIA front company that cloaked this super-secret tracking program – effectively blinded the U.S. to the evolution of Iran's nuclear program. Not long after the outing of Plame – and just after a grand jury began hearing testimony in the Fitzgerald investigation – another security breach involving Iran made headlines: the Iranians had been alerted to the fact that the U.S. had broken the code governing their internal government communications, with the chief suspects being the neoconservative version of Che Guevara, Ahmed Chalabi, and his Iraqi National Congress, the source of much of the phony pre-invasion "intelligence" about Iraq. The truth about Iran's WMD (or lack of same) was rendered inaccessible, leaving the field open for the neocons and their foreign operatives to move into the vacuum and keep their very effective lie factory working overtime.

  3. #53
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    LOL! Leave it to dobocq to bring into this argument over nuclear weapons and impending world war the truly EVIL and most PERNICIOUS forces in the world today-the razor blade and the necktie. Bravo! .
    Seriously though BKM, don't you think that on some superficial level of acceptable cultural appearance norms, that the tendency for Arab men to more often have a beard serves to stimulate an unconscious feeling of antipathy among clean-shaven-westerners toward Arabs, in much the same way a bearded American is more likely to be thought a bum?

    If companies are more likely to hire a clean-shaven youngin' over some "scruffy unwashed heathen", then don't you think its possible this same cultural-appearance-fetishism carries over to the sphere of international political relations?

    I mean, most of our elected representatives are clean-shaven white males in suits.
    The President of Iran is an Arab man who wears a beard (or should I say - is unshaven). Seeing how much importance employers attach to appearance in this country, I think it's reasonable to suggest the same phenomenon of judging others who are different based on superficial appearances may be operative here as well.

    I'm not trying to denigrate either approach to facial hair. The head-bangers have mullets, the punks have nose rings, the geeks are fixated upon their game boys, the white male capitalists own stock in Gilette and shop at Brooks Brothers, and the religious mystics read the prophet Mohammed and dress modestly. They're all just subcultures. Subcultures tend to exclude those who don't conform to a certain set of traits that identify the group. I think Dewey, who lost to Truman in 1948, was the last mustachiod Presidential candidate we've had.

    Take the cultural difference between the jocks and the nerds such as in High School, increase it several times, blow it up to a global scale, and this is what you have between the U.S. and Iran. Some people wonder when the U.S. will have its first female or Latino or African American President - Well I wonder when we'll next have one who wears a beard.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  4. #54
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    Seriously though BKM, don't you think that on some superficial level of acceptable cultural appearance norms, that the tendency for Arab men to more often have a beard serves to stimulate an unconscious feeling of antipathy among clean-shaven-westerners toward Arabs, in much the same way a bearded American is more likely to be thought a bum?
    No.

    Do Americans think the Swedes are dumb because they are blonde?

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    Seriously though BKM, don't you think that on some superficial level of acceptable cultural appearance norms, that the tendency for Arab men to more often have a beard serves to stimulate an unconscious feeling of antipathy among clean-shaven-westerners toward Arabs, in much the same way a bearded American is more likely to be thought a bum?

    If companies are more likely to hire a clean-shaven youngin' over some "scruffy unwashed heathen", then don't you think its possible this same cultural-appearance-fetishism carries over to the sphere of international political relations?

    I mean, most of our elected representatives are clean-shaven white males in suits.
    The President of Iran is an Arab man who wears a beard (or should I say - is unshaven). Seeing how much importance employers attach to appearance in this country, I think it's reasonable to suggest the same phenomenon of judging others who are different based on superficial appearances may be operative here as well.

    I'm not trying to denigrate either approach to facial hair. The head-bangers have mullets, the punks have nose rings, the geeks are fixated upon their game boys, the white male capitalists own stock in Gilette and shop at Brooks Brothers, and the religious mystics read the prophet Mohammed and dress modestly. They're all just subcultures. Subcultures tend to exclude those who don't conform to a certain set of traits that identify the group. I think Dewey, who lost to Truman in 1948, was the last mustachiod Presidential candidate we've had.

    Take the cultural difference between the jocks and the nerds such as in High School, increase it several times, blow it up to a global scale, and this is what you have between the U.S. and Iran. Some people wonder when the U.S. will have its first female or Latino or African American President - Well I wonder when we'll next have one who wears a beard.
    Well. for one thing (as was noted up thread), the President of Iran is NOT an Arab but Persian, a completely different ethnic group (Aryan versus Semitic) speaking a completely different family of languages. heck, I got dinged on this up-thread, so should you.

    But, I would agree with you except that your observation reflects only current fashion. The Victorian era was full of bearded Presidents, Senators, and Governors. One of our recently elected city councilmen wears a full beard, so its not unknown here. It's a fashion thing, not some neafrious conspiracy. I would note that beards are ENFORCED with beatings by "Virtue Police" under some fundamentalist Islamic regimes. I would rather have our informal prejudices than the joys of mandatory compliance through violence.

    Otherwise, your observations are correct, imo, as far as they go. I'm not sure bearded leaders are a significant part of the current crisis, though, hence my gentle dig.

  6. #56
    Cyburbian jresta's avatar
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    I wonder what Filipino and Indonesian men do when they convert. They're not exacly known for their full beards.

    anyway, there's at least one successful politician with a beard.


    . . . but then i'm biased


    (btw - coming from philly where it's quite common in the winter i feel very out-of-place in europe with facial hair)
    Indeed you can usually tell when the concepts of democracy and citizenship are weakening. There is an increase in the role of charity and in the worship of volunteerism. These represent the élite citizen's imitation of noblesse oblige; that is, of pretending to be aristocrats or oligarchs, as opposed to being citizens.

  7. #57
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920
    My sense on the Iranian people is that since Iran is a very young country, with between 2/3 and 3/4 of the population having no memory of the Shah and only memories of the rule of the mullahs, and with a significant percentage of the population that DOES like the USA, wanting us to reopen our embassy (remember that Iran was one of the few places in the Islamic world where prayer vigils broke out spontaneously on 2001-09-11), it is only a matter of time that the religious rulers are overthrown. They have been running increasingly scared in recent years.
    America has had trade sanctions for many years against Iran, so I stand by my statement that America is the wrong country to be in there looking over their shoulder. As I understand it, from their perspective, America is exceedingly controlling and overstepping the bounds of propriety and has been trying to control and pressure them in a hostile fashion for a long time. I think they desire to make the point that America does not rule them and will not rule them. Regardless of how young the overall population is, in most countries, it is older men who run the country. The men in power likely are old enough to remember when the Shah was in power. And it seems to me that the expressed desire to control their nuclear program without outside interference and the position they have taken that it is a nuclear power program and not a nuclear weapons program and "please butt out" is very much in line with a desire to be self-determined -- something America has clearly been trying to deny them via pressure from trade sanctions. I think trade sanctions go back about 25 years and in all that time, they have not caved to the pressure. Why should they cave now?

  8. #58
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by abrowne
    No.

    Do Americans think the Swedes are dumb because they are blonde?
    Hair color is hereditary. Whether to shave or let facial hair grow, is cultural.

    I admit to not having read the thread through earlier. But now that I have, I would again echo the thought that Iran has good reason to want nukes. While it does seem that even the most NRAish among us would agree that the fewer nations/terrorists who have nukes the better, this is an untenable expectation to have for the long-term. You can speak about being logical all you want, but justifying a need for a preemptive military assault to prevent others from obtaining weapons that we already have is a failure of ethics.

    jresta seems to have particularly keen insights about Iran.

    Booty note: I think Iranian women are hot! Let's make love, not war.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  9. #59
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    RE: beards. Can anyone find out if beards really are the norm in Iran? Or could that be another inaccurate assumption, just like the reference to them being "Arabs"?


    Just curious and really not trying to start any kind of problem.



    EDIT: In photos like this one, it seems to me that most of the men are clean shaven or only have mustaches. I don't doubt that beards are more common in Iran than in the U.S., but I do seriously wonder if beards are as dominant there as Americans seem to assume they are.

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    Hair color is hereditary. Whether to shave or let facial hair grow, is cultural.

    I admit to not having read the thread through earlier. But now that I have, I would again echo the thought that Iran has good reason to want nukes. While it does seem that even the most NRAish among us would agree that the fewer nations/terrorists who have nukes the better, this is an untenable expectation to have for the long-term. You can speak about being logical all you want, but justifying a need for a preemptive military assault to prevent others from obtaining weapons that we already have is a failure of ethics.

    jresta seems to have particularly keen insights about Iran.

    Booty note: I think Iranian women are hot! Let's make love, not war.
    Not sure I disagree, even though the relentless media coverage about the disaster of Iran having nukes. Again, the REAL threat is already present: Pakistan has nukes. And, Pakistan has been selling secrets to scary groups. So...

    Quote Originally posted by Michelle Zone
    EDIT: In photos like this one, it seems to me that most of the men are clean shaven or only have mustaches. I don't doubt that beards are more common in Iran than in the U.S., but I do seriously wonder if beards are as dominant there as Americans seem to assume they are.
    This crowd seems pretty young? Maybe older males are bearded.

  11. #61
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    Wow lighten up on the political Bull Sh!t michaelskis were all in this together.
    I'm a vet and have served under the UN and we did a good job as does the UN. I have a feeling you have never served.... much like Rush.... but boy you can still solve all the problems with no real world experiance.

  12. #62
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by World Planner
    Wow lighten up on the political Bull Sh!t michaelskis were all in this together.
    I'm a vet and have served under the UN and we did a good job as does the UN. I have a feeling you have never served.... much like Rush.... but boy you can still solve all the problems with no real world experiance.
    Welcome to Cyburbia.

    I don't believe you are familiar with Michaelskis. I happen not agree with his politics much of the time. Like you, I too am a vet and have been attached to a command serving under the UN. If the topic of discussion here were concerning reverse slope defenses or fire team tactics, your opinion would undoubtedly carry more weight than his. However, I fail to see how military service or lack thereof has any bearing on the validity of one's political views.

    In short, playing the 'military card' and $1.50 is worth about a cup of coffee around here. Please feel free to voice your poltical opinions, but know that their relative merits will likely be judged by the strength of reasoning presented.

    Quote Originally posted by michele zone
    RE: beards. Can anyone find out if beards really are the norm in Iran? Or could that be another inaccurate assumption, just like the reference to them being "Arabs"?
    Beards are widely regarded throughout the Muslim world as a public symbol of piety. While the Koran does not specifically state "thou shalt grow a beard" the tradition of not shaving has persisted as an Islamic custom in most Muslim countries for over a thousand years. Yes, growing a beard is very common in both predominantly Sunni and Shi'ite parts of the world.
    Last edited by Maister; 16 Feb 2006 at 10:34 PM.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  13. #63
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister
    Beards are widely regarded throughout the Muslim world as a public symbol of piety. While the Koran does not specifically state "thou shalt grow a beard" the tradition of not shaving has persisted as an Islamic custom in most Muslim countries for over a thousand years. Yes, growing a beard is very common in both predominantly Sunni and Shi'ite parts of the world.
    Well, my curiosity was piqued because the Iranian men I know all have mustaches but not beards (and are in their 50's, BKM). So I e-mailed an Iranian man that I know and I asked him. According to him:
    No. Most iranians don't have beard. I can say less than 5 percent have beard. I think the same as in your country.
    Some of iranians have moustaches. maybe a little more than americans relatively.
    And although iranianas are muslim, it doesn't mean they practice their religous duties. in fact, most iranians are just simple muslims who are called muslims just because they are born muslim.

  14. #64
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    Well, my curiosity was piqued because the Iranian men I know all have mustaches but not beards. So I e-mailed an Iranian man that I know and I asked him. According to him:
    I checked with an Iranian source as well and he reported that beards were quite common where he grew up. I wonder if there are differences in this custom within the same country? (he's from the Baluchistan border region)
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  15. #65
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister
    I checked with an Iranian source as well and he reported that beards were quite common where he grew up. I wonder if there are differences in this custom within the same country? (he's from the Baluchistan border region)
    My friend is in Tehran. And I originally asked in the forums hoping someone would come up with something more objective than the "anecdotal" evidence available to me. I don't doubt that the "sample" of Iranians I am acquainted with is not exactly normed.

  16. #66
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by World Planner
    Wow lighten up on the political Bull Sh!t michaelskis were all in this together.
    I'm a vet and have served under the UN and we did a good job as does the UN. I have a feeling you have never served.... much like Rush.... but boy you can still solve all the problems with no real world experiance.
    Off-topic:

    Your right, I have not served, but I have PM’ed you the reasons behind that. I think that what the US military has done is phenomenal and I am a huge supporter of our armed forces. Additionally I apologize if I personally offended you, but you should be aware that I have held back quite a bit in the post had my discussions, although never intended to be personal attacks against any one person, make this thread look like I am agreeing with Maister and his distorted liberal mind.


    What would you suggest that we do about Iran? What is your opinion about their capabilities?
    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense.

  17. #67
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    oops

    I did not know this was a private club.... sorry.

  18. #68
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    off-topic
    Quote Originally posted by World Planner
    I did not know this was a private club.... sorry.
    This is no private club WP. You should feel welcome. It's just that your first post was rather obtusely pointed at m'skis, (that's short for michaelskis). As with meeting people in the flesh, when you are introducing yourself to a group, it is politic to be more restrained in your initial communications.

    Having said this, there is considerable latitude for debate, joking and even throwing some friendly barbed comments here, so long as there is nothing that overtly reeks of a direct personal attack.

    Be not discouraged. Post on with gusto.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  19. #69
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    I just hope that the US doesn't try a Saddam Hussein-ish card again against Iran... Puppets can be dangerous...

    Although that area has been unstable since Hussein's fall, because that way Iran was controlled by Iraq. Pakistan is an Islamic nation, and has nukes, which is ok, since their rival, India also has them, hence we have balance.

    Iran can't have nukes, or they'll invade Iraq and other countries that they wish (except Pakistan). It's a terrible thing that you can't let Iraq have nukes to in the current mess there....

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