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Thread: Our World Since September 11, 2001

  1. #1
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Our World Since September 11, 2001

    This thread is a spin-off of the thread that revisits the original postings and memories from the events of 9-11-01.
    _____

    How much has our world changed since that day?

    In the days and weeks after, many people in many countries were united. There was agreement that these types of terrorist acts were inhumane. The President of the United States provided eloquent speeches of how our citizens would rise above the ashes and boldly build a new world, free from terror. USA flags were everywhere.

    But as time went on, "situation normal" returned. The Democrats blamed the Republicans, the Republicans blamed the Democrats, Hollywood somehow was also blamed, flags came down, Christian fundamentalists jumped in, countries were invaded, definitions of terrorism and patriotism became mixed.

    My question is: Are we WORSE now than before September 11 because of September 11 (and the terror threat) or because of the way we have responded over the ensuing years?

    Bear
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    Cyburbian AubieTurtle's avatar
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    I knew things were going to turn out badly when we were told the best thing we could do for our country was go shop at the mall.
    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - H.L. Mencken

  3. #3
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    Things got a lot more whiney.

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    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    I think things are better than before September 11. The economy's stronger, our national defense is stronger, and individual freedoms are stronger. Despite the division that has since occurred and the tough challenges, I think we have accomplished a lot more in this country and recognized issues more than ever before. The partisan division, to me, (yet still coming to terms and being able to get things done), is a sign that democracy remains strong in this country.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
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  5. #5
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    I would say "worse" for a few reasons.

    1. It gave the PNAC a chance to test their wierd theories of using the military, rather than America's good example, as a way to spread "democracy." That has failed.

    2. It gave almost dictatorial powers to a third rate politician who would have had one unremarkable term without 9/11. That power has not been used wisely, to the country's great disadvantage. Almost every major challenge since 9/11 has been handled by unqualified appointees. If you look beyond the government propaganda machine, it is hard to see many real successes from this administration.

    3. The powers taken by the President have been used to finalize the loss of representative government. There will be a 99% return rate for incumbents in the next election, even though there is a less than 40% approval rating for the current administration. That kind of re-election rate was common in Communist countries and other dictatorships. (Note, this is not a Republican or Democrat issue. Both parties support it. A minority party candidate wants to ge re-elected just as much as a majority party candidate and will support party-based districting.) But this is politicians choosing their voters, not voters choosing their politicians.

    4. The government is largely run by bribery. Politicians take money from a variety of interests and the politicians vote to give those interests some form of government benefit. We call it lobbying, but it is so pervasive that it is actually bribery.

    5. The president has violated the law and the Constitution and is not held accountable. Congresspeople have violated the law and are not being held accountable. The rule of law no longer applies in the government. People who should be examples for the country are setting a very bad example.

    6. Corporations are given unreal access to government, and the government is covering for them. Permission to pollute the air is called the clear skies act. Permission to allow arsenic in water is the clean water act. Reduction in mine safety inspections is propably called the miner's safety act. Control over your computer is called the DMCA.

    7. The government is disseminating government sponsored propaganda. Again, comparisons to Communism is in order. The ruling one party government sends out "talking points" to favored news media. One party government sounds somewhat Communist as well.

    8. The press is being consolidated into the hands of a very few. Those few have other interests (see #6 above). A corporation that makes armaments and also owns a substantial of the news outlets is likely to support news (or receive talking points) which support war in order to increase their other corporate profits.

    All that being said, America is a decent country of decent people. It would not be hard to get things back in line if there were an independent political force that wants to get it back. City and State politics are the place where these forces are most likely to emerge, so keep your eyes on smaller governments for the people who can really make a change.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    I think things are better than before September 11. The economy's stronger...
    o_O

    O rly?

  7. #7
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by abrowne
    o_O

    O rly?
    What? Oh really? Yes, really.

    Lowest unemployment rate ever.
    Flat-rate tax cuts for everyone, wealthy or not.
    Child tax credits.
    Dow Jones recovering back up to 11,000.
    A real economy, not just a dot-com bubble and a bunch of bafoon companies like World Com, Enron, and Arthur Anderson.
    A global economy.
    Massive increase in small business starts and success, thanks to tax breaks.
    Continued gains in technology and innovation.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  8. #8
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    Right, but these things didn't occur on their own. Massive tax breaks and subsidies did the trick. Every moment of every hour America makes a withdrawal on its future prosperity. About $85 million worth of moments every hour, actually.

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    Member CosmicMojo's avatar
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    I recommend the documentary "Why We Fight"--it put our current situation in context for me, going back to WWII, Eisenhower, and the military industrial complex.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    What? Oh really? Yes, really.

    Lowest unemployment rate ever.
    Flat-rate tax cuts for everyone, wealthy or not.
    Child tax credits.
    Dow Jones recovering back up to 11,000.
    A real economy, not just a dot-com bubble and a bunch of bafoon companies like World Com, Enron, and Arthur Anderson.
    A global economy.
    Massive increase in small business starts and success, thanks to tax breaks.
    Continued gains in technology and innovation.
    Real economic facts:
    -Biggest financial bubble in history occuring worldwide.
    -Unemployment stats rigged. (As well as lots of other economic stats.)
    -Dow Jones should be at 13,000 to keep up with inflation, real value loss of 20%.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jaws
    Real economic facts:
    -Biggest financial bubble in history occuring worldwide.
    -Unemployment stats rigged. (As well as lots of other economic stats.)
    -Dow Jones should be at 13,000 to keep up with inflation, real value loss of 20%.
    -Well, the U.S. is not in a financial bubble, at least not as bad as the 1990s. A real estate bubble...please. We're not spending money we didn't have like we did in the 90s.
    -Unemployment stats are not rigged. I don't believe it.
    -Well, considering the three of the largest office buildings in the world were destroyed and the 90s bubble burst, I think the Dow was bound to take a hit. It's back on the rise now, though.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  12. #12
    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    -Well, the U.S. is not in a financial bubble, at least not as bad as the 1990s. A real estate bubble...please. We're not spending money we didn't have like we did in the 90s.
    Record-breaking current account deficits say that you are, more than ever.
    -Unemployment stats are not rigged. I don't believe it.
    Believe it or not, they still are. You can get all the information about it you need from the government itself.
    -Well, considering the three of the largest office buildings in the world were destroyed and the 90s bubble burst, I think the Dow was bound to take a hit. It's back on the rise now, though.
    It's still only trying to keep up with inflation. Most stock markets around the world have had phenomenal results last year. (Canada, France, Germany, Japan more than 20% up.)

    Take off the rose-tinted glasses and look at your world reasonably. There's something terribly wrong with this country.

  13. #13
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jaws
    Record-breaking current account deficits say that you are, more than ever.
    Believe it or not, they still are. You can get all the information about it you need from the government itself.
    It's still only trying to keep up with inflation. Most stock markets around the world have had phenomenal results last year. (Canada, France, Germany, Japan more than 20% up.)

    Take off the rose-tinted glasses and look at your world reasonably. There's something terribly wrong with this country.
    -We owe that money to ourselves. Any real economist will tell you that defecits do not matter.
    -No, they aren't. Enough of the conspiracy theories.
    -Well, are those countries you mentioned busy spreading freedom around the world right now, combating muslim extremists, grappling with terrorist attacks and threats, battling 100-year natural disasters, and fixing 1960s failed democratic social programs??? I think not. The deficits can wait. I'd also rather have a steady increase in the stock market than mile-high increases which usually lead to disaster.

    And please worry about your own country's problems and let us handle ours, thanks.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  14. #14
    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    -We owe that money to ourselves. Any real economist will tell you that defecits do not matter.
    You do not owe that money to yourselves. You owe it to foreign central bankers.

    I've never met an economist (even a nutty one, and I've met a few) who believed deficits do not matter. Only politicians say that. My country barely escaped a deficit death spiral in the 1980's. Yours may not be so lucky. The sooner you accept that you have a problem, the sooner you can be on the road to recovery.
    -No, they aren't. Enough of the conspiracy theories.
    It's not a conspiracy theory if the government informs you they're doing it. You just have to read the fine print.
    -Well, are those countries you mentioned busy spreading freedom around the world right now, combating muslim extremists, grappling with terrorist attacks and threats, battling 100-year natural disasters, and fixing 1960s failed democratic social programs??? I think not. The deficits can wait. I'd also rather have a steady increase in the stock market than mile-high increases which usually lead to disaster.
    But you're not getting an increase in the stock market. In real terms you're losing out to inflation, and everybody else is getting a moderate increase in their stocks.

    Maybe if you stopped spreading so much freedom around, you would have more freedom for yourselves.

  15. #15
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jaws
    You do not owe that money to yourselves. You owe it to foreign central bankers.
    Only a small percentage do we owe to foreign bankers. Maybe 25%. Any of these countries can't wait, we'll do war with them. And yes, that includes China.

    I've never met an economist (even a nutty one, and I've met a few) who believed deficits do not matter. Only politicians say that. My country barely escaped a deficit death spiral in the 1980's. Yours may not be so lucky. The sooner you accept that you have a problem, the sooner you can be on the road to recovery.
    I don't know about your country, but I've met, or read from, plenty of economists who say that the deficits do not matter. We're the U.S. We'll get out of it. Additionally, we have accepted and made steps to cut a lot of stupid programs. We'd like to do away with major ones like Social Security, Medicare, and welfare, but there are too many whiners on the left that won't let us.

    It's not a conspiracy theory if the government informs you they're doing it. You just have to read the fine print.
    I still don't believe it.

    But you're not getting an increase in the stock market. In real terms you're losing out to inflation, and everybody else is getting a moderate increase in their stocks.
    No, we are getting a steady increase in the stock market. The way it looks to me, things are going fine. Remember these countries you mentioned had no 9/11, Katrina et al, War on Terror, or recovery/reform from diastrous policies from several prior administrations.

    Maybe if you stopped spreading so much freedom around, you would have more freedom for yourselves.
    We're making serious investments in our economic, political, and national security interests right now. Additionally, no one should have to live in oppression. No matter how you slice it, spreading freedom is good for both the U.S. and the people who were oppressed.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  16. #16
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    I think things are better than before September 11. The economy's stronger, our national defense is stronger, and individual freedoms are stronger.
    What you talkin' about Willis?? I guess this must chaulk up to you being only 12 or 13 when this happened, but that sent the nation's banking industry, auto industry, right into the toilet. Artifically low interests rates were there to help stimulate the economy. They were not kind to Wall Street. Recruiters are having a hard time getting folks to sign up for the military simply because they know they will never be able to get out, or may die; how does this make our defense stronger? Individiual freedoms? hello?? Patriot Act?? a President that thinks wire tapping is okay without a court order?

    you mention later that the market is over 11k how about to us that loaded up at 12k?
    lowest unemployment? I don't think so.
    and Deficiets do matter. We are writing checks without having money in the account, so we have to go to out of country interests to pay our bills. In 2001 GWB and others cut the taxes that were being used to pay this debt off, hoping to get the .com bust behind us. Then he started spending money like crazy, with less money coming in and more folks getting laid-off. The United States is no longer in charge of its own destiny, yet in early 2001 it was heading that way, now its done a 180, and has picked up steam.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  17. #17
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    Only a small percentage do we owe to foreign bankers. Maybe 25%. Any of these countries can't wait, we'll do war with them. And yes, that includes China.
    "Indeed, as this page has noted, foreign governments and foreign private investors have been purchasing the vast majority of Treasury securities issued to finance record-level U.S. budget deficits in recent years. Interest payments on that debt will be made to foreigners. Given that short-term interest rates have increased by 3.5 percentage points since mid-2004 and will likely increase at least another half-point before by mid-year, the income-payments deficit is likely to soar. So, too, will the current-account deficit. As a result, the structural imbalances in the U.S. economy are likely to worsen. "
    http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/200...2211-8479r.htm

    What worries many analysts is the amount of US debt financed by foreign governments and banks, particularly in Asia.

    The national debt is split between publicly held debt - money which is owed to US and foreign investors - and money owed to branches of the Government. Nearly half the publicly owed debt is held by foreigners.

    Japan is the biggest creditor, at $US668 billion.

    China, the second-biggest, recently increased its stake by $US40 billion to $US263 billion.

    "We used to have much less held by foreigners," Alice Rivlin, a former budget director for Mr Clinton, said.

    "It makes you much more vulnerable to people's agendas."

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...5E2703,00.html


    I don't know about your country, but I've met, or read from, plenty of economists who say that the deficits do not matter. We're the U.S. We'll get out of it. Additionally, we have accepted and made steps to cut a lot of stupid programs. We'd like to do away with major ones like Social Security, Medicare, and welfare, but there are too many whiners on the left that won't let us.
    I've also heard from plenty of people that if I don't forward this email to X then Y will start charging Z cents per email. OMG, it must be true! Debt matters. Only fools like John Ralston Saul say otherwise. YOU are the one advancing a theory contrary to common knowledge and it is YOU that must back this up. Incidentally, the people who say that debt does not matter are often socialists. And we all know how well they figured out economics. I hear Eastern Europe was a roarin' place whilst behind the iron curtain.

    I still don't believe it.
    Governments use tricks all the time to redefine figures. Unemployment numbers are the most frequently manipulated. The major way to do this is to match "unemployed" with "actively looking for work." The true number of unemployed is typically double (at least) the publicized figure. Other times unemployment is defined only as those on employment insurance or welfare, and so on. The tricks are endless, and similar tricks are used with most figures and statistics.

    No, we are getting a steady increase in the stock market. The way it looks to me, things are going fine. Remember these countries you mentioned had no 9/11, Katrina et al, War on Terror, or recovery/reform from diastrous policies from several prior administrations.
    I won't comment on the stock market in specific, but I want you to hold on a second. No, no one else has had a Katrina. But they've had earthquakes, floods, terrorist attacks, and other disasters that you would know about as a world citizen if you would just so much as pay attention. To assume that only the USA has had a hard time is just crass. And stupid politicians and their harmful policies would seem to be universal.

    We're making serious investments in our economic, political, and national security interests right now. Additionally, no one should have to live in oppression. No matter how you slice it, spreading freedom is good for both the U.S. and the people who were oppressed.
    Spreading freedom? That sounds very strange. How does one spread it? Unprotected military intercourse? Is freedom what you are spreading? Can freedom even be spread? What on earth does spreading it even mean? And is there only one concept of freedom? How about the freedom to reasonable education and health care? Have you spread that at home yet? Will these newly 'freed' countries be free of the burden of healthcare and education, too? The issue here is not health care and education, in case you missed that, but simply whatever the hell freedom means and the very real fact that freedom means different things to different people.

    For example, apparently Canada does not have the freedom to run its tree logging system as it wishes and as a result $1.2 billion in illegal tariffs (see multiple WTO and NAFTA panel rulings) leave our country for the USA every year. This is a poor example, but I'm sitting in studio, very tired and very angry with various software packages.

    My point is that you are throwing a lot of words around and it would seem you've not thought about what they mean.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner
    What you talkin' about Willis?? I guess this must chaulk up to you being only 12 or 13 when this happened
    Actually I was 14, and very interested in politics, current events, history, and social science well before this happened. Please don't discriminate by age. There are 7 year olds smarter than most people.

    but that sent the nation's banking industry, auto industry, right into the toilet. Artifically low interests rates were there to help stimulate the economy. They were not kind to Wall Street.
    Wall Street can wait. Making sure the economy could get jump-started and people can back on their feet was more important at the time. Of course an event like that is going to send it into the whole. Things are better now aren't they? Prospects look great to me.

    Recruiters are having a hard time getting folks to sign up for the military simply because they know they will never be able to get out, or may die; how does this make our defense stronger?
    Oh really? I have a friend over there right now, a neighbor who spent time over there, and at least 5 friends in training right now. They know the costs. But they believe in their mission. I'd go too, but I don't think I have the physical strength to do so.

    Individiual freedoms? hello?? Patriot Act?? a President that thinks wire tapping is okay without a court order?
    Hello? We're at war. I sure hope the President is doing everything possible to detect and thwart terrorist activities within our country and abroad.

    Also...individual freedoms include freedom from the government taking more of my hard earned money, by giving us tax breaks. Individual freedom means allowing people to start their own business thorugh tax breaks. Individual freedom means having the freedom to own and use firearms remain unabridged. Individual freedom means allowing to organize a prayer at school without being sued. Individual freedom means plans for individual private accounts for social security and Medicare.

    you mention later that the market is over 11k how about to us that loaded up at 12k?
    I'm sorry that people rode the disastrous skyrocket in 1997-1999, and that people failed to recognize the ensuing recession that was bound to happen. I'm sorry Bill Clinton failed to fight the terrorist abroad when it was much easier to do so and when 9/11 didn't happen yet. I'm sorry the Muslim world hates us and destroyed some of our largest office buildings and further accelearted the decline. I'm sorry certain large companies engaged in reckless and corrupt behavior which also accelearated this decline.

    lowest unemployment?
    Well in certain areas like MI, it's worse. But the nat'l average is 5%...the lowest it has been.

    and Deficiets do matter. We are writing checks without having money in the account, so we have to go to out of country interests to pay our bills. In 2001 GWB and others cut the taxes that were being used to pay this debt off, hoping to get the .com bust behind us. Then he started spending money like crazy, with less money coming in and more folks getting laid-off. The United States is no longer in charge of its own destiny, yet in early 2001 it was heading that way, now its done a 180, and has picked up steam.
    Americans deserved a tax break. At the time, we were too blind to realize what would happen so soon...the Recession and 9/11.

    I don't necessarily agree with all the big government surrounding No Child Left Behind. But some bills...a new energy bill, Medicare, and relief for disaster victims are necessary. And you can't control Mother Nature. Can you ever recall of such a period of such destructive weather? And it's not human-generated-greenhouse-gas-induced-Global Warming...we are just simply naturally exiting a colder period and entering a warmer one. Climate goes through cycles like this.

    And the Iraq War and the War on Terror is a huge investment in America's future, as well as the entire world. There will be a more peaceful time again and a period where we'll have the money to pay everything off. The United States is being the most proactive it has ever been in a long time. And that costs money. It's hard to change. This isn't the 20th Century anymore. We have finally realized you can't ignore the terrorists, you can't turn a blind eye to totalitarianism and brutal dictators, you can't tax the hell out of the American people, you can't tax the hell out of American businesses, you can't let the stock market climb higher than a kite overnight, you can't predict mother nature, you can't expect loaded social programs to fix poverty, you can't rely on allies to help you, you can't restrict freedom, and you can't expect all this change to happen at once and not to go briefly into debt. But there will be a day when we can pay this off.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  19. #19
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    Americans deserved a tax break. At the time, we were too blind to realize what would happen so soon...the Recession and 9/11.

    The United States is being the most proactive it has ever been in a long time. And that costs money. It's hard to change. This isn't the 20th Century anymore. We have finally realized you can't ignore the terrorists, you can't turn a blind eye to totalitarianism and brutal dictators, you can't tax the hell out of the American people, you can't tax the hell out of American businesses, you can't let the stock market climb higher than a kite overnight, you can't predict mother nature, you can't expect loaded social programs to fix poverty, you can't rely on allies to help you, you can't restrict freedom, and you can't expect all this change to happen at once and not to go briefly into debt. But there will be a day when we can pay this off.
    I am probably the most fiscally conservative person here. Financing the govt through minimal taxation with maximum capital outlays is foolish.

    We are not getting the hell taxed out of us right now. We are paying fewer taxes (federal, state, and local) now than at any other time. How can we be proactive, if we can't even fully fund SAFETEA-LU (and that has its own revenue stream?)

    Where will all the money come from to fight terrorism? to fund disasters?
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  20. #20
    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    I don't know about your country, but I've met, or read from, plenty of economists who say that the deficits do not matter. We're the U.S. We'll get out of it. Additionally, we have accepted and made steps to cut a lot of stupid programs. We'd like to do away with major ones like Social Security, Medicare, and welfare, but there are too many whiners on the left that won't let us.

    I still don't believe it.

    No, we are getting a steady increase in the stock market. The way it looks to me, things are going fine. Remember these countries you mentioned had no 9/11, Katrina et al, War on Terror, or recovery/reform from diastrous policies from several prior administrations.
    So let me see if I get this straight. You don't have to accept anything I say because that's not the way it "looks" to you. Reality can be anything depending on what you see. Also, this is America, the rules don't apply to America. America can do anything.

    I don't see how I can argue this any further. This kind of argument is not rational, it is based on pure faith and even mysticism. All I can really do is wish you good luck for the future, you will need much of it.

  21. #21
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by abrowne
    "Indeed, as this page has noted, foreign governments and foreign private investors have been purchasing the vast majority of Treasury securities issued to finance record-level U.S. budget deficits in recent years. Interest payments on that debt will be made to foreigners. Given that short-term interest rates have increased by 3.5 percentage points since mid-2004 and will likely increase at least another half-point before by mid-year, the income-payments deficit is likely to soar. So, too, will the current-account deficit. As a result, the structural imbalances in the U.S. economy are likely to worsen. "
    http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/200...2211-8479r.htm

    What worries many analysts is the amount of US debt financed by foreign governments and banks, particularly in Asia.

    The national debt is split between publicly held debt - money which is owed to US and foreign investors - and money owed to branches of the Government. Nearly half the publicly owed debt is held by foreigners.

    Japan is the biggest creditor, at $US668 billion.

    China, the second-biggest, recently increased its stake by $US40 billion to $US263 billion.

    "We used to have much less held by foreigners," Alice Rivlin, a former budget director for Mr Clinton, said.

    "It makes you much more vulnerable to people's agendas."

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...5E2703,00.html
    Yeah, yeah. So we still owe 25% to the foreigners and the rest to ourselves. We'll pay it off someday. Don't worry.


    I've also heard from plenty of people that if I don't forward this email to X then Y will start charging Z cents per email. OMG, it must be true! Debt matters. Only fools like John Ralston Saul say otherwise. YOU are the one advancing a theory contrary to common knowledge and it is YOU that must back this up. Incidentally, the people who say that debt does not matter are often socialists. And we all know how well they figured out economics. I hear Eastern Europe was a roarin' place whilst behind the iron curtain.
    Sorry, the economists I know are teachers and professors and they don't have their research publicly available or are using research from people they haven't told me who or I forgot who. And there are plenty of regular folk like me who agree so.

    Governments use tricks all the time to redefine figures. Unemployment numbers are the most frequently manipulated. The major way to do this is to match "unemployed" with "actively looking for work." The true number of unemployed is typically double (at least) the publicized figure. Other times unemployment is defined only as those on employment insurance or welfare, and so on. The tricks are endless, and similar tricks are used with most figures and statistics.
    Yeah, it makes a lot of sense to define unemployment as only those looking for work. Those that are not looking for work are never gonna have jobs anyways, so it doesn't matter. They obviously don't want to work or don't need to, so why include them in the unemployment figures? If you're too lazy to "actively look" that's your problem.

    I won't comment on the stock market in specific, but I want you to hold on a second. No, no one else has had a Katrina. But they've had earthquakes, floods, terrorist attacks, and other disasters that you would know about as a world citizen if you would just so much as pay attention. To assume that only the USA has had a hard time is just crass. And stupid politicians and their harmful policies would seem to be universal.
    And who are the saviors who help pay for these countries to recover? The United States people, United States businesses, and the United States government. We threw a lot of money at the Tsunami, and I'm sure we've helped in the earthquakes as well. At least we tried (Bam, Iran).

    Spreading freedom? That sounds very strange. How does one spread it? Unprotected military intercourse? Is freedom what you are spreading? Can freedom even be spread? What on earth does spreading it even mean? And is there only one concept of freedom? How about the freedom to reasonable education and health care? Have you spread that at home yet? Will these newly 'freed' countries be free of the burden of healthcare and education, too? The issue here is not health care and education, in case you missed that, but simply whatever the hell freedom means and the very real fact that freedom means different things to different people.
    Sorry, but education and healthcare are not God-given rights. Everyone should have the freedom to educate or medicate themselves or not to, and to choose whatever extent they like, and whichever method they like, so long as it is within reason. Your God given rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If the oppressed were allowed, I don't think these people would believe that being controlled by a dictator and not having the freedom to make your own decisions regarding your own life constitutes freedom. I don't think God believes so either. Democracy has allowed the United States to be one of the freest and most prosperous countries on Earth. It is our duty to use our freedom to be able to help other people internationally establish their own forms of democratic government, free from tyranny.

    My point is that you are throwing a lot of words around and it would seem you've not thought about what they mean.
    No, I don't believe in things blindly. I believe in things because I've seen our country and our way of life, and I see these other countries and how they live, and know that it ain't right.

    Quote Originally posted by jaws
    So let me see if I get this straight. You don't have to accept anything I say because that's not the way it "looks" to you. Reality can be anything depending on what you see. Also, this is America, the rules don't apply to America. America can do anything.

    I don't see how I can argue this any further. This kind of argument is not rational, it is based on pure faith and even mysticism. All I can really do is wish you good luck for the future, you will need much of it.
    No, I don't. Everyone has their own circumstances which affect their view of reality. Everyone forms their own opinions. And frankly, my friend, if you see something some way and I see something the other way. OK...it's OK to disagree.

    And yes, America plays by its own rules as she should. We are the United States and our destiny is to be free.

    Yeah, so I put my beliefs (which form my arguments) in freedom, God, and the United States. I don't need luck...I got faith.

    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner
    I am probably the most fiscally conservative person here. Financing the govt through minimal taxation with maximum capital outlays is foolish.

    We are not getting the hell taxed out of us right now. We are paying fewer taxes (federal, state, and local) now than at any other time. How can we be proactive, if we can't even fully fund SAFETEA-LU (and that has its own revenue stream?)

    Where will all the money come from to fight terrorism? to fund disasters?
    No, we are not getting the hell taxed out of us now. But at times during the 20th Century we were, and we deserved a tax break, and the economy needed a jumpstart.

    Some of the "maximum capital outlays", I agree are "too maximum". Too much government. We are in a transitional period where people still depend on many of the foolish costly government programs of the 20th Century, but at the same time we must come to terms with the pressing needs of the 21st Century. So, it's gonna cost us double. Once we can weed out the unnecessary fluff of the 20th Century and control our current spending, we will be back to normal. It'll happen someday. So long as we don't get bombarded with another 9/11 or Katrina or unruly nation, we should be on the path to fiscal balance.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  22. #22
    Cyburbian AubieTurtle's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    I'd go too, but I don't think I have the physical strength to do so.
    Anal cyst holding you back?
    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - H.L. Mencken

  23. #23
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by AubieTurtle
    Anal cyst holding you back?
    No, my hindering health condition is none of your business and irrelevant to the argument.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  24. #24
    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner
    I am probably the most fiscally conservative person here. Financing the govt through minimal taxation with maximum capital outlays is foolish.

    We are not getting the hell taxed out of us right now. We are paying fewer taxes (federal, state, and local) now than at any other time. How can we be proactive, if we can't even fully fund SAFETEA-LU (and that has its own revenue stream?)

    Where will all the money come from to fight terrorism? to fund disasters?
    I agree with you - giving a tax break when you know you need some serious cash for a war (let alone our own disasters which were unknown) was not smart - so all the balancing of budgets that Clinton did went out the window -

    this administration lost all credibility with me when on 9-12-01 in a meeting they all said "let's invade Iraq" - wtf was up with that? even Bush #1 was saying wtf?

    afghanistan, sure - but this Iraq deal with it's "link" to 9-11-01 was false and it's a price we will pay for many years to come

    I miss the days of sex and candy of the Clinton years - when the biggest thing was Clinton doing his intern - please...

    the other thing that we saw changed was that all this homeland security training we all get in our jobs didn't do a blessed good for the people in NO and Miss. - it's as if we forgot what FEMA was for when we loaded it into the homeland security office

    I do think, however, that many would-be events in this country have been successfully thwarted with the FBI and the CIA at least stopping to talk in the hallways now - that should be considered a positive mark

    and on the economy - the real influence an administration has is instilling confidence - and it's been up and down since 9/11, imho

  25. #25
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by luckless pedestrian
    I agree with you - giving a tax break when you know you need some serious cash for a war (let alone our own disasters which were unknown) was not smart - so all the balancing of budgets that Clinton did went out the window -
    Actually, the tax cut was given before the war and before 9/11. Everything would have worked out fine (Iraq and tax cut) if not for 9/11 & Katrina.

    this administration lost all credibility with me when on 9-12-01 in a meeting they all said "let's invade Iraq" - wtf was up with that? even Bush #1 was saying wtf?

    afghanistan, sure - but this Iraq deal with it's "link" to 9-11-01 was false and it's a price we will pay for many years to come
    Iraq was a safe harbor for terrorists and a country that had a history of oppression and a failure to comply with world law. Iraq was a country of terror and this is the War on Terror.

    I miss the days of sex and candy of the Clinton years - when the biggest thing was Clinton doing his intern - please...
    Sorry, the days of doing nothing and waiting for something really bad to happen and then doing something about it are over. We're paying the price now for the sex & candy Clinton era.

    the other thing that we saw changed was that all this homeland security training we all get in our jobs didn't do a blessed good for the people in NO and Miss. - it's as if we forgot what FEMA was for when we loaded it into the homeland security office
    I agree. FEMA should focus on natural disasters and not be part of homeland security. We should have something else very similar for terrorist attacks and other human-induced disasters as well, though.

    do think, however, that many would-be events in this country have been successfully thwarted with the FBI and the CIA at least stopping to talk in the hallways now - that should be considered a positive mark


    and on the economy - the real influence an administration has is instilling confidence - and it's been up and down since 9/11, imho
    Let's just say it's fairly steady. I'd rather have steady than a disastrous skyrocketing stock market like we've seen before.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

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