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Thread: PETA peeps

  1. #1
    Cyburbian
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    PETA peeps

    OK I was walking downtown a few days ago when a person approaches me and tries to push a flyer into my hands. I politely refuse and probably look at him a bit oddly as a "what is your problem look". His pushiness reminded me of those guys in Vegas who try to get your attention to hand you a flyer on things only done & seen around the Vegas area, if you catch my drift. Well to keep this short, I look over and there is a person lying down covered in a large sheet of syran wrap in a mock up styrofoam produce container (like you by ground turkey or beef in with the clear plastic wrap on top). This is on the corner of a busy street, attracting attention and slowing traffic.

    I started to thing such things really should not be allowed as such, or permitted. What is the difference between this and someone setting up a stand on the corner and dispersing info or giving out free samples, ie advertising. A R.O.W. issues... I do not discount their constitutional rights... Thoughts???

  2. #2
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Vlaude

    I started to thing such things really should not be allowed as such, or permitted. I do not discount their constitutional rights...
    ^-- This is a contradiction.

    As ruled by the courts on many occasions.
    Reality does not conform to your ideology.
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  3. #3
    Member CosmicMojo's avatar
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    People have a right to free speech, but not to the degree that it disturbs other people. How to define that degree is the challenge.

    I don't like PETA's aggressive ways, particularly how they show graphic photos to children. Sounds like they should be required to get a demonstration permit for that show they were putting on.

    We have a street preacher downtown who stands on the corner and yells sermons and I think he's going way beyond his right to free speech and is disturbing the public. You can be sure if someone was playing their boom box that loudly they'd be citing for public disturbance, but the city is afraid of being called anti-religious.

    In public spaces, we have the right to freedom from public disturbance. The right to free speech does not mean the right to disturb people anywhere or any time you want. The right to free speech means the police can't come in and arrest you for stating your opinion, not that you can yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally posted by CosmicMojo
    People have a right to free speech, but not to the degree that it disturbs other people. How to define that degree is the challenge.
    I agree that it is an issue of degree, but is it not also a issue of accessability. Granted Peta is a large organization who has other avenues to broadcast there message, but in the case of the individual who can't afford mainstream media channels, yet has the freedom of speech, public space offers an ideal opportunity to communicate to the masses. Everyone should have a soapbox to stand on, if they so desire, and those who don't want to listen can escape to there private enclaves.

  5. #5
    Cyburbian
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    JordanB, yeap... What I wrote is not what I meant. What I meant was this type of assembly in the R.O.W. should require a permit in that they are using City R.O.W. to advertise or get some type of gain at the publics expense. Just like a hot dog vendor, etc... Hope that clarifies my intent. I do believe they have the right to voice their concerns.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CosmicMojo
    We have a street preacher downtown who stands on the corner and yells sermons and I think he's going way beyond his right to free speech and is disturbing the public.
    We've got one of those. He's been on State St. for like 25 years now. He's such an institution that I'm sure there'll be plenty of homages written to him when he finally gives it up or dies.

    Vlaude: For constitutional purposes, I believe that the courts consider political speech very different than commercial advertising. Political speech is that for which the first amendment exists. It wasn't written to ensure that you can hawk your hot dogs at any time in any place and that's why municipal restrictions on that sort of thing are allowed. Political speech is considered more sacrosanct (regardless of if you agree with the protesters or not) and thus, there are more restrictions on how it can be regulated.

    Quote Originally posted by CosmicMojo
    People have a right to free speech, but not to the degree that it disturbs other people.
    By definition, free speech will disturb people. If the speech does not disturb anyone then there would be need for special protections in the law because no one would challenge it. The right to free speech exists precisely to protect speech that is disturbing.
    Reality does not conform to your ideology.
    http://neighborhoods.chicago.il.us Photographs of Life in the Neighborhoods of Chicago
    http://hafd.org/~jordanb/ Pretentious Weblog.

  7. #7
    Cyburbian
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    Yes I am quite familar with that Jordan. I'm not sure that I agree with what you are saying regarding disturbing however.

    My question, or what I was curious about is the regulating of such activities, ie a permit being required??? Would this require a permit in your town?



    (sidenote to the mod - this is a land use issue, is it not? Just curious why you put it under another topic?)

  8. #8
    Cyburbian Planderella's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Vlaude
    Yes I am quite familar with that Jordan. I'm not sure that I agree with what you are saying regarding disturbing however.

    My question, or what I was curious about is the regulating of such activities, ie a permit being required??? Would this require a permit in your town?



    (sidenote to the mod - this is a land use issue, is it not? Just curious why you put it under another topic?)
    Moderator note:
    Wouldn't know it from the title.....from the Forum Rules and Guidelines....
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    Descriptive thread titles must be used. "Teaser" thread titles outside of the Friday Afternoon Club forum are not permitted.
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  9. #9
    Member CosmicMojo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jordanb
    By definition, free speech will disturb people. If the speech does not disturb anyone then there would be need for special protections in the law because no one would challenge it. The right to free speech exists precisely to protect speech that is disturbing.
    The Supreme Court has clarified that free speech is not absolute, there may be restrictions. And distrubing the public's peace (not their sensibility) is not allowed. I can't remember which jurist it was, but he said: "your right to free speech does not extend to the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

    And the Constitution does not grant us free accessibility to all audiences. I can't force NBC to carry my speil, but I am free to state my opinions. If I can't afford ad space in the NY times, my right to free speech isn't being jeopardized, because I am still free to state my opinion. That's like saying just because I have the right to choose my own coats, that I can march into Saks and take whatever Fur coat I want without paying.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    ^-- Yes of course there may be restrictions. But those restrictions are limited. Case in point is that New York City has many restrictions on "parading" that they've attempted to use against the Critical Mass bikeride. Judges have repeatedly called portions of their parade laws unconstitutional, and hinted that the whole shebang might be unconstitutional.

    "Disturbing the peace" is relative. You think a guy handing out handbills and laying on the sidewalk is "disturbing the peace." I find that very dubious. Perhaps you could direct me to the case where it was decided that such activities constitute "disturbing the peace" to the extent that they don't have first amendment protections?
    Reality does not conform to your ideology.
    http://neighborhoods.chicago.il.us Photographs of Life in the Neighborhoods of Chicago
    http://hafd.org/~jordanb/ Pretentious Weblog.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian
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    So permit??? No permit??? Just curious...



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    Guess I'll just post my topics under Friday Afternoon stuff

  12. #12
    Member CosmicMojo's avatar
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    Sounds like a demonstration, which would require a permit in most cities

  13. #13
    Member CosmicMojo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jordanb
    You think a guy handing out handbills and laying on the sidewalk is "disturbing the peace." I find that very dubious. Perhaps you could direct me to the case where it was decided that such activities constitute "disturbing the peace" to the extent that they don't have first amendment protections?
    I never said that.
    I already cited the very famous jurist (Warren?) who wrote a majority opinion for the US Supremem Court saying we do not have the free speech to shout "fire" in a crowded theater, thereby establishing the right of goverment to places limits on noise, etc. You have the right to speak, not yell!

    Most cities require demonstration and parade permits, so they have been found to be constitutional, period.

  14. #14
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    Can you not see that yelling "fire" and handing out hanbills are very different activities?

    I'm not trying to argue that you can never ever restrict any speech on account of the first amendment (that is clearly wrong), I'm saying that this "demonstration" is very probably protected by the first amendment. You keep drawing parallels between this activity and other activities that have nothing to do with it.
    Reality does not conform to your ideology.
    http://neighborhoods.chicago.il.us Photographs of Life in the Neighborhoods of Chicago
    http://hafd.org/~jordanb/ Pretentious Weblog.

  15. #15
    Cyburbian Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    I'd like to see PETA try that down here. They guy would have baked like a burger in that stupid getup. Sounds more like a comedy act than anything else.

    I would only be worried about nuts on street corners if they seemed threatening/dangerous. Or if I was wearing a fur coat...

  16. #16
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    I'd have way too much fun if that happened to me...

    "Wow! How much per pound? She looks tasty!"

    "Hmmm... I'll buy it, but you can't charge any extra for the brain."

    "All I want is the liver. I already have the fava beans and chianti."
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  17. #17
    Cyburbian Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Mastiff
    I'd have way too much fun if that happened to me...

    "Wow! How much per pound? She looks tasty!"

    "Hmmm... I'll buy it, but you can't charge any extra for the brain."

    "All I want is the liver. I already have the fava beans and chianti."
    Too funny. It's like what my mom used to tell me if some perve flashed me, just laugh and point.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    A friend of mine is a judge. He has had cases such as this one invovling abortion clinics. The man was allowed to protest for years, one day he decided to bring a boom box with a barney cd. Someone called the cops on disturbing the peace.

    The man coutersued the city based upon his freedom of speech. So it goes to court. The judge makes the man turn on the boom box to the level of loudness to what he and the police agreed to it was set when he was arrested. The judge then allows the man to plead his case. He and his lawyer talk for a while and ask the judge to turn off the boom box because it was a nusiance and interferred with the court proceedings.

    The man lost his case based on that request.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  19. #19
    Cyburbian sisterceleste's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zoning Goddess
    Too funny. It's like what my mom used to tell me if some perve flashed me, just laugh and point.
    don't forget to yell...I didn't know they came that small!!!!!!!!!
    You darn tootin', I like fig newtons!

  20. #20
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CosmicMojo
    People have a right to free speech, but not to the degree that it disturbs other people.
    Yes, they do. Free speech wouldn't be very useful if it could be co-opted by random yokels who find everything un-white and un-Christian disturbing.

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