I'm not suggesting a wall will solve the problem. But along with controls it would stop a good portion of the illegal immigration. It is not realistic to send people around on manhunts rounding up illegals. But what is realistic for the appropriate authorities to enforce the law and when found send them back. I don't think this is a Bush administration thing, its been going on much longer. Neither party really wants to solve the problem, IMO...
Day laborers are not a recent nor an immigrant issue. On the way to school in the '50s I saw a few dozen men, mostly African-American, standing in front of the state employment office. I asked my mom what was going on. She said it was harvest time and the men were looking for day work; farmers would come by with a truck and pick up the number of workers needed for that day.
In the past few years, or perhaps in different locations, the day labor supply is more Latino.
Is the federal government going to reimburst the local authorities for the time there office is going to spend housing these illegals? Most city police deptartments are strained. The city I work in has only one holding cell. They have to pull an office off the street to have any "perp" driven to the county jail 20 mintes away.Originally posted by Vlaude
There is a seperation of what laws the local authorites enforce and what the federal government enforces and immigration is a federal responsibility. So to do this you have two choices, make locals more responsible for immigration or increase the federal law enforcement cadre. W can push for another unfunded mandate to have the locals do it. To increase the federal to do this, it would require a very large force that would be very expensive. To pay for this big government program we can cut taxs on the rich and increase the debt. It can be another one of Bushes Borrow and Spend policies.
I think both parties want to solve the problem but this problem requires compromise which the gerrymandering that has occured in the past 20 years makes almost impossible.
"If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less" General Eric Shinseki
Oh goodie. A vast new federal police force roaming around every city and town. With a $719 billion budget deficit in real terms, how are we going to fund THAT? Especially during Year 8 of the "Liberation of the Middle East" War?
Interestingly enough, though, there were really no federal immigration laws until the 20th century. Individual states did pass legislation, but you were pretty much checked for disease and "processed" with a new name.
I love this. "YES YES YES We'll take all your crap no questions asked!! LIBERATE THE MARKETS!" but then when people try to come in, it's all guns and razor wire. Why not keep the jobs here AND let them in? Maybe spanish will become the second language of the USA but at least my neighbor will be making my toothbrush once again.
Reality does not conform to your ideology.
http://neighborhoods.chicago.il.us Photographs of Life in the Neighborhoods of Chicago
http://hafd.org/~jordanb/ Pretentious Weblog.
OMG. My darn sister is quoting Pat Buchanan at me.
We already have a border patrol and too many local cops with nothing to do but drive around all day and bust kids for smoking pot. I don't agree that enforcing tougher immigation laws would be that problematic. The real problem is that all the bantering about by the anti-immigration lobby on fox news doesn't matter because the GOP doesn't listen to anybody except for corporate executives and christian fundamentalists. It's like they've purged the party of all the traditional conservatives that believed in things like smaller government, border security, and civil liberties. So there really is no political will to enforce tougher immigration laws despite all of the recent rhetoric. Maybe Pat Buchannon should run for the nomination in 2008
I'll forward your comments to our local police departments. I'm sure they would love a whole new task of enforcing federal immigration policy.We already have a border patrol and too many local cops with nothing to do but drive around all day and bust kids for smoking pot. I don't agree that enforcing tougher immigation laws would be that problematic. The real problem is that all the bantering about by the anti-immigration lobby on fox news doesn't matter because the GOP doesn't listen to anybody except for corporate executives and christian fundamentalists. It's like they've purged the party of all the traditional conservatives that believed in things like smaller government, border security, and civil liberties. So there really is no political will to enforce tougher immigration laws despite all of the recent rhetoric. Maybe Pat Buchannon should run for the nomination in 2008
Who on earth is giving advice to the pro-illegal immigration groups? Marching through the streets with the flags of other countries was not a good way to get the public on their side. Chanting in a language other than the defacto national language didn't help either. Now there is going to be a Spanish version of the national anthem released (http://www.accessatlanta.com/enterta...l_Anthem.html). Remember how well the public took Rosanne Barr's rendition of the Star Spangled Banner? I can't imagine this is going to go over very well with the public. This is a country that places a huge value on symbols. I swear, I think someone from the Minutemen have infiltrated the planning sessions of these groups because at almost every turn they keep finding ways to shoot themselves in the foot.
They're taking a debate on illegal immigration and infusing into it all of the cultural fears that were tangental. While the general public may have been persuaded that the illegal immigrants are harmless and just looking to create a better life through hard work, they now are being confronted with what appears to be demands that Hispanic culture be given a special place in the US. People like other cultures, as ong as they're not expected to change to become part of it. The public loves Cinco de Mayo and Saint Patrick's Day, but force them to learn Spanish or prohibit the use of the arms during dancing and they become mad and lash out.
Whoever it is that is coming up with the strategy for the pro-illegal lobby needs to be fired because they're doing more to ensure that anti-illegal immigration legislation gets passed than any one else. They seem to be catering more to the illegals and their social networks (which have many legal citizens amongst them) than the general public. Perhaps this is so they can "rally the troops" but they're also awakening the sleeping giant of the general public.
As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - H.L. Mencken
I think you've touched on a point that conveys a great deal of the sentiment against illegal immigration and immigrants in general. It comes down to how immigrants have assimilated since the beginning of this country's origins and how ultimately acceptance only comes when those groups are willing codify their behavior, language, customs with the accepted norms which are not about preserving your heritage or setting yourself apart. Am I wrong?
While the entire illegal immigration population includes vast numbers of people who are not Mexican or of latino descent (Irish, Korean, Arabic, etc.) I think it is centered around Mexicans because of the day laborer dilemma and also because the Mexican/latino culture is creating inroads in the national culture and that makes people uncomfortable. Mexicans have been in this country legally for generations and have assimilated, but have not rejected their culture (language, customs, etc.). While some might want to compromise with which parts they find acceptable, everybody seems to love Mexican food.
I don't really see a problem beyond the fact that many are driving without licenses in states where they can't get them.
How would local police enforce immigration laws? Does everyone here carry proof of citizenship with them at ALL times?
I think the better question is should local police be enforcing immigration laws? Its costly to the local municipality and the federal government has been less than willing to help offset the costs that local police bear.
If locval police are going to enforce the immigration laws then the feds should pay for the extra cost.
"If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less" General Eric Shinseki
Nah. We will just be required to be "chipped" at birth, just like dogs and cats. Our ownership society's actual owners need to keep track of their property.
Don't you feel safer, already, knowing the Bush Security State would be able to identify us all electronically?.
Look for the Mandatory Citizens Electronic Surveillance System (M-CESS) to be in place by, say early June 2006 (6/6/6 to be exact.)
Maybe the chip can have the RDIF tags like many credit cards have so they can purchase goods and services with a swipe of their forearm. The government could sell it as a convience factor.Nah. We will just be required to be "chipped" at birth, just like dogs and cats. Our ownership society's actual owners need to keep track of their property.
"If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less" General Eric Shinseki
The answer is simple, and yes local police must enforce the law. They are sworn to do so. When an illegal immigrant is found they should be put into jail and thrown onto a chain gang and made to work for their ticket back! Are you suggesting some laws should not be enforced? I can't believe I am hearing this from a planner? Sometimes we should plat new developments, other times planners should not enforce it. Not anything on a personal level, but I think that is absurd. Illegals are breaking the law and draining the economy, forget the talk on Iraq draining the economy for a second look at this problem! They both are having a bad effect on the economy! Just curious what do you think Mexico would do if Americans were there illegally and doing the same? Mexico's govt. is laughing to the bank.
And like I said neither party is serious about solving the problem. It is not an enforcement issue it is a corporate/business issue from their viewpoint. Big money supports both Demo. & Rep. candidates so whoever wins they have some strings attached. They are in favor of cheap labor, regardless who subsidizes it. The average citizen is in favor of illegal immigration enforcement. I think these protesters forget about the difference between legal and illegal, and like others have said they have shot off one foot and are aiming at the other...
First off I am not a planner I am an economic developer so I see grey where planners see black and white. I participate because I am find planning and topics like this interesting and worthy of debate. Laws are grey. Should a police officer pull you over if you go 1 mile over the speed limit? You broke the law?
I am suggesting that if in the course of rountine police work the law enforcement agent learns the person in there custody is an illegal immigrant then they should turn them over to the federal government and the feds should ensure they remove the preson promptly from the custody of the local officals? Local police should not be investigating an looking for illegals unless the local PD makes that choice.
Should local law enforcement spend its time looking for wife beaters and other criminals ( robbers, rapist, killers etc) or should they spend their finite resources or tracking down white collar criminals? The federal government are the ones that investigated and charged the Enron not the Houston Police Department. Why? Allocation of resources.
In AZ many local police departments spend a large part of their budget dealing with illegal immigrants with little help from the feds. In doing this they ignore other problems in the community. That is why there is a department in Homeland Security that deals with illegal immigration.
I lived in an area where INS would conduct stings
Illegal immigrants do contribute to the economy. Some estimate that illegals are 5% of the workforce...and with an unemployment rate of 4.7% we could experience so severe labor shortages.
I disagree with you Vlaude, both parties want to solve the problem but neither side knows how. Often times the wrong solution is worse than no solution. This is a complicated problem that cannot be solved with more immigration officials or a fence. When neither party wants to solve the issue the party leaders don't make floor speeches. They pass a simple bill saying they care and more on. Lobby reform is a good example of this. The passed a meaningless law that does little to stop the influence peddling with a cosmetic law.
So in your opinion should I ( as a citizen) be looking and trying to ferret out and turn in illegal immigrants?
"If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less" General Eric Shinseki
I see the law as the law, and yes the policeman should enforce it if you are breaking it. Certain laws do allow for flexibility, and some laws do need to be reformed IMO, but that is kind of outside the point that the police are sworn to uphold them regardless of what we think.
I agree 100% with you in thats the wrong bill is not a solution ("the wrong solution") and could make it worse. But what both parties could be doing is encouraging the enforcement of the current laws. Neither are doing that with a party-wide basis that I have seen. The work shortage is complete BOGUS! It is all inflated and subsidized, so there really is no shortage in that sense.
As an economic development person I'm sure you will agree subsidizing these workers and sending money (investments) outside of your town/region is bad practice. That is what is happening here!
I will say it again:
How would local police enforce immigration laws? Does everyone here carry proof of citizenship with them at ALL times?
Jmello, I hope it doesn't come to that, I'm not sure I'd support a required I.D. card to be carried with me 24/7. LOL, might as well get an implant. It should be enforced like any other law, when they are caught they are taken in - ie. using healthcare system, driving illegal, working illegally, etc... I'm not suggesting the local PD's should set up road blocks and check ID's. If there is a severe penalty - working on a chain gang to pay your way back, or whatever the case might be, then these illegals would consider immigrating the correct way. A plus would be unsubsidized cheap labor, assuming they pay their incarceration time too. I'm not saying that's the answer, but I think it would change some things pretty quick!
You are clearly not getting my point. There is NO way to immediately prove that someone at a hospital, driving a car, or working is an illegal immigrant without one of the following:
1. Definitive proof that they illegally crossed an international border (i.e. video, etc.)
2. An extensive background investigation and search for citizenship/visa documents while the person is in custody ($$$)
There is NO central database of citizens and visa/greencard holders with photos that can be quickly checked on the fly by local officers. And, American citizens are not required to carry proof of citizenship when they are out in public.
This entire immigration reform reminds me so much of Pete Wilson's initiative here in California back in 1994. Does anybody remember Prop 187 and how badly that ended. I hate to seem cynical, but these sentiments are cyclical and IMO there are more important issues that should have this country incensed.
But I am curious about the enforcement efforts that are being debated in this thread, so I'd like to know if enforcement would only take place on our borders. i.e. anybody seen crossing illegally would be stopped and detained or as in the case of Pete Wilson's civil liberties nightmare, presumably anyone that looks 'illegal' could be stopped at random. And what do they look like?
God. This is horrible. Chain gangs. Local police dragooned into enforcing federal codes. Ugh.
I think we should just import CIA-sponsored killing squads and hunt them down. That's the ticket.
As soon as I hear the anti-immigrant ranters start complaining about the 40,000 illegal Irish folks in New York, or the 600,000 EU people without proper visas, I'll take it seriously.
Having come from "the heartland" of Middle American culture, and living in a heavily Latin state, I'm not convinced at all that the latinization of Ameircan culture is a negative thing, overall. I woudl rather spend scarce resources on encouraging the emergence of the hybrid culture that is emerging anyway, not setting up another darn police state.
Local officers pull over a van for a traffic violation. Discover several undocumented persons, and send a call to INS. INS tells the locals to "let them go, we don't have the manpower nor facilities to handle them". How many times does that have to happen before the locals give up?
Yeap chain gangs... Nothing unusual or cruel about it. They get food and a place to stay. A lot betther conditions than a lot of people in the world live in. The only reason it is a hispanic dominated issue is because a majority of illegals are hispanic, but any law enforced can not be and should not be enforced solely on illegal hispanics. As if you haven't noticed I do not have a lot of remorse for people who enter the country illegally. Don't get me wrong either I'm not anti-hispanic or anti-immigration. There is just a proper way of doing things.
Jmello it is usually a pretty good sign when you enter the hospital to give birth, for an injury, etc. and 1. You do not speak english. 2. You have no inurance. 3. You have no legal state driver's license 4. You have no Social Security Card. 5. You have no visa. 5. the list goes on... Ask the hospitals, they know fairly soon whether they are probably illegals or not and whether they'll have to right it off as a loss...
So....now the hospitals are going to be dragooned into the eternal war against the invading brown hordes. Of course, it will be a FELONY not to call in the troops when that construction laborer with his hand gashed at the building site lacks....papers.
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