What is the solution to day labor problems?

[Michele Zone]

Kinda OT :

Jmello it is usually a pretty good sign when you enter the hospital to give birth, for an injury, etc. and 1. You do not speak english. 2. You have no inurance. 3. You have no legal state driver's license 4. You have no Social Security Card. 5. You have no visa. 5. the list goes on... Ask the hospitals, they know fairly soon whether they are probably illegals or not and whether they'll have to right it off as a loss...

If the woman is there to give birth, she may be illegal but the child born here is American and that makes the child legally entitled to certain things, including emergency medical care. This is a complex issue and attempts to "fix it" using simple solutions tends to cause more problems than it solves. For example, attempts to crack down on illegals getting free obstetric care by playing the system have increased premature births and other problems in that population -- and those problem babies are, again, American citizens because they were born on American soil. So trying to deny the illegal mom access to our money costs us more in the long run and just causes the baby to bear the brunt of our ire against her -- and the baby is a fully legal American citizen.

[BKM]

Kinda OT :
If the woman is there to give birth, she may be illegal but the child born here is American and that makes the child legally entitled to certain things, including emergency medical care. This is a complex issue and attempts to "fix it" using simple solutions tends to cause more problems than it solves. For example, attempts to crack down on illegals getting free obstetric care by playing the system have increased premature births and other problems in that population -- and those problem babies are, again, American citizens because they were born on American soil. So trying to deny the illegal mom access to our money costs us more in the long run and just causes the baby to bear the brunt of our ire against her -- and the baby is a fully legal American citizen.

Do9n't worry, Michelle. This "flaw" in our law is being fixed, soon. Why should the children of criminals be "given" citizenship?

[AubieTurtle]

The fourteenth amendment pretty much guarantees anyone born here is a citizen so unless Congress and the states are planning on jumping through all the hoops for a constitutional amendment, taking away citizenship of those born to illegals is not part of the debate. It also guarantees equal protection to everyone, regardless of legal status. Whether or not the courts decide that "equal protection" also means the right to equal services, is still to be determined. I do believe this is how many segregation laws were struck down. Since it applies to everyone, not just citizens, it might be the loophole that causes laws prohibiting providing social services to illegals to be struck down.

No matter how you look at it, it is a huge mess. I stick by predictions of a fracture in the United State (but no second civil war) in the next fifty years... mostly because I think the government is going to be broke and have a heck of a lot less power in the coming decades so power will go back to the states.

[jordanb]

I love it how conservatives have taken to calling them "illegals" now. Let's dehumanize them as much as possible.

So the (conservative) argument is that they cost the government money. That's really bullshit. They sure as hell don't file for unemployment (because they can't). They don't eventually collect social security (can't do that either). They may not pay income tax on their meagre earnings (although sometimes they do) but they do pay sales and property taxes (should they be so lucky as to have any property).

Yes, they make use of the limited, pathetic public health system we provide. You gotta do that when you're making $4.00/hr. They send their kids to public school when they're lucky enough to be able to educate them. But hell, those children are going to grow up to be commited and patriotic citizens and the public investment in their education is just as important for our future as the public investment in the education of any of our nation's children.

See, I have a different perspective on this, because unlike the insulated, xenophobic hillbillies I often see ranting about immigration, I actually live surrounded by Mexican immigrants. Many, no doubt, are here illegally. But they are on the whole, honest, friendly, intelligent, and oh yeah, hard working. Judging from the welfare roles out their in rural America, perhaps the average conservative xenophobic hillbilly could learn a thing or two about hard work from the "illegals."

And by the way, they have a wonderful culture that is a great addition to the American experience.

[jmello]

Local officers pull over a van for a traffic violation. Discover several undocumented persons, and send a call to INS.

How do the officers "discover several undocumented persons?" Are Americans required to carry "documentation" when in public?

Jmello it is usually a pretty good sign when you enter the hospital to give birth, for an injury, etc. and 1. You do not speak english. 2. You have no inurance. 3. You have no legal state driver's license 4. You have no Social Security Card. 5. You have no visa. 5. the list goes on...Ask the hospitals, they know fairly soon whether they are probably illegals or not and whether they'll have to right it off as a loss...

There are many legal immigrants and Americans who do not speak English (Puerto Ricans, Aleuts, people in Miami , etc.), many Americans who do not have insurance or driver's licenses (or do not carry it with them), and: who brings a Social Security card to the hospital? Not me, that's for sure. Mine stays locked in my safe until I need to show it for employment.

Short of requiring every person in America to carry citizenship/visa documentation at all times, there is no way for the local police to enforce immigration laws in a non-discriminatory way.

P.S. I would wager a lot of money on the fact that hospitals "write off" many more medical bills for legal Americans than they do for illegal immigrants.

[Vlaude]

Jmello, that is not the point. I don't know the numbers on the right offs of legals vs illegals for hospitals. But I think the way it should be looked at is percentages. Sure there are about 300 million more legals, so you would think that would be the case. And hopefully a decent part of those are working legally and have some tax contribution. Next up for discussion - Healthcare Reform LOL, once we come up with solutions for all of these problems I'll be running for office!

[jmello]

And hopefully a decent part of those are working legally and have some tax contribution.

Many "illegals" also pay income, sales and use taxes. Many use taxpayer ID numbers or someone else's Social Security number. Either way, they are seeing deductions and likely not filing for refunds. They pay sales taxes just like any other American consumer and they indirectly pay property taxes through rent payments.

LOL, once we come up with solutions for all of these problems I'll be running for office!

God, I hope not. I will be moving to Brazil.

[BKM]

God, I hope not. I will be moving to Brazil.

And miss the business opportunities presented by his new system of "Chain Gangs"? Maybe this is what conservatives mean by "Ownership Society"?

[jordanb]

And miss the business opportunities presented by his new system of "Chain Gangs"? Maybe this is what conservatives mean by "Ownership Society"?

Heh. Anne Coulter's recent article on the subject is titled Brown is the New Black. (I'm dead serious ) Now I think I understand the real meaning of that title.

[Vlaude]

Jmello, come on you are saying most illegals pay income tax!?!?!?!?

Yeap BKM, maybe you could have a sign up sheet for "RENT A CHAIN GANG" at the local jail. That would solve the day labor problem and pay for their return!

[jmello]

Jmello, come on you are saying most illegals pay income tax!?!?!?!?

News Release
For immediate use Jan. 3, 2006 -- No. 1

North Carolina’s Hispanic immigrants contribute more than $9 billion
to economy, cost state budget net $102 per Hispanic resident, new study shows

CHAPEL HILL – North Carolina’s rapidly growing Hispanic population contributes more than $9 billion to the state’s economy through its purchases, taxes and labor, while costing the state budget a net $102 per Hispanic resident in health care, education and correctional services, according to a new study by researchers at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

If recent migration trends continue, the total economic impact of Hispanic spending in the state could increase to $18 billion by 2009.

These were among the key findings and conclusions of the first major comprehensive study of the state’s Hispanic population and its economic impact conducted by the Frank Hawkins Kenan Institute of Private Enterprise at UNC for the North Carolina Bankers Association (NCBA), in cooperation with the Mexican Consulate of Raleigh. The study assessed the economic impact of the state’s growing Hispanic population and identified potential business opportunities provided by this fast-growing market.

"This study quantifies for the first time the enormous economic contributions made by our state’s Hispanic population, as well as pointing to a wide range of public policy issues and business opportunities to be explored," said NCBA president and chief executive officer Thad Woodard.

"North Carolina policy-makers and business leaders now have a wealth of data and information on which to make decisions about both challenges and opportunities offered by this increasingly significant segment of our state’s population and economy."

Results of the study were released today (Jan. 3) at the 2006 Economic Forecast Forum sponsored by NCBA and North Carolina Citizens for Business and Industry.

"Immigrants from Latin America, authorized and unauthorized, are dramatically changing North Carolina’s demographic and economic landscape," reported study authors Dr. John D. Kasarda, director of the Kenan Institute, and Dr. James H. Johnson Jr., director of the institute’s Urban Investment Strategies Center. Both are professors at UNC’s Kenan-Flagler Business School.

"Hispanics live in every one of the state’s 100 counties and contribute to all sectors of the economy."

Among the study’s findings:

North Carolina’s Hispanic population totaled 600,913, or 7 percent of the state’s total population, in 2004. The average Hispanic household contains 3.7 people (compared to 2.4 people in the average non-Hispanic household) and earns about $32,000 annually (compared to $45,700 for non-Hispanics).

Hispanics accounted for 27.5 percent of the state’s population growth from 1990 to 2004 and 57 percent of the total enrollment growth in North Carolina Public Schools between school years 2000-2001 and 2004-2005.

Hispanics filled one in three new jobs created in North Carolina between 1995 and 2005, with significant concentrations in the construction industry (29 percent of the labor force).

North Carolina Hispanics’ after-tax income totaled an estimated $8.3 billion in 2004. With about 20 percent of that total sent home to Latin America, saved or used for interest payments, the remaining spending had a total economic impact of $9.2 billion on the state. Much of that spending occurs in the major metropolitan areas along the Interstate 40/Interstate 85 corridor, but it also supports businesses in every part of the state.

Hispanics annually contribute about $756 million in taxes (direct and indirect) while costing the state budget about $817 million annually for K-12 education ($467 million), health care ($299 million) and corrections ($51 million) – for a net cost to the state of about $61 million, or $102 per Hispanic resident.

"The net cost to the state budget must be seen in the broader context of the aggregate benefits Hispanics bring to the state’s economy," researchers said. "Above and beyond their direct and indirect impacts on North Carolina business revenues, Hispanic workers contribute immensely to the state’s economic output and cost competitiveness in a number of key industries."

For example, without Hispanic participation in the construction industry, economic output of this important sector would be significantly lower and annual labor costs nearly $1 billion higher.

Looking ahead, researchers concluded, clear opportunities exist to capitalize on the presence of the Hispanic market, including:

Tapping this growing consumer market by increasing the availability of goods and services that local businesses offer Hispanic consumers, particularly in rural areas, where Hispanic purchasing power is only partially tapped due to the lack of products and services they seek.

Supporting the growth of Hispanic-owned businesses, which face many of the same challenges to startup and growth as do native entrepreneurs plus additional barriers of language, lack of credit histories and limited financial backing.
Leveraging the state’s growing Hispanic network to increase export trade to Latin America and attract inward investment by Latin American companies in North Carolina.

The full report may be downloaded online at www.kenaninstitute.unc.edu.

[Michele Zone]

P.S. I would wager a lot of money on the fact that hospitals "write off" many more medical bills for legal Americans than they do for illegal immigrants.

I would imagine so: more than half of all bankruptcies are due to high medical bills following treatment for things like cancer. This stat holds true whether the family had medical insurance or not.

Something definitely smells rotten.

[AubieTurtle]

Jmellow, Vlaude is talking about illegal aliens and you've posted an article about hispanics. I think everyone acknowledges that hispanic citizens and legal aliens pay taxes. His issue was with the amount of taxes illegals pay, which is a huge question mark... though people on both sides of the issue babble on like they know that answer for sure. Your article seems to include all hispanics, whether legal or illegal. The only way it would make sense is if most hispanics are illegals, which I don't believe is the case.

Come back with an article on the amount of taxes illegal alien pay and then you can use it to try to answer Vlaude's question.

[jmello]

Jmellow, Vlaude is talking about illegal aliens and you've posted an article about hispanics. Come back with an article on the amount of taxes illegal alien pay and then you can use it to try to answer Vlaude's question.

The report was done in response to arguments like vlaude's. North Carolina does not have a historic Hispanic presence.

From the report:

• Between 1995 and 2004, 38.2% of North Carolina’s
Hispanic newcomers migrated from abroad, 40.2 percent
migrated from another U.S. jurisdiction, and 21.6 percent
were born in North Carolina.

• Nearly half (45 percent) of North Carolina’s Hispanic
residents in 2004, and over three-quarters (76 percent) of
those migrating to the state from abroad between 1995 and
2004, did not have authorized documentation.

[AubieTurtle]

If you were responding to his statements about hispanics in NC, why did you quote his line about illegals and income tax?

[Vlaude]

Jmello, it is discussing other taxes ad valorem, sales tax, etc... Sure some pay those taxes, but the majority of illegals are not paying income taxes state (if the case) or federal (I do not doubt many pay pennies on the dollar in sales tax, we all do).

The article really is discussing Hispanics legal and illegal, so it is skewed. Why not include some legal white people, maybe a few legal blacks too to bump the numbers up even more? This study is not really relevant to illegal immigration, though it kind of seems they are trying to make that reach. Not to mention it has an odd odor to it - LOL - put together in cooperation with the Mexican Consulate of Raleigh (Remember Mexico is laughing to the bank on this, they refuse to address the issue since they are reaping the rewards in dollars entering the Mexican economy.)

The point is moot though, illegals are a huge drag on the economy and whether we agree on a solution or not there needs to be one. And the solution is not making everyone legal with a magic wand. There are immigration controls for a good reason. LOL, I'm not sure we will agree on this issue. But I do find it interesting to hear peoples ideas on it.

[Michele Zone]

Just an observation:
The title of this thread is "What is the solution to day labor problems?" not "What is the solution to illegal immigration?" Yet it seems to me no one has said anything about day labor in quite a few posts.

[BKM]

The point is moot though, illegals are a huge drag on the economy and whether we agree on a solution or not there needs to be one. And the solution is not making everyone legal with a magic wand. There are immigration controls for a good reason. LOL, I'm not sure we will agree on this issue. But I do find it interesting to hear peoples ideas on it.

I can think of several things that are far more of a drag on the econmy than illegal immigration, like a (real terms, not Enronized accounting) Federal Budget Deficit of $750 million, a War costing trillions of dollars, and economic policies designed to encourage the hollowing out of the American economy. But wait, let's focus on those pesky brown people. They look dirty and scary. THAT'S the big issue.

[Vlaude]

I agree BKM there are 3 big economy related issues, maybe 4 if you include the baby-boomers investments. I really don't think this issue has to do with skin color though...

[high density]

I agree BKM there are 3 big economy related issues, maybe 4 if you include the baby-boomers investments. I really don't think this issue has to do with skin color though...

Nobody can possibly believe that this doesn't have anything to do with race and ethnicity. The theme of this thread is day laborers who happen to be predominantly Mexican and latino; we are not discussing asylum seekers from Africa, Asian families immigrating for the education, and all the Europeans with expired visas. It is interesting that this debate is taking place as the APA is actively discussing diversity in planning. I think we've got a long way to go.

[Vlaude]

HighDensity, please don't play the race card, this is not a race issue. I have no problems with different races/ethnicity. My step-mother is from south of the border and is a good person. I think that is a straw illegals and supporters try to grasp at which urks me. The issue is not race related, though a good majority of illegals are hispanic. The issue is not them being hispanic. Immigration reform did not originate from hispanics entering the country.


As a side note: A shot in the left foot for illegals, in Mexico City a large protest and boycott is being scheduled for all U.S. companies in Mexico. So don't eat at BK, McDeez, don't buy anything from Wally-World. LOL, smart move... Boycott those who are supporting your movement in the U.S. Seems like maybe Conservatives and these protesters are on the same page, so why are they still coming to the U.S. if it is so bad? (Ok sorry just a rant, but I found it a bit humorous.)

[high density]

I introduced the subject of race and ethnicity much earlier in this thread and only used your quote, because it seemed to me that that's exactly what you were talking about in your posts. I'm not trying to play the race card or placate you with some liberal gibberish, but rather trying to introduce another layer into this discussion that is missing. We don't talk about topics like race and ethnicity very easily and as planners we're not experts to begin with, but I believe it is imperative to this dialogue. And if you want to know the context in which I meant my comments about race and ethnicity see that earlier post.

[Vlaude]

High_density, I agree that some people think illegal alien is synonymous with hispanic. And in one hand majority illegals are, but that doesn't really change the real issue. So beyond that it really isn't a race issue. I think some want to make it into a "pick on the hispanics issue" but that's not the case in most situations.

I'm gonna stop this though, we are off topic and I've said enough. I know I'm in the minority when it comes to fellow planners. Interesting topic though.

[jordanb]

You started this thread, and put it in the "Economic and Community Development" forum, by making a wild link between immigration and day labor, and arguing that cities should not fund day labor programs on the grounds that you believe that day laborers are undocumented immigrants ("Illegals," in your words.) To be explicit, you said "realizing that 3/4 of these laborers are illegal immigrants" without providing any justification for that assertion.

You then abandoned the day labor thing entirely when you were called out on your immigration issues and began ranting about chain gangs and mass deportions. When people started challenging your notions about how easy it is to identify an illegal immigrant, you refused to acknowledge that it would be virtually impossible without racial profiling.

It's clear that your positions are racially motivated, although you've gone to great lengths to present them without ever explicitly mentioning race, and then when people call you on it you plead that they're "playing the race card."

But I think the real issue is, what the hell does this have to do day labor? It seems that the connection is tenuous at best (basically your baseless argument that day laborers are illegal immigrants and therefore, day labor programs shouldn't be funded). If there's no substantive connection to day labor then:

1. The title of this thread is a teaser that does not describe its real purpose or content.
2. This thread clearly does not belong in the Economic and Community Development forum.
3. While it's probably not there yet I think this thread is coming to be exposed as a troll that probably doesn't even belong in the FAC.

[Vlaude]

Jordan, sorry I didn't note the sources. PM'd you the info on my sources, if you didn't get it let me know I can email you. I'm not sure if it went through or not.