What is the solution to day labor problems?

[boilerplater]

Maybe a solution to the day labor problem lies in the economic development of Mexico. I've heard (only in casual conversation) that Mexico hasn't developed its natural resources to the extent that many other "developed" countries have. A lot of the coastline is undeveloped, though condos and beach homes are going up fast south of Tijuana. I can't be totally comfortable with the development of pristine beaches, but is it a solution for Mexico's excess labor? More retired Americans living there creates a demand for convenient retail and entertainment opportunities, health care facilities, etc. They all need to be staffed, and I think the folks who retire in Mexico wont care about the color of the people working for them.

[crisp444]

Like BKM has said, I really don't think there is a definite solution for the problems that day labor may present. However, I think LA has taken a positive step in trying to create "zones" for day laborers - it is an organized attempt to consolidate the labor force that is available instead of allowing hundreds or thousands of people to stand around in street corners and shopping centers all day - waiting, littering, and in some cases, blocking pedestrian traffic. As long as 800,000 people enter the US illegally every year, I am fairly certain we will have more and more people without documents that will try to get temporary, day labor jobs. If we know this flow of people is not going to stop, something must be done to address the people who do not have jobs and need to find them in order to feed their families while in this country (either temporarily or permanently).

I understand that day laborers do not necessarily mean illegal immigrants. In the Jim Crow South, many African-Americans (who probably had applied for steady job positions and were rejected by bosses who wanted a "white only" workplace) had to resort to day labor to support their families. In other countries all around the world, some of the native white, black, Asian, and Amerindian populations are unemployed and have no choice but to seek temporary, day labor positions. However, in the context of 2006 United States, an overwhelming share of day laborers are undocumented immigrants.

Because of what I have concluded above, day labor and undocumented/illegal immigration are two important issues that seem to be somewhat interrelated. If we address one, more than often an effect will be had in the other. I really do not want to write 10 pages on how I think we should deal with illegal immigration - perhaps if this discussion evolves to that, then I will summarize what I think should be done (moderate, left leaning but nothing too extreme so don't worry)

In the meantime - please remember that this is not an issue about race. Even if 100% of illegal immigrants in this country were Hispanic (which clearly, they aren't), it still wouldn't be about race. Everyone knows (or should know - most on this forum are educated people) that Hispanic is a macroethnicity and not a race. Hispanic does not equal brown and certainly does not equal illegal. Most Hispanics in the US are legal, law-abiding citizens, and many are black and white, not "brown." In fact, according to the 2000 census, 48% of US Hispanics identified themselves as white. It really offends me that my Hispanic and Latin heritage is constantly degraged as both "Latinos" and other US groups (including right-wing militant groups and liberal grassroots organizations) try to racialize these terms and put them side by side with "illegal," "helpless," and "poor." The only thing I and many other people like me have in common with an undocumented Mexican immigrant of Amerindian descent is the fact that we all speak Spanish. My blood just boils when I encounter people who assume that illegal Mexican immigrants speak for Hispanics as a whole. Yeah... this rant is going to end here.

[BKM]

In the meantime - please remember that this is not an issue about race. Even if 100% of illegal immigrants in this country were Hispanic (which clearly, they aren't), it still wouldn't be about race. Everyone knows (or should know - most on this forum are educated people) that Hispanic is a macroethnicity and not a race. Hispanic does not equal brown and certainly does not equal illegal. Most Hispanics in the US are legal, law-abiding citizens, and many are black and white, not "brown." In fact, according to the 2000 census, 48% of US Hispanics identified themselves as white. It really offends me that my Hispanic and Latin heritage is constantly degraged as both "Latinoshi" and other US groups (including right-wing militant groups and liberal grassroots organizations) try to racialize these terms and put them side by side with "illegal," "helpless," and "poor." The only thing I and many other people like me have in common with an undocumented Mexican immigrant of Amerindian descent is the fact that we all speak Spanish. My blood just boils when I encounter people who assume that illegal Mexican immigrants speak for Hispanics as a whole. Yeah... this rant is going to end here.

Interesting perspective, crispin.

I do honestly think, though, that most people do not have your more personal (and sophisticated) understanding about what Hispanic means, and I think it very much is a matter of "race." Or, if we avoid the "r" word, they are typically darker skinned, non-native people different than the European "normal" population.

Plus, just from personal observation, most Mexicans doing day labor and the lower paid physcially demanding jobs are darker-skinned Mezstizos (spelling?), if not largely or even 100% "Indian" (Native?-I like the Canadian term, actually, "First Peoples" the best ) genetic heritage. In the end, many (not all, mind you) European-Americans are indeed reacting to this racial character. Members of the Mexican elite of European (Spanish) blood would pass without question, of course.


My opinions have actually evolved a little, based on the hrroros I have at the thought of the human impacts of even more draconian enforcement of immigration laws. And, the pious bleatings by tax-cheating, speed-limit-breaking, drunk driving drug using, American patriots is funny (Note. I am not saying that all opponents to immigration are lawbreakers. Just that our pious protestations about "the law" are ignored by many Americans routinely).

[crisp444]

You're right, BKM. Every single person waiting for day labor that I've ever seen is either Amerindian or dark-skinned mestizo (and this was observed in overwhelmingly white-Hispanic South Florida). I would guess that a huge percentage (virtually all) of undocumented Mexican immigrants are of the same heritage. I guess this is why it is so easy for people to see illegal immigration as a "racial" issue. Most of the white or light-skinned mestizo Mexicans I know came to the United States legally to pursue higher education, and none of their families crossed the desert and the Rio Grande at night. Frankly, I see it as more of a class issue than a race issue - nearly all undocumented Mexican immigrants are poor. Part of the reason we see such a homogenous group of Mexicans (dark-skinned, largely unskilled, and poor) entering this country each year is due to the fact that there is a large (HUGE) disparity in Mexico between whites (and to an extent, light-skinned mestizos) and their darker-skinned and indigenous compatriots. Although the population is only 9% white, these people have control of business, government, and higher education. Like the United States, there has always been a tradition of racial discrimination in Mexico, and there, discrimination due to race still happens today. Many Mexicans in power (including president Vicente Fox) do not care that dark-skinned, poor, unskilled Mexicans are leaving the country for the US - poverty is exported and another country has to deal with it instead of his Mexican government. One of the best solutions to "deal" with illegal immigration to the US would be to "fix" the downfalls and harsh disparities in Mexico that are causing Mexicans to come to the US in the first place - however, this is much, much easier said than done, and I cannot see it happening anytime in the near future.

[jmello]

...I guess this is why it is so easy for people to see illegal immigration as a "racial" issue...Part of the reason we see such a homogenous group of Mexicans (dark-skinned, largely unskilled, and poor) entering this country each year is due to the fact that there is a large (HUGE) disparity in Mexico between whites (and to an extent, light-skinned mestizos) and their darker-skinned and indigenous compatriots.

Which makes it a "racial issue." Anyone who thinks the backlash against "illegal immigrants" is not related to race, ethnicity and language has a bag over their head.

[crisp444]

Which makes it a "racial issue." Anyone who thinks the backlash against "illegal immigrants" is not related to race, ethnicity and language has a bag over their head.

It appears to be a racial issue to a lot of people, and I dare to say that to some people, it may be. However, do you really think that the average American citizen is pefectly okay with Eastern European, Asian, and African immigrants who are not of legal status? I doubt it, because it seems to me that most Americans seem to stand by the idea that their grandparents and great-grandparents came to the US legally and if their descendants came legally, than it should be that way for everyone else. In fact, I have white, mestizo, mulatto, and black Hispanic friends (who are legal Americans, mind you) who are opposed to illegal immigration, regardless of the group in question. It is much too simple to lable this a conflict between native white Americans and non-native, non-white immigrants as the media and mainstream thought seem to be doing.

Ethnicity and language are separate issues from race. BKM mentioned that he has yet to see people complain about illegal Irish immigrants or EU citizens in the US whose visas have expired. At first look, it is easy to conclude that this is because these immigrants are white and most Hispanic immigrants are not. However, white immigrants to the US (primarily from Europe, Australia, and the Middle East) come from a plethora of countries with distinct ethnicities and languages. When they settle in the US, they seem to assimilate very quickly (this is theory and I have no evidence to support this, so excuse me if you disagree) because it is nearly impossible to settle in an area where you can speak Polish, Turkish, or Albanian without having to learn English. This theory can be extended for African immigrants and Asian immigrants - there are very few places where these immigrants can settle without having to learn English and assimilate fully or partially to life in the United States. Being surrounded by people from different languages and backgrounds, it is essential that new immigrants learn English and assimilate to American culture so that they can communicate and interact both with different immigrant groups and with people native to the United States.

Undocumented Hispanic immigrants are a very homogenous group and speak the same language - Spanish. There are multiple areas and neighborhoods in the United States where English is not needed to shop at the supermarket, have your car fixed, withdraw money from the bank, or even get a lower level job. In many places in the US, learning English and assimilating to American culture is just not necessary for a decent quality of life. Given that there are thousands of people who are culturally, racially, and linguistically similar, many Hispanic immigrants in areas that are almost homogenously mmmigrant Hispanic really don't see learning English as a necessity. Although this is just my personal observation, many Mexican and Central American immigrants with whom I have spoken in the US have TOLD ME THIS!! Massive immigration of a homogenous group of people is bound to lead to areas where the traditional assimilation model is defied - and this is what upsets many Americans.

Although I have no doubt that most Hispanic immigrants do learn English and will eventually assimilate to American culture, it is undeniable that there are neighborhoods and areas of the US where this is just not evident. Although most Americans are not in agreement with many immigrants being here illegally regardless of their race, it is no surprise to me that there is not a lot of uproar about all the undocumented European, Asian, and African immigrants. These three groups seem to comply with the assimilation model MORE than recent, undocumented Hispanic immigrants, and for this proposed reason, Americans seem to be in an uproar about illegal immigration from Mexico and Central America.

In conclusion, I must say the Jmello is right about this having to do with ethnicity and language. When the American society is receiving such a strong and rapid infusion of the culture, traditions, and language of immigrants from south of the border, it is no wonder that some Americans will feel that mainstream American culture and the English language may be "threatened." This fear just doesn't seem to exist in regards to other immigrants because their cultural infusions are much less intense and likely to blend into the American melting pot without much fuss.

[crisp444]

I forgot to mention one more point that illustrates why this issue has to do with ethnicity and language as opposed to race. When educated, white Cubans fled Fidel Castro's communist Cuba starting in 1959, their immigration in large neighbors was met with some disapproval in Miami-Dade county, Florida. Local residents, both white and black, complained about the increasing use of Spanish, especially in new businesses opened by Cuban exiles. At one point, so much tension existed that English only laws were created (but were soon taken away). Although Cuban immigrants were in a way welcomed with open arms for being white, educated refugees of communism, the fact that they spoke Spanish created a divide between them and the native white and black populations. Thankfully, such a divide no longer exists between "native" whites (unfortunately, I cannot say the same about native blacks) and Cubans because Cubans have so successfully assimilated into government, business, and education in South Florida. Hopefully as Mexican immigrants assimilate, any divides between them and the rest of the US population will ease and perhaps disappear.

[Vlaude]

Crisp444, I stepped out of the discussion but am stepping back in just to say I agree 100% To most it is not a racial issue. I'm sure there are some who take issue with race, but the heart of the matter and to most Americans race is not the issue. Well put...

[BKM]

Interesting points, all, crispin. I would venture, however, that most Euro-Americans would indeed be "bothered" if there were large numbers of Africans entering the country illegally. And, there are frequently complaints about "all the signs being in Asian gobblygook characters" in many California newspapers.

Out here in California, interestingly enough, there are indeed many communities, including entire Los Angeles suburban cities of 100,000 people where the use of English by Chinese and other Asians is not "necessary" Chinatown may be pcturesque and have English speaking residents for communicating with the tourists, but you go back in the alleys off Grant Street proper, and it's a different world.

I would point out, however, that Immigration laws during the 19th century were quite rudimentary, especially for European immigrants. Except when the country went through one of its perioidic nativist panics. So, pious protests that "my great grandparents immigrated legally" are well and good. I've known too many well-educated, English speaking, and motivated professionals who have found our immigration system a nightmare. So, whenever the law interferes with basic human patterns and needs, lawbreaking is a problem-and the laws are often more harmful than the lawvbreaking. That's why I favor greatly reduced drug laws, by the way. People have always wanted to self-medicate.

[crisp444]

BKM, I am curious to know which communities outside of LA are so heavily Asian that English is not needed. What I mean to say is: I already am aware that there are millions of Asians in California, but are there really communities that have ethnic concentrations of Japanese, Korean, Chinese, etc that are big enough to sustain a community where English practically is not needed? I believe you, but I have never personally seen an example: most heavily Asian (including Asian Indian) communities in the US seem to have a mix of nationalities and languages represented so that communication is possible only through English.

And yes, I'm sure that if African immigrants started arriving in mass and settling together in large concentrations, many Americans would react in the same way that they react to mass immigration of Mexicans and Central Americans. However, unless they were all from Francophone countries, they would be forced to learn English in order to communicate with each other and the surrounding community. This is where concentrations of immigrants in general and concentrations of Hispanic immigrants differ - "Hispanic neighborhoods" are distinct in that they are almost always dominated by the Spanish language, which is exclusionary to about 90% of the US population, even non-Spanish speaking Hispanics. In my opinion, the language issue is huge, and is the reason why many Americans (of all races) feel so uncomfortable when they see a "Hispanic neighborhood" forming near them. For this reason, it seems too simply minded to me to scream racism if someone expresses disapproval of Hispanic immigrants moving en-masse to their neighborhood or area. I'm sure the same disapproval would be shown if entire neighborhoods and areas of Mandarin/Cantonese Chinese, Polish, Arabic, and Swahili speaking people were to form rapidly as well. The reason no one complains (save BKM's example) about these groups is that they are either too small, too dispersed, or too fast-assimilating to "threaten" English-speaking America and its mainstream culture.

[BKM]

BKM, I am curious to know which communities outside of LA are so heavily Asian that English is not needed. What I mean to say is: I already am aware that there are millions of Asians in California, but are there really communities that have ethnic concentrations of Japanese, Korean, Chinese, etc that are big enough to sustain a community where English practically is not needed? I believe you, but I have never personally seen an example: most heavily Asian (including Asian Indian) communities in the US seem to have a mix of nationalities and languages represented so that communication is possible only through English.
.

Well, I am talking about some of the East San Gabriel Valley towns like Monterrey Park, of course. But again, there are plenty of non-English speaking residents of San Francisco's Chinatown, a poor immigrant neighborhood. There's partly a class issue, in that other heavily Asian San Francisco neighborhoods, like Inner Richmond, are more intermixed and have more middle class English speaking professionals.

Still, there have always been ethnic neighborhoods where new immigrants don't much "need" to learn English.

[btrage]

.
In conclusion, I must say the Jmello is right about this having to do with ethnicity and language. When the American society is receiving such a strong and rapid infusion of the culture, traditions, and language of immigrants from south of the border, it is no wonder that some Americans will feel that mainstream American culture and the English language may be "threatened." This fear just doesn't seem to exist in regards to other immigrants because their cultural infusions are much less intense and likely to blend into the American melting pot without much fuss.

I believe that most immigration issues have some form of ethnic overtones to them. Even going back to early days when vast numbers of Polish, Irish, Italians, etc. came over from Europe, they all immigrated to their own neighborhoods and there was definitely ethnic strife amongst them. This isn't a question of people picking out one race over the other. It's a question of race in general. I can guarantee that if it was a bunch of Russians immigrating to the States, the good old "red state voters" would be just as pissed off as they are now.

[jmello]

However, do you really think that the average American citizen is pefectly okay with Eastern European,

Yes

Asian,

Maybe

and African immigrants

No

who are not of legal status?

We also need to add class/profession into the equation. The level of acceptance for a day laborer is a lot different than that for a professor or a doctor (legal or illegal). And, it so happens, classes and professions often correspond with place of origin for immigrants to the United States. Also, immigrants in some professions are automatically assumed to be legal, while those in other professions are automatically assumed to be illegal.

...it is nearly impossible to settle in an area where you can speak Polish, Turkish, or Albanian without having to learn English. This theory can be extended for African immigrants and Asian immigrants - there are very few places where these immigrants can settle without having to learn English and assimilate fully or partially to life in the United States.

Have you spent any significant amount of time in the cities of the the Northeast and Midwest? These statements are entirely false. There are neighborhoods within the City of Boston and nearby suburbs where one could live comfortably only speaking Italian, Portuguese, Russian, Hebrew, Cape Verdean creole, Haitian creole, Spanish, Armenian, Vietnamese, or Cambodian.

[crisp444]

[/QUOTE]Have you spent any significant amount of time in the cities of the the Northeast and Midwest? These statements are entirely false. There are neighborhoods within the City of Boston and nearby suburbs where one could live comfortably only speaking Italian, Portuguese, Russian, Hebrew, Cape Verdean creole, Haitian creole, Spanish, Armenian, Vietnamese, or Cambodian.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I have spent time in the Northeast and Midwest US. I attended college at Boston University so I am in fact very familiar with Boston and many of its urban and suburban neighborhoods. However, like I said, there are very few examples in the US where one can get by only speaking a language other than English or Spanish. You're right, you may be able to find tiny neighborhoods and fractions of neighborhoods where one can use those languages - but to function in everyday life, start working, and have a decent quality of life? I doubt it. The groups you have named are so small (comparatively) that it would be NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE to move to Boston and not learn English. I volunteered to teach English in Chelsea and East Boston and even those Spanish speaking, Mexican and Central American immigrants told me of how hard it was to get around Boston with their limited or nonexistant English skills. Even THEY felt alienated and disenfranchised, unlike their friends/relatives who had moved to LA and Miami and are getting by just fine with minimal English skills.

As for these groups - Italian? Not in the year 2006 in Boston. The Italian (not including Italian Americans) community in Boston is tiny.
Portuguese? Maybe in certain neighborhoods, and maybe in New Bedford and Fall River. Still, it would be hard to get around only speaking Portuguese.
Russian and Hebrew? Definitely not. The communities are just too small and spread out.
Cape Verdean Creole? Although this is a large community, it would be nearly impossible to be a functioning individual with a decent standard of living and just speak this dialect.
Haitian Creole? Definitely not. Most Haitians live in black (mostly African American, some Cape Verdean) neighborhoods and just have to learn English, and fast.
Spanish? This one works the best, but as a Spanish speaker myself, I would be terrified to live in Boston without speaking English. Like I've said above, the Spanish speakers (Chelsea, East Boston, and Boston) with whom I've spoken have told me that it is very alienating to get by with Spanish, even in their "Hispanic" neighborhoods.
Armenian? No way, not even close.
Vietnamese, Cambodian? Communities are just too small to get by with these languages.

I'm not trying to be rude, and I can tell you have knowledge of Boston and its neighborhoods. However, I stand by my point that it is nearly impossible to find self-sustaining non-Spanish speaking communities in the United States where one can function in daily life, get a job, and maintain a decent standard of living without speaking English. Boston has many ethnic groups and immigrant concentrations, but they are just too small and too non-influential to make it possible to live comfortably in Boston without assimilating to American culture and speaking English. It is barely even feasible to get by with Spanish in certain areas of Boston, although this is becoming increasingly easy. Compared with Miami, Los Angeles, and South Texas, Boston is extremely American and a person who is of working age really cannot expect to maintain a halfway decent life without being fluent in English.

[crisp444]

We also need to add class/profession into the equation. The level of acceptance for a day laborer is a lot different than that for a professor or a doctor (legal or illegal). And, it so happens, classes and professions often correspond with place of origin for immigrants to the United States. Also, immigrants in some professions are automatically assumed to be legal, while those in other professions are automatically assumed to be illegal.

Absolutely. The same thing happens here in Spain. When my Argentinean family came here with their diplomas, money, and white skin, people INSISTED even in their first few months here that they were NOT immigrants! Compare that to the dark-skinned, waiters and nannies from Ecuador and Peru who have been here for 10 years and still are called "immigrants" and "foreigners" on a daily basis. Unfortunately, you are right in that people with unskilled professions are often assumed to be in their new country illegally.

[jmello]

Yes, I have spent time in the Northeast and Midwest US. I attended college at Boston University so I am in fact very familiar with Boston and many of its urban and suburban neighborhoods.

I am not going to get into a pissing match with you. Anyone who is familiar with ethnic areas in the Northeast would agree with my characterization.

Anyway, this thread has gone way off topic. I reaffirm my argument that the increased concern and media hype over illegal immigration has more to do with ethnicity and language than true economic concern. Residents of the "Heartland" who are now finally getting a taste of ethnic and cultural diversity really don't like it and they are letting their politicians know about it. A Chinese family running a local restaurant or an Indian family owning the town motel is one thing. Hundreds or thousands of Mexicans with their own stores and services (with signs in Spanish) is a whole 'nother can of worms.

[crisp444]

Jmello, I will not argue with you but I am curious as to where there are some of these communities (because I have not really noticed large ones, and maybe you have). This isn't meant to continue this argument, it is just so I know to which neighborhoods and towns you refer.

-Portuguese (white, European Portuguese immigrants and their direct descendants, not Cape Verdeans). I really haven't seen a lot of them, but I have seen some Brazilians (of Portuguese descent).
-Russian/Israeli/Hebrew-speaking: I will have to guess that you mean Brookline (I used to live in Coolidge Corner neighborhood) or parts of Brighton, but are there others?
-Armenian: I have never seen an Armenian "community," but I have heard there are Armenians in Belmont and Watertown. Anywhere else?

Thanks in advance.

[mike gurnee]

When pre Watergate Richard Nixon was in trouble, with opinion polls dropping, concern for the environment became a hot topic issue. Many conspiracy-minded people thought that environmental issues were “discovered” to take the public mind off of other issues.

Immigration issues have been around for decades; day labor issues have been around for decades. The issues have recently escalated as “those people” started moving into traditionally “Stepford Wives” communities. But is the recent rise in immigration activity enough to account for the media and bloggers hyper interest in the subject? Or is there perhaps a parallel to Nixon’s interest in the environment?

[BKM]

When pre Watergate Richard Nixon was in trouble, with opinion polls dropping, concern for the environment became a hot topic issue. Many conspiracy-minded people thought that environmental issues were “discovered” to take the public mind off of other issues.

Immigration issues have been around for decades; day labor issues have been around for decades. The issues have recently escalated as “those people” started moving into traditionally “Stepford Wives” communities. But is the recent rise in immigration activity enough to account for the media and bloggers hyper interest in the subject? Or is there perhaps a parallel to Nixon’s interest in the environment?

But why would the oh-so-liberal, left-wing media cooperate in this framing of issues?

[Vlaude]

You might be right Mike, I don't know. However, it has been a big problem for a few years, I'm just glad to see it being addressed regardless of whether it is to divert some of the attention off other areas. This is a huge issue, IMO. I'm not sure I agree with you though about it being the issue of the “Stepford Wives” arguement. I think those who are of the socio-economic class as Crisp mentioned usually aren't frowned upon as much and in same ways. Though typically those families typically come through legal means. And I don't have a problem with that. My step-mother fits that mold (not the Stepford Wife model though)... She is from S. America and legally immigrated to the U.S.