What is the solution to day labor problems?

[Vlaude]

I'm reading the APA article on Day Labor and it seems to suggest LA is the model to aspire to for day labor programs. WHAT!?!?! The City is spending $1.7 million a year in Federal Funds (another reason to further cut CDBG in my book) with some general fund money as well. Part of these funds are used for training as well. Realizing that 3/4 of these laborers are illegal immigrants, and pulling money from the economy at a rate that surpasses a number of states annual GDP. It appears as though LA is only promoting this and further exacerbating the problem. Shouldn't these places ensure the laborers are legal to work? Now LA is looking at requiring home improvement stores to fund these locations. I see this issue as two prong, one being the illegal workers and two being those that encourage and hire illegals. If cities would take this stand on the issues, wouldn’t this discourage the majority of these people hanging out on the corners waiting for jobs? And then promote the legal aspects of immigration and paying into the federal tax system. These people using day laborers illegally are subsidized by you and me!

Does anyone else feel this way?

[iamme]

It seems like your topic is a bit broad. You seem to be combining issues of immigration/migration, CDBG funding, and the responsibilities of planning to day laborers and other marginal workers. Yes, these issues are related but if you don't seperate them this thread will not get a meaningful response or will devolve into a political argument.

[Vlaude]

Yes it is a bit broad... I'm just curious if I am in the minority of planners when it comes to these day labor locations. I think there are problems with promoting such locations and at the taxpayers expense. My comments are in regards to the article in PLANNING this month. The article seems to promote what LA has done and does not give the cons to promoting such locations. Just thought its seemed a bit lop sided and wonder what other planners who have read the article think...

[CosmicMojo]

My understanding is that the reason the day labor sites were developed is the local residents and shop owners were tired of people loitering about. The locals WANTED a neat, orderly place. It was conceived to address residents' concerns. So, as complicated as it is by OTHER issues such as immigration, illegal aliens, and employment off with books w/o paying Social Security, the sites were conceived to benefit the residents, not the laborors.

All those issues, immigration, illegal aliens, and employment off with books w/o paying Social Security, do overlap, but not entirely. We can't assume all immigrants are illegal. We can't assume that all day laborers are employed off the books. Too many assumptions of illegality instead of looking at the problem and trying to solve the problem.

In this case, the problem ISN"T illegal immigration or employment off the books. they are problems and should be addressed, but in this case, the problem is unsightly loitering and the solution is controlled sites. Then, we're off to look at the other problems and find solutions for them. But don't throw out the baby with the bath water. If we deported all the illegal aliens, and ensured every employee was on the books, we'd still have legal day laborers with legal social security withholding looking for day work loitering in the 7-11 parking lot. That's the problem they're trying to address.

[vtboy99]

I'm reading the APA article on Day Labor and it seems to suggest LA is the model to aspire to for day labor programs. WHAT!?!?! The City is spending $1.7 million a year in Federal Funds (another reason to further cut CDBG in my book) with some general fund money as well. Part of these funds are used for training as well. Realizing that 3/4 of these laborers are illegal immigrants, and pulling money from the economy at a rate that surpasses a number of states annual GDP. It appears as though LA is only promoting this and further exacerbating the problem. Shouldn't these places ensure the laborers are legal to work? Now LA is looking at requiring home improvement stores to fund these locations. I see this issue as two prong, one being the illegal workers and two being those that encourage and hire illegals. If cities would take this stand on the issues, wouldn’t this discourage the majority of these people hanging out on the corners waiting for jobs? And then promote the legal aspects of immigration and paying into the federal tax system. These people using day laborers illegally are subsidized by you and me!

Does anyone else feel this way?

Nope, I ABSOLUTELY disagree with you in every shape and form. I think the APA on Day Labor article is timely, informative, and well-written.

You strike me as a bit of a xenophobe and politically conservative reactionary. Are you sure you're not one of those rifle-toting, libertarian, "states rights", vigilante Minuteman patrolling the borders looking for undocumented workers?

[Planderella]

Nope, I ABSOLUTELY disagree with you in every shape and form. I think the APA on Day Labor article is timely, informative, and well-written.

You strike me as a bit of a xenophobe and politically conservative reactionary. Are you sure you're not one of those rifle-toting, libertarian, "states rights", vigilante Minuteman patrolling the borders looking for undocumented workers?

Your comments are completely uncalled for and unecessary. Given the fact that this thread is over 2 weeks old, this leads me to believe that you're doing nothing but trolling. Keep it up and you'll find yourself either suspended or banned.

[vtboy99]

Your comments are completely uncalled for and unecessary. Given the fact that this thread is over 2 weeks old, this leads me to believe that you're doing nothing but trolling. Keep it up and you'll find yourself either suspended or banned.

Why are the comments uncalled for and unnecessary? I am only speaking the truth. Do YOU agree with the xenophobic anti-immigtation laws which were uncussessfully proposed by the illustrious senator from Tennesseee, "Doctor" Bill Frist. Or are you just looking for any comment I post to give me a penalty.

Please elaborate "moderator". And what in the heck is "trolling"? Please define these obscure techie terms for the rest of us.

Go ahead and suspend and/or ban me, I look totally forward to it, you're utterly pathetic and serve a useless job on this forum.

[giff57]

Go ahead and suspend and/or ban me, I look totally forward to it, you're utterly pathetic and serve a useless job on this forum.

And with that comment..... Goodbye

[Vlaude]

I tend to lean conservative but not right wing. I have never voted straight party. But in my opinion to rope yourself into a party just playing into politicians game... I have no problems with legal immigrants, and yes a good percentage of these people are illegals! Look at the facts, the U.S. must start enforcing the existing laws and do it proactively.

My statements were in regards to the PLANNING article and other articles I have read. The issue is not immigration, but illegal immigration and implementing plans that promote it by pushing a big part of the problem under the rug. If these day labor locations ensured every laborer was a LEGAL RESIDENT or LEGAL to WORK then I would have little problem with it. Thats not the case though... Your comments seem way out of line from that standpoint, making a lot of assumptions about my thoughts which were off target by quite a bit...

If you are not banned VTboy I would like for you to answer how I am not subsidizing day laborers? There are so many areas that it is true, and that is why the draw is so large when looking at the big picture. You honestly think things are fine the road we are heading down?

[Michele Zone]

Back on topic:
I don't know what the solution, which is why I haven't posted previously. But I tend to think that we would be better off acknowledging that much of the undesirable work in the U.S. is performed by immigrants -- whether legal or illegal -- and deal constructively with that fact via temporary work permits and the like rather than focusing overly much on pursuing (villifying) illegal immigrants. Farmers and construction companies will tell you flat out that they cannot fill enough of those jobs with Americans. Most Americans don't want to pick crops or build houses. The work is too hard. I once heard someone say that he couldn't get Americans to work his field even when unemployment was very high -- people would rather be on welfare than do that kind of back-breaking labor.

Or, as a comedian sarcastically said: "Yeah, those illegal immigrants stole my career. I wanted to be a migrant farm worker instead of a bank officer."

[DetroitPlanner]

Detroit has buses that bring the Canadian day workers over in droves. Some choose to live here, others choost to live there. Some of those buses go back to Canada with Detroiters who work in Canada.

We don't have much of a problem with it. Yes I am sure we have tons of illegals running around too, but in reality, they are not much of a problem unless they get sick.

[njm]

I disagree with the statement that these workers are 'draining millions' from the economy. While I disagree with the 'they take jobs that Americans don't want' rhetoric--anyone will take a job if they're desparate enough--they are taking the jobs at a wage Americans won't work for. Now you think "that's the point, stupid."

Consider this: if McDonalds had to pay 9/hour instead of 6.50 (or whatever the prevailing wage vs. minimum are in your area) how much more would your Big Mac cost? You'd buy fewer, right? Well, then that job wouldn't be there to begin with. So, in reality, they create jobs for themselves through their willingness to work for less. I know this is a trip down the rabbit hole, and I don't have any data to back me up now (I do need to do a little work today), logical economics would argue that this is the case.

If you want to get rid of the day labor problem, consumers need to watch their spending habits as much as the government needs to enact a stricter immigration policy.

Furthermore, I really think that, as New Mexico is doing, trying to license, educate, and keep tabs on these people is the best solution. Try to turn day labor into week labor and then there isn't a 'day labor' problem anymore.

[Vlaude]

Michele Zone, I am not claiming to have all the answers, nor "The Answer". I'm sure like most problems there are many solutions, some better for some than others.

I agree with you mostly, though 2 notes hit me. One is yes these illegals are just that "Illegal" and should be seen as that. If I decide to work and not pay taxes, steal from someone, etc. I too am doing something illegal. Second, I'm not sure the labor is the issue, but more so the pay. With illegals (specifically in this case majority from Mexico and Central America but regardless of where) the cost of labor has decreased (in regards to the cost of the product) which has shifted these jobs. Similar to what is happening with India, China, etc... But this is occuring here. Germany and a few other European countries have done a much better job with this. People in those countries pay more of the full cost and expect to. If I was king, I would enforce the laws we have now, beef up the border a bit, and encourage those interested in immigrating to go through the proper process. Temporary work visas might be an option, but there is a price for that as well. Its a tough issue.

What is silly is when people claim someone is a "xenophobe" or "bigot" etc. and not addressing the issue. For the record my mothers side of the family is not from America and my cousins who are attending college here are foreign citizens. And if they wish to stay they should do it legally, and I'm sure they will if the time comes.

NJM, just thought I'd add I agree with you (ie. my comments on europe and paying for the additional costs) though as I mentioned the labor costs have gone down in respect to the costs of the finished good in these areas. In Germany you have higher wages at MCDeez, comparatively here, and in return the meals cost more and you pay for your ketchup packets! And we Americans are all about the buck today... - cheap today pay tomorrow - same as the credit card rational...

And (ok a little sarcasm) you are right the illegals are not draining millions from the economy it is well over that!!! California is estimated to be over 10 billion dollars in many modest estimates just using healthcare, education and incarceration. A lot of these don't consider many other harder to obtain numbers. And sure there are some benefits to those using these illegals, but like I said... Going back to my point to begin with - Those who do not use illegal labor are subsidizing them the industry! Like I said its two prong the illegals and the businesses that hire them, IMO...

[Michele Zone]

Michele Zone, I am not claiming to have all the answers, nor "The Answer". I'm sure like most problems there are many solutions, some better for some than others.

Wasn't trying to suggest that. Just saying that it isn't a topic I think a lot about or have strong opinions about, and so forth.

I agree with you mostly, though 2 notes hit me. One is yes these illegals are just that "Illegal" and should be seen as that. If I decide to work and not pay taxes, steal from someone, etc. I too am doing something illegal. Second, I'm not sure the labor is the issue, but more so the pay. With illegals (specifically in this case majority from Mexico and Central America but regardless of where) the cost of labor has decreased (in regards to the cost of the product) which has shifted these jobs. Similar to what is happening with India, China, etc... But this is occuring here. Germany and a few other European countries have done a much better job with this. People in those countries pay more of the full cost and expect to. If I was king, I would enforce the laws we have now, beef up the border a bit, and encourage those interested in immigrating to go through the proper process. Temporary work visas might be an option, but there is a price for that as well. Its a tough issue.

It is illegal because the law says it is. What is legal or illegal is redefined on a regular basis by changing the law. So I don't have a lot of patience for people getting up in arms about something being illegal as if that is some kind of ethical pronouncement handed down by god. I am more interested in examining what solutions might actually work and encouraging changes to law and policy which more closely fit a solid understanding of the issue. Historically, the minimum wage law was passed to force The Deep South to stop paying blacks HALF what they paid whites. The response from the south? Lots of blacks were fired by whites who were (in their own words) unwilling to "pay a black man a white man's wages". Forcing employers to pay higher wages isn't as simple as it might seem.

Objectively, there have always been and always will be differences in what something is worth to various individuals and from place to place. The dollar is worth more in Mexico so people who can feasibly work here and live there or work here and eventually return to living there can reap a huge benefit from the differential. The value-added benefits of exploiting those differentials is too good to pass up. The only "solution" to stopping poor Mexicans from coming here at risk of life and limb would be to raise Mexico up to a level of economic development equal to the U.S. so as to extinguish the valuable differential. Thus, the only reasonable and practical response is for the U.S. to accept the situation and come up with practical policies and laws to cope with the fact that people will continue to take advantage of the differential.

(Go ahead, jordanb, explain how I am mis-using the word "differential". )

What is silly is when people claim someone is a "xenophobe" or "bigot" etc. and not addressing the issue. For the record my mothers side of the family is not from America and my cousins who are attending college here are foreign citizens. And if they wish to stay they should do it legally, and I'm sure they will if the time comes.

Presumably, you mean vtboy99's comments. He has been permanently banned. The forum rules don't allow for personal attacks. It would be best if you let it go and get back to discussing the topic at hand.

[Vlaude]

The law is the law though, what if we as planners decided ok people aren't platting so how can we change the law to make them legal? Is that what you are suggesting?

"So I don't have a lot of patience for people getting up in arms about something being illegal as if that is some kind of ethical pronouncement handed down by god. I am more interested in examining what solutions might actually work and encouraging changes to law and policy which more closely fit a solid understanding of the issue" Michelle Zone

That is a scary statement to me... Questions- Does the U.S. have the right to control immigration? Second, should the U.S. enforce an immigration policy?

Immigration has a process and in my opinion it is not broken (the law) it is the enforcement that is and in my opinion cracking down on those who hire is taking it a step in the right direction. The solution is not to bring Mexico up to the U.S. economy that is like pouring cold and hot water together. It becomes luke warm... The laws in place are to control exactly that. The U.S. is one of the easiest places on earth to immigrate to. The law is in place for a very good reason and should be enforced. Just as I feel platting should be enforced, though many choose ways to sneak things by without it...

[Michele Zone]

"So I don't have a lot of patience for people getting up in arms about something being illegal as if that is some kind of ethical pronouncement handed down by god. I am more interested in examining what solutions might actually work and encouraging changes to law and policy which more closely fit a solid understanding of the issue" Michelle Zone

That is a scary statement to me...

Then I think you misunderstand me.

Let's give this example (something I have heard from time to time): Let's say we pass a law that "rape" is punishable by death. Will that stop rapes from occuring? No. Rape is defined as sex occurring without the consent of the woman. Most date rape is a tragic case of misunderstanding (I have written two papers on that particular topic.) However, if you make a tragic misunderstanding now punishable by death, you may very well encourage young men to murder their victims as a means to try to avoid the death penalty since murdering them wouldn't have any worse punishment than raping them and it eliminates the witness.

I think you have to come up with laws and policies which are likely to actually achieve the goals which prompted their creation. Trying harder and harder to enforce laws which simply don't work is a waste of effort at best and is often a cause of worse problems

I do not disregard the law in how I live my life. But if you want to discuss what might work, I think it is reasonable to assume the law can be changed if current laws and policies simply are not working.

[njm]

NJM, just thought I'd add I agree with you (ie. my comments on europe and paying for the additional costs) though as I mentioned the labor costs have gone down in respect to the costs of the finished good in these areas. In Germany you have higher wages at MCDeez, comparatively here, and in return the meals cost more and you pay for your ketchup packets! And we Americans are all about the buck today... - cheap today pay tomorrow - same as the credit card rational...

They are paid higher because it's mandated. That doesn't mean European countries don't have immigration/employment problems. Instead they have students who go unemployed for 1,2, even 3 years after graduating. And they can't get jobs to 'fill the gap' because they are overqualified. Trust me, Europe is struggling with the exact same problems as we are. At this very moment.

And (ok a little sarcasm) you are right the illegals are not draining millions from the economy it is well over that!!! California is estimated to be over 10 billion dollars in many modest estimates just using healthcare, education and incarceration. A lot of these don't consider many other harder to obtain numbers. And sure there are some benefits to those using these illegals, but like I said... Going back to my point to begin with - Those who do not use illegal labor are subsidizing them the industry! Like I said its two prong the illegals and the businesses that hire them, IMO...

Correction: their employers are costing California 10 billion. In lost revenue. Health care and education are human rights-- we shouldn't be denying them to anyone. The employers who hire people illegally and don't pay payroll taxes, in turn meaning that the employees don't pay income tax... that is the cost.

[Vlaude]

Michele Zone, what works is they leave asap or apply for legal residency. That works, it works in other countries and it can work here. Politicians have just refused to deal with the issue. IMO there is no solution in which they stay illegally, end of story.

NJM, I can't speak for all of europe, but I know that is not the case in Germany. Though they do have immigrants, a big part from Turkey, but it is not the problem it is here in the States. Like I said though I agree with you on the employers half. But to me it is a two prong issue. Crack down on the illegals and the illegal business practices. I wish Bush would have got up the kahuna's to tell Fox to cut the crap. Sure he's not going to do anything when dollars are being sent into the Mexican economy. Why would he want to stop that???

LOL, this is getting a bit off topic I guess, really my question is what do you think about that article? I didn't like that fact that the City is spending federal funds on illegals.

[Michele Zone]

Michele Zone, what works is they leave asap or apply for legal residency. That works, it works in other countries and it can work here. Politicians have just refused to deal with the issue. IMO there is no solution in which they stay illegally, end of story.

I don't recall saying they should stay illegally. What I recall saying is that if current laws are not realistically addressing the situation, rather than screw through the roof like it is a morality thing, change the laws to something which actually fits reality -- such as more temporary work visas.

If that is not clear enough, you may just have to remain convinced of your wildly inaccurate interpretations of my comments because I am running out of patience.

[Vlaude]

Michele_Zone, I never suggested you said they should stay illegally? Not sure why you think that I did? I just stated my opinion...

Work visas are all good as long as taxes are paid to an extent that offset the total costs. It is no different than a developer wanting his infrastructure subsidized by existing residents! I think most planners would agree that its not a good practice. Remember this is not like someone who is coming and living/investing where they are. Many are working and sending money south for investment, so figure in the social security along with other federal taxes, then taxes reflecting the pull on the economy and I am OK with it. Keep in mind that probably negates the value of crossing and sending money back. Which IMO again is a good thing. Work visas won't solve the problem in the proposals I have seen. Well I'll leave it at that.

[njm]

There is no way to stop them from corssing the border. We've spent some 15 years with the 'War on Drugs' and, well, I don't really think we're any better off. Immigration will be the same way. Supply-side just doesn't work. You have to cut off the demand to reduce the problem. That is the only way to reduce the problem. And even then it won't be eliminated. As long as the standard of living in the US is higher, there will be immigration. That is the way it's been for some time, and that's the way it will be forever (imo).

As for Europe, they are dealing with underground xenophobia as opposed to the more open distaste for foreigners-of-a-certain-origin here. Denmark, Netherlands, UK, France, Spain are starting to see nationalist parties gaining strength in certain regions, if not nationwide.

Economically, however, I'd bet they're all struggling with the problem as those in the informal sector get many services (considerably more than the US) and don't pay anything in. I'd be willing to bet that Germany DOES have similar problems... but Europeans are not generally as anti-tax as Americans, so it's easier for these costs to be folded into general revenue increases through higher taxes.

[BKM]

Michele Zone, what works is they leave asap or apply for legal residency. That works, it works in other countries and it can work here. Politicians have just refused to deal with the issue. IMO there is no solution in which they stay illegally, end of story.

Well, given the nightmarish bureuacratic mess that is the American Immigration system, it is easy for us, educated, English-speaking, savvy professionals to make a statement like this. I know too many professionals who have struggled with the system and its endless rules and paperwork.

As for leave, ASAP-are you ready for the sudden departure of millions of people? Talk about economic chaos.

My "solution": there is no solution. Yet. But, don't worry. Conservative economic policy and "fiscally sound" Republican administrations will reduce the United States to penury-and the illegal immigration will slow greatly.

[Vlaude]

BKM, this is not a conservative admin in terms of budget obviously, I worry about that as it seems you might too. About as serious as the illegal immigration problem IMO. Economic chaos? I don't buy it...

NJM it is very easy to secure the borders that is just not true, there are many ways to secure a border, and drastic measures IMO could be justified financially. How many people escaped around the wall in Berlin? How well protected was the Ming and other dynasties protected by the Wall? There are ways of doing it, it all depends on how serious we are. With the drag on the economy I think it is serious. And sure there will be immigration with opportunity and there is nothing wrong with that, but it must be controlled. Now it is chaos.

[Brocktoon]

BKM, this is not a conservative admin in terms of budget obviously, I worry about that as it seems you might too. About as serious as the illegal immigration problem IMO. Economic chaos? I don't buy it...

NJM it is very easy to secure the borders that is just not true, there are many ways to secure a border, and drastic measures IMO could be justified financially. How many people escaped around the wall in Berlin? How well protected was the Ming and other dynasties protected by the Wall? There are ways of doing it, it all depends on how serious we are. With the drag on the economy I think it is serious. And sure there will be immigration with opportunity and there is nothing wrong with that, but it must be controlled. Now it is chaos.

We could build a Korean style DMZ from the Pacific Ocean to the Gulf of Mexico and patrol it like the DMZ in Korea and it will not stop illegal immigration. According to a NBC report 40% of illegal immigrants entered the country legally and overstayed there visas.

Many others use cargo containers via truck, rail or oceanliner to sneak in. With the amount of goods the US imports we cannot screen every container that enters the country (especially when the security conscience Republican majority refuses to increase funding ensure more containers are screened).

A fence is a simple answer to a complex question. It fits well on bumperstickers but is not a real answer. If you really look at hope illegals enter the country you realize the resources are best spent elsewhere. Plus it does not address what to do about the 11-20 million illegals working in this country.

[BKM]

A fence is a simple answer to a complex question. It fits well on bumperstickers but is not a real answer. If you really look at hope illegals enter the country you realize the resources are best spent elsewhere. Plus it does not address what to do about the 11-20 million illegals working in this country.

The same government that conservatives claim can do nothing right (and under the W Admonistration has done almost nothing right) is yet somehow supposed to find, corral, and deport 11-20 million "illegals."

Yeah, right. Someone uptrhead compared it to the ludicrous "War on Drugs," the "deport them all" philosophy would be an even more insidious, creating an ever- growing government police state. What's next, camps? Government checkpoints in every major city? "Where are your identity papers, sir? Do you have a residency permit for this City?"

What's more, the paperwork can be easily counterfeited now. Pontificating about "sending 'em all back" sounds great on Talk Radio and Fox News, but I don't want the invasive and corrupt police state that would be required to do this.