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Thread: Survey of status of women and men in planning

  1. #1
    Cyburbian dandy_warhol's avatar
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    Survey of status of women and men in planning

    i received this in an e-mail from the APA - Women in Planning Division


    "This is a survey about the work environment equity of women and men in planning.

    The purpose of this survey research is to gather information and data about the status of pay, position, race, and gender equity for women and men in the planning profession, both practitioners and academics, not only in the United States, but also internationally. The collected data will be used in an aggregated format, which will protect the anonymity of all respondents. There are five sections to the survey: demographics, employment, education, diversity, and professional activities. The survey may be accessed at LINK

    Thank you for taking the time to fill out the survey and sharing the survey url with colleagues and through contacts you may have with other community planners."
    In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. -Martin Luther King Jr.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    I don't belong in this division because I don't see a need anymore to segregate men and women in this profession - but, I did answer the survey

    I didn't like the questions on experienced discrimination because at first it asked about past discrimination, which did happen to me, but then the continued questions assume the discrimination is happening at your current position, which for me, it is not happening here at all (except with some small population of the public, but not by management, that is)

  3. #3
    Member CosmicMojo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by luckless pedestrian
    I don't belong in this division because I don't see a need anymore to segregate men and women in this profession
    I agree. A few private places I worked asked if I wanted to join the women's real estate roundtable and I always said I expected to network with the big boys or not at all.

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    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Its good to be a man and get paid more. It sucks that we have to work more hours, get less time off for the kids, that sort of stuff.

    I guess I don't understand the point. Women traditionally get paid less because they do not participate in the workforce as long as men do. I know that there are certainly examples of women that do, and those women generally get paid more than their counterparts who get to spend time at home with the kids.

    Men could take that role as easily, but I don't think women in general want to give it up. Its a product of the norms of our westernized culture, nothing more.

    I filled it out. Only discrimination I ever faced was at a university during grad school. The teachers thought it was appropriate to tell jokes about how dumb polish people are and say all arabs and blacks cheat. Being from a polish/black/arabic neighborhood. I was outraged and was told by the mostly waspy school adminstration I was out of order and he really didn't mean it.
    Last edited by DetroitPlanner; 29 Mar 2006 at 2:29 PM.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  5. #5
    Member CosmicMojo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner
    Only discrimination I ever faced was at a university during grad school. The teachers thought it was appropriate to tell jokes about how dumb polish people are and say all arabs and blacks cheat. Being from a polish/black/arabic neighborhood. I was outraged and was told by the mostly waspy school adminstration I was out of order and he really didn't mean it.
    My last boss made a lot of racist and sexist jokes and never knew how to respond. If i was at a party or something, I'd just say "that isn't funny, it's insulting," but you can't do that at work unless you want to get fired. Yet I feel so strongly that ignoring racism only allows it to continue, that the rightous must put down their feet and say "this sort of behavior is not acceptable". One woman laughed at his jokes, but I am not a brown-noser. I'd just try for a "not amused, but not going to make a big deal out of it" look on my face. Guess I'm not a very good actor.

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    Cyburbian cch's avatar
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    Wow Detroit, I take offense to some of what you said. Where did you get the idea that female planners get to take more time off for their kids, and work fewer hours?! I'm the only female planner in an office with 10 men. The only other female here is the secretary. I've never expected to not put in the time it takes to get my job done. When my daughter is sick, my husband and I take turns staying home with her. My husband works in municipal government also, but he never has night meetings or random meetings that run past five. In fact, some of the men in my office don't have the night meetings I get stuck with, but I've never made it an issue because I am just doing my job. I actually get paid more than my husband, but less than most of my male planner counterparts. Maybe I am in the minority, but I put in more hours, occossional don't get to tuck my daughter in at night (as will be the case because of a night meeting tonight), which breaks my heart, and I get paid less than the men, according to the APA salary calculator, anyway. I'm just lucky my husband is such a wonderful daddy to our little girl.

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    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    What floors me is that, in this "age of diversity", it's still okay to bash Catholics- I get this alot here...

    and to say that women with children work less is false - I am the principal wage earner in my household, my husband is the one who slowed down and works those stereotypical "mommy hours" of 9 to 3

  8. #8
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by cch
    Wow Detroit, I take offense to some of what you said. Where did you get the idea that female planners get to take more time off for their kids, and work fewer hours?!
    I am looking at the whole universe of the female population, that is why I kept it general. Okay I do admit I started it off with a smart alec remark, but in terms of years worked, women in general work less. Women of child bearing years are typically out of the office for a half year. Many return to the position and want to work part time.

    My office is approximately 50/50 women to men ratio. Only one male has done part time for child care over the 14 years I've been here, women do this on a much more frequent basis. Women also leave the field after a child is born for several months, this is not the case with male workers who have had children (though it is an option).

    My assumption is that society believes women are paid fairly based upon time put into the job. Women excel at this field, and pay is based mostly on performance; and income is based mostly on how many hours ones works. If one looks at the whole universe and objectively compares male with female planners, male planners generally have higher incomes because they are expected to work longer in terms of hours and years over the career and women are hurt due to being primary child care givers in our western culture. I am also aware that in many cases married couples move because of the opportunity of one spouse outweighs the career of the other. This happens to a male collegue of mine whom I've known has worked with several different agencies, having to start off at the bottom of the ladder because his wife keeps getting moved around by an auto company.

    This statement was not meant to be personalized. Personal situations are different in all cases. I typically work longer hours too even though I am childless. It seems expected of those without kids in my office to pick up the slack for those that do. This is not to bash people with kids, as I'd love to have a dozen of them.

    Bash the catholics? You must be down south where we ain't in big numbers. I like the folks who tell me I'm not christian because I'm catholic (as if its some sort of cult).
    Last edited by DetroitPlanner; 29 Mar 2006 at 7:57 PM.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

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    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    enter soapbox...

    slightly OT: at my Rotary Club meeting today, we had this expert on Islam speak on the misnomers of females in the Islam world - she basically said that it's Fundamentalism in any religion that truly suppresses women, from Puritan Colonial America back to the Inquisition in Europe
    but what is more in keeping with this thread was when she listed out the best countries for women's rights in general and we, the USA, are not ranked first, but are actually ranked 11th - Norway (1st), Sweden, Finland, Iceland, even England were higher - this is due, in part, to the fact that women taking time off for bearing children is not considered a negative notation in work performance or productivity but more is seen as a "well, duh, who else but women can bear children" and it is financially supported -

    and yes, these countries may not have our per capita productivity or economy, but I have seen data to say they are more productive workers and these countries are hardly impoverished - you could argue the value of their more socialist systems, but that is another thread, in a way...they merely see a governmental role in supporting the perpetuation of the species, that's all

    so unfortunately, detroit's attitude is what prevails in this country and is why we are not considered the best place for women to live in this world

    I'm not some radical feminist, like I said, I don't like segregation of women and men in professional organizations and I weathered the discrimination I had in my 20's and early 30's pretty well and gracefully and have done well for myself now despite it -

    but we really have to stop the inherent attitude that the perpetuation of the species is somehow bad for the gross national product - it's a must, to continue the species and we need to see it that way -

    it's just, odd, to me, to see comments otherwise, and I will say I am intolerant of it by anyone under the age of 55, they are way too young to think that way...

  10. #10
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by luckless pedestrian
    -so unfortunately, detroit's attitude is what prevails in this country and is why we are not considered the best place for women to live in this world
    Hey thats not my attitude, thats society's attitude. I don't run society. I approach urban planning from a dual major in Geography and Urban Studies. I have had an obscene number of classes on the culture of poverty, urban economics, cultural anthopology, urban anthropology, physical anthropology. If I did not think this was important, I would not post here, I would not have taken the survey.

    This is simply observed behaviour and cultural norms. Do I like it? No. Do I like the fact that basketball players make millions selling shoes? No. Is there anything I can do about it? No, but I can have an open mind and nudge others to think. I think thought provoking comments are healthy. If you read my posts carefully, there is nothing in there that says "I am of the opinion" or "It is fact that".
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  11. #11
    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    detroit, I do understand what you are saying reflects the way it is -

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    Cyburbian SW MI Planner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner
    Women also leave the field after a child is born for several months, this is not the case with male workers who have had children (though it is an option).
    When men start pushing out the babies, they can take a few months off after the birth of a child.

  13. #13
    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by SW MI Planner
    When men start pushing out the babies, they can take a few months off after the birth of a child.
    Yes - that's exactly my point!

  14. #14
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by SW MI Planner
    When men start pushing out the babies, they can take a few months off after the birth of a child.
    Excellent! I'm going to go sleep around so I can get pregnant once I can figure out all of that technical stuff, then you ladies can catch up to me!

    hmmm thats not how things work?? excuse me, the Pope is on the line he sounds pissed at me right something about lightning striking me dead, I better go.
    Last edited by DetroitPlanner; 30 Mar 2006 at 3:27 PM.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  15. #15
    Cyburbian SW MI Planner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner
    This is not to bash people with kids, as I'd love to have a dozen of them.
    Aww, how cute!! I'm not made anymore (never was really).

  16. #16
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner
    Men could take that role as easily, but I don't think women in general want to give it up. Its a product of the norms of our westernized culture, nothing more.
    It's a product in part of the manner in which American women fought for "equality": in the American tradition, rooted in constitutional language, American women took a "f*** off, we don't NEED no stinkin' men to help us out, we will succeed if you just GET OUT OF OUR WAY!!!" political position. In contrast, European women took the political position that "The reason we are not able to compete on an equal footing with men is because we are burdened with child-care responsibilities. If men and society will do their part and not just dump this entirely in our lap, we can also be successful at paid jobs. Please and thank you." As long as America dumps the burden of child-rearing on women and acts like we are asking for "special privileges" when we take maternity leave (etc), women in America will continue to have to choose between career success and having children. I am not up to commenting on the very ugly potential outcomes I think are possible (even likely) but I feel very strongly that it is not a healthy direction to take -- not healthy for society as a whole and not healthy for most members of society.

    Not interested in picking a fight with anyone. Just throwing out my view on it as someone who researched the topic in my twenties.

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