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Thread: Is the government in the United States Dysfunctional?

  1. #26

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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    Your right... I did not ask for real world examples, because none exist. But I did ask for a realistic solution to what you perceive as a dire problem. Your quotation is well noted; however is not a realistic example. No group in the US can just over turn the government, so it is far from realistic. Furthermore, I now question our full understanding of constitutional law.

    As for Puerto Rico, it may be occupied by US as a territory, but until I see a 51 star on Old Glory, it is not part of the “United States”.

    I hope that you try again because I would be interested to see what answer you come up with. Until you do give a realistic solution, all I hear is a person with a concern whining about what they thing is a problem.


    Thanks for the heads up.

    Well...there were three towns in Spain during the Spanish Civil War that were like totally successful anarchist compounds, man.

    My honest opinion: hard core anarchism/libertarianism like jaws promotes is religious-just like Communism. And, he contradicts himself totally. On one hand, no State. On the other hand, he calls for the absolute right to secceed and form new States. How are these new States by definition less oppressive, since ALL government, ALL States are by his definition evil? And, how would his "private" states not function as States in every real way?

    Officer, I refuse to accept the speeding ticket because I have as of this moment seceeded from the State of California and formed my own Republic of Brian. The boundaries of this republic follow the path of my Subaru.

  2. #27
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    Well...there were three towns in Spain during the Spanish Civil War that were like totally successful anarchist compounds, man.

    My honest opinion: hard core anarchism/libertarianism like jaws promotes is religious-just like Communism. And, he contradicts himself totally. On one hand, no State. On the other hand, he calls for the absolute right to secceed and form new States. How are these new States by definition less oppressive, since ALL government, ALL States are by his definition evil? And, how would his "private" states not function as States in every real way?

    Officer, I refuse to accept the speeding ticket because I have as of this moment seceeded from the State of California and formed my own Republic of Brian. The boundaries of this republic follow the path of my Subaru.
    I was unaware of the towns in Spain. Are they still independent?

    If a location was successful and became fully independent, could they be denied services, utilities, and access off of the property that they owned? Would they need permission from the government to leave their property?

    I just think, of it as OK... you want to be independent, fine. If you work outside of your area, you need a worker visa, we are saying that utilities will not be provided over national boundary lines in this location, and you will not be admitted permission to use any public right of way.
    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense.

  3. #28
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    ^-- No, it only existed for a short time in Spain during the civil war. The anarchists found themselves enemies of both the communist (republican) and the fascist sides of the war. Needless to say they didn't fare too well. But for the short time that they ran those two cities the city economies did fairly well, and anarchist/libertarian sorts have been using it as proof of their ideology ever since.
    Reality does not conform to your ideology.
    http://neighborhoods.chicago.il.us Photographs of Life in the Neighborhoods of Chicago
    http://hafd.org/~jordanb/ Pretentious Weblog.

  4. #29
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    Is government in the United States Dysfunctional?

    It is dysfunctional because Local government has not supported our Constitution. That is why they say in Washington, "All politics is local". Local politicians may not know and understand why they give an oath or affirmation to support the Constitution of the United States - they may go about to change it or to perpetuate certain misleading traditions that are clearly contrary to its true purpose and intent, that “that government is best which governs least”. How often do they criticize and berate the “Federal Government” - aren’t they the enemies of our government. However, they are not entirely to blame. Haven’t they been misled by Urban Planning and Design professionals? I think so and have explained why elsewhere - http://www.geocities.com/douglas36601/background.html

    bud...

  5. #30
    Forums Administrator & Gallery Moderator NHPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by bud
    <snipped>
    I think so and have explained why elsewhere - http://www.geocities.com/douglas36601/background.html

    bud...
    Moderator note:
    Have you posted anything yet where you don't link back to your website? Please, share your ideas in posts here, as it's beginning to look like your sole purpose for posting is to increase traffic to your website....which is a no-no according to the rules of the forums.
    "Growth is inevitable and desirable, but destruction of community character is not. The question is not whether your part of the world is going to change. The question is how." -- Edward T. McMahon, The Conservation Fund

  6. #31
    Quote Originally posted by Whose Yur Planner
    Jaws- I normally don't respond to your rants, but this statement is a tad over the edge. What you are proposing is anarchy. The problem is that anarchism has been tried and it failed. It disintergrated into violence. Government will always have a place because people cannot live peacefully together without it.
    Anarchy has been tried and failed? We're in anarchy right now! There are currently around 200 sovereign nation-states on this planet. They all exist in a state of anarchy towards one another. The biggest states are responsible for more violence than anything individuals could possibly dream of committing. I'm not proposing we move towards anarchy. Anarchy is real, it's now. I'm proposing we deal with it sensibly.

    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    My honest opinion: hard core anarchism/libertarianism like jaws promotes is religious-just like Communism. And, he contradicts himself totally. On one hand, no State. On the other hand, he calls for the absolute right to secceed and form new States. How are these new States by definition less oppressive, since ALL government, ALL States are by his definition evil? And, how would his "private" states not function as States in every real way?
    Governments aren't by definition oppressive. Monopoly governments are. Free governments will be accountable to their citizens and will have to offer competitive terms to their citizens. They will not be able to oppress anyone. Maybe the world will consolidate into a handful of such governments, but since the citizens retain the right the leave their actions will be extremely limited.

    It's only a matter of rights. With the universal human right to choose one's government recognized, the power of states to oppress their mandatory members disappears.

    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    I just think, of it as OK... you want to be independent, fine. If you work outside of your area, you need a worker visa, we are saying that utilities will not be provided over national boundary lines in this location, and you will not be admitted permission to use any public right of way.
    There's already a large outlaw nation living in the United States. They don't have work visas. They don't pay taxes. They have access to all utilities. Nobody wants them in, but nobody can kick them out either. They went on strike this week to show the state they mean business. They're growing bigger every day. Sooner or later something will have to be done about them.

    I'll bet they will become the first sovereign extra-territorial nation in America.
    Last edited by jaws; 05 May 2006 at 2:18 PM.

  7. #32
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jaws
    Anarchy has been tried and failed? We're in anarchy right now! There are currently around 200 sovereign nation-states on this planet. They all exist in a state of anarchy towards one another. The biggest states are responsible for more violence than anything individuals could possibly dream of committing. I'm not proposing we move towards anarchy. Anarchy is real, it's now. I'm proposing we deal with it sensibly.
    People in the northern states live in fear of being invaded by Canada all of the time. I loose sleep over it on a regular occasion!
    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    People in the northern states live in fear of being invaded by Canada all of the time. I loose sleep over it on a regular occasion!
    You see, anarchy ain't so bad after all.

  9. #34

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    Quote Originally posted by jaws
    Anarchy has been tried and failed? We're in anarchy right now! There are currently around 200 sovereign nation-states on this planet. They all exist in a state of anarchy towards one another. The biggest states are responsible for more violence than anything individuals could possibly dream of committing. I'm not proposing we move towards anarchy. Anarchy is real, it's now. I'm proposing we deal with it sensibly.
    This is a pretty sloppy definition of "anarchy," the existence of multiple nation states-none of which are really libertarian. Especially when in multiple other posts you complain that we need to allow for everyone to "choose" their nation state.

    And, you didn't answer my question: how will this work? What about my Republic of Brian when the Highway Patrol stops me for driving 95? If, on the other hand, you do acknowledge the need for/existance of coercive state force in your fantasy world, then how does this differ from current state structure?

    Especially as you have repeatedly expressed support for oppressive cultural minorities and religious sects' "choice" to lock up their women. I don't see much freedom there, but then I still believe in the Enlightenment Project-which the central state has helped implement.

    It's only a matter of rights. With the universal human right to choose one's government recognized, the power of states to oppress their mandatory members disappears.

    More nonsense. In most states, except for a few dictarships, everyone already has the right to leave. Nothing is keeping me in the United States. What you completely ignore is the other side of the coin: maybe the receiving states don't want a flood of people coming into them. How does your system deal with this-especially for states based on racist or theological grounds, freely "chosen" by the citizens (or at least the dominant minority of citizens)


    There's already a large outlaw nation living in the United States. They don't have work visas. They don't pay taxes. They have access to all utilities. Nobody wants them in, but nobody can kick them out either. They went on strike this week to show the state they mean business. They're growing bigger every day. Sooner or later something will have to be done about them.

    I'll bet they will become the first sovereign extra-territorial nation in America.
    Sure. Right. That'll happen. How will they be "sovereign"? They have no unified state-and most of the marchers were legal residents, citizens, or supporters. You're assuming that all the marchers were illegal. Even the illegals still have to obey the basic structure of laws -except the one. They will not be independent of the vast majority of laws governing criminal activities. Even Indians resident on reservations have to obey federal and local criminal statutes.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    This is a pretty sloppy definition of "anarchy," the existence of multiple nation states-none of which are really libertarian. Especially when in multiple other posts you complain that we need to allow for everyone to "choose" their nation state.
    There is no global government controlling their action. There's no "world policeman" enforcing order. The argument that we need such a policeman is therefore invalid.
    And, you didn't answer my question: how will this work? What about my Republic of Brian when the Highway Patrol stops me for driving 95? If, on the other hand, you do acknowledge the need for/existance of coercive state force in your fantasy world, then how does this differ from current state structure?
    You're confusing coercive force and defensive force. The highway patrol has the right to stop you on their highway, and they have the right to exclude you from using their highway. If you do not follow their rules you are an aggressor and force may be used against you.
    Especially as you have repeatedly expressed support for oppressive cultural minorities and religious sects' "choice" to lock up their women. I don't see much freedom there, but then I still believe in the Enlightenment Project-which the central state has helped implement.
    That's a lie. You made this up. It's a new low for you.
    More nonsense. In most states, except for a few dictarships, everyone already has the right to leave. Nothing is keeping me in the United States.
    Only your physical body may leave the United States, only by physically moving to another monopoly. Your property, your home, your business may not leave the United States. Your property is a monopoly of the United States.
    What you completely ignore is the other side of the coin: maybe the receiving states don't want a flood of people coming into them. How does your system deal with this-especially for states based on racist or theological grounds, freely "chosen" by the citizens (or at least the dominant minority of citizens)
    You have no right to be an aggressor on other people, therefore any free government may defend its citizens' rights to exclude others. This prevents a flood of people coming in as long as the people on the receiving end agree that they don't want them.
    Sure. Right. That'll happen. How will they be "sovereign"? They have no unified state-and most of the marchers were legal residents, citizens, or supporters. You're assuming that all the marchers were illegal. Even the illegals still have to obey the basic structure of laws -except the one. They will not be independent of the vast majority of laws governing criminal activities. Even Indians resident on reservations have to obey federal and local criminal statutes.
    The United States government no longer controls what these immigrants do except when they are aggressors against US citizens. It doesn't matter if the law applies to them or not. In practice the law can barely be enforced.

  11. #36
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jaws
    SNIP

    Only your physical body may leave the United States, only by physically moving to another monopoly. Your property, your home, your business may not leave the United States. Your property is a monopoly of the United States.

    You have no right to be an aggressor on other people, therefore any free government may defend its citizens' rights to exclude others. This prevents a flood of people coming in as long as the people on the receiving end agree that they don't want them.

    The United States government no longer controls what these immigrants do except when they are aggressors against US citizens. It doesn't matter if the law applies to them or not. In practice the law can barely be enforced.
    Wow... um Jaws... I hate to break this to you, but businesses, homes (including physical structure), and every aspect of a persons possession can be relocated to other locations outside of the US.

    Additionally, the act of illegal’s being here makes them aggressors. Every day illegals are caught just after they cross the border, and they are sent back.

    Next you will be telling us that seagulls are forming unions to destroy the pain jobs on all automobiles, so we should stop driving while it’s still safe.

    What kind of car do you drive, how far do you drive, and is this because the Canadian government is also dysfunctional? Or are the squirrels telling you to say all this junk?
    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense.

  12. #37
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    The practitioners of government are noble and virtuous on both sides of the aisle.



    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  13. #38
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    Wow... um Jaws... I hate to break this to you, but businesses, homes (including physical structure), and every aspect of a persons possession can be relocated to other locations outside of the US.
    Not land. The point you're missing is that the US maintains a territorial monopoly. Anything within this territory may not exit the monopoly.
    Additionally, the act of illegal’s being here makes them aggressors. Every day illegals are caught just after they cross the border, and they are sent back.
    They are aggressors against the state only. The people seem quite content with having these immigrants around, which is why they hire so many of them. This is also why the state has so much trouble controlling them, the people are protecting the immigrants.
    Next you will be telling us that seagulls are forming unions to destroy the pain jobs on all automobiles, so we should stop driving while it’s still safe.

    What kind of car do you drive, how far do you drive, and is this because the Canadian government is also dysfunctional? Or are the squirrels telling you to say all this junk?
    I have no idea what you are trying to say with this.

  14. #39
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jaws
    Not land. The point you're missing is that the US maintains a territorial monopoly. Anything within this territory may not exit the monopoly.
    Welcome to life! I don't think that you can do what you want in any civilized place. But... boundary lines are changed every day... who owns what... who is responsible for what. One common theme is there is always some aspect of government involved.

    Quote Originally posted by jaws
    They are aggressors against the state only. The people seem quite content with having these immigrants around, which is why they hire so many of them. This is also why the state has so much trouble controlling them, the people are protecting the immigrants.
    If the police or other legal officials who can send them back, do send them back. Do you pull over people who speed?
    Quote Originally posted by jaws
    I have no idea what you are trying to say with this.
    What I am saying is that you might as well be saying that you are having relations with the Easter Bunny. It sounds like you are writing science fiction about how the space aliens are responsible our dependence on the automobile! None of what you say is going to happen as long as either of us are alive, and most of what you have been saying, I have been taking as pure entertainment. Reading your ideas on life is a lot like watching a bizarre film.
    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense.

  15. #40
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    What I am saying is that you might as well be saying that you are having relations with the Easter Bunny. It sounds like you are writing science fiction about how the space aliens are responsible our dependence on the automobile! None of what you say is going to happen as long as either of us are alive, and most of what you have been saying, I have been taking as pure entertainment. Reading your ideas on life is a lot like watching a bizarre film.
    You lecture me about what's going to happen? How often do people dream about projects that are unrealizable, and yet taken completely seriously. The Kyoto protocol has been doomed to failure from the start and still today people cling to it, despite it being obvious that the people that matter aren't getting on board. People talk about taking back the government, about restoring the constitution as the law of the land. They talk about creating a fair welfare system. None of that is going to happen, ever. They put their faith into a system that can't work. They're ignorant of the reality of the system that we live in. You see these discussions on politics where people are saying "we need to do this and we need to do that". People have no idea who "we" is. We, the people having this discussion, don't control anything. They, the rulers, do, and they're not going to suddenly start listening to us. The solutions offered to the dysfunctional congress all imply changing the system from within. The people inside the system are not going to do that. They like the system the way it is. It works for them, but not us.

    All I'm doing is is reacting to our reality. What can we, as in you and I, do? It might not be easy, but at least it's real.

  16. #41
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jaws
    All I'm doing is is reacting to our reality. What can we, as in you and I, do? It might not be easy, but at least it's real.
    You rail against and fight against government. Any time someone takes a position "against" something, they are allowing the thing they hate to define their position. I am too much of a rebel to allow something I dislike to control me in that fashion.

    Some things I am doing which fit with my anti-establishment views and values:
    I participate in homeschooling lists and have a homeschooling site. I do not have any desire to fight the public school system. But I do wish to give both emotional and practical support for those who have fled the system because it simply isn't working for them.

    I have researched on my own time an alternative to the existing rail plan in the county I lived in for five years. I used GIS, economic and environmental analysis and other factors in considering a new rail plan. I have printed off brochures and handed them out at a transportation planning workshop. I have created a website for the project, Solano Rail. I wrote the governor of the State of California and other interested parties earlier this year, when I felt the website was ready for such exposure.

    I founded the Citizen Planners subforum here on Cyburbia in order to support the efforts of other ordinary citizens like myself who are concerned about their community and who wish to be involved and who wish to do so effectively and not merely piss and moan.

    I participate in lists which take an alternative biomedical approach to treating Autism Spectrum Disorders instead of accepting the damning usual answers provided by The Establishment.

    I defy doctors orders and use alternative medicine to get well and do my best to spread the word to others that you can be healhier than what your doctors may claim. I do this by participating in chronic illness forums and I have a small website: Health Gazelle

    If I could figure out how to make the above activities support me financially, I would be happy to continue pouring all my energy into such projects and give up on job hunting. However, so far, there has not been a single cash donation to any of my websites and I have sold a total of one sweatshirt from the Solano Rail site. Which is to say there are REASONS why The Establishment continues and alternatives die on the vine. I live in the real world and I have bills to pay. When I get a job, I will obviously have less time and energy to pour into these other activities. I am sure my contributions will be missed. I am equally sure that when people whine to me about missing my contributions, I will bite back my desire to tell them to either piss off or put their money where their mouth is and donate to my websites.

    Perhaps you could tell me now what you do in support of your anti-government, anti-establishment values -- I mean other than piss and moan and rant and generally irritate the members of this forum.

  17. #42
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    My apologies

    Quote Originally posted by NHPlanner
    Moderator note:
    Have you posted anything yet where you don't link back to your website? Please, share your ideas in posts here, as it's beginning to look like your sole purpose for posting is to increase traffic to your website....which is a no-no according to the rules of the forums.
    Yes. Most of my posts do not give a link to one of my web pages; but I will not give a link back to my website if that is a problem. Thank you for the warning.

    I am sure the government has become dysfunctional due largely if not entirely to the problems of Cities and their lack of intelligent design. So far no one here has denied or admitted to the problem of the fake master plan which I have mentioned several times on this forum. I am sure others in the profession know what I am talking about. I want to make everyone aware of that problem and propose a solution to it. That is what my website is all about.

    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    While I think that most people are confused about the governing process in the United States, I think that not only is it needed, the US would completely fail without it. Additionally I don’t think that it is dysfunctional. I have a good working relationship with my state representative and I feel that for the location, he accurately represents his constituents regardless of his personal beliefs. Having said that, I think that some other places are not so well off, but when push comes to shove, our system could stand some improvement, but is still very effective.
    That is true. The problem is not with the Federal Government; it is with the prevalence of a Feudal system of Government at the State and Local level. That is why they are so much at odds with each other. It has been a dilemma – the cities are bankrupt and must rely on Federal funding to survive. That only perpetuates the problem. I have the solution - YHWH provides.


    bud...
    Last edited by bud; 08 May 2006 at 1:10 PM.

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