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Thread: The Truth? Yes, I can handle the truth.

  1. #1
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    The Truth? Yes, I can handle the truth.

    In a closed thread one poster mentioned Waco and OKC as a shot at Clinton. That resulted in an ad hominem insult, and the end of a thread that was probably in need of closure. But, I had a couple comments and info I'd like to impart, so this has to do with those events...

    Oklahoma City - Sorry, trying to tie this one to something Clinton did borders on the absurd. If there is something I'm missing, fill me in. It was a case of homegrown terrorists killing U.S. citizens, and I don't care what policies, republican or democrat, are in place... they are murderers. It's akin to blaming FDR for Pearl Harbor.

    Waco - There is a very intersting documentary done on the Waco incident, with details shown from overhead infrared cameras that show some things that we were never told. In fact, some of the evidence shows that there was a covered up on several of the events of the day. Now, don't get me wrong, if the ATF, FBI, or the local police show up at your place with a valid warrant, lock yourself up with weapons at your own risk.

    However, I believe the government was spoiling for a fight, with Reno leading the charge. Koresh left the compound all the time, and serving that warrant would have been effortless had it been done elsewhere. Once he was gone, it would have been much easier to go in and search or whatever... so... just tell me the truth!


    Why and when did the government of my country decide it was just fine to lie to me? I'm not talking about campaign promises... we all know those are bull, but just flat out give the public a line of crap instead of the facts! So, as big of a Clinton supporter as I was (Bill... not Hillary), I say this:

    Yes, you had sex with that woman! You lied to Congress and to me! I'd have thought much more of you had you just admitted the truth and moved on!

    Oh, and by the way, we all think you inhaled, too...



    We deserve the truth, from every administration, and not just after some reporter sniffs it out. That's all I had to say...
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  2. #2
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    uh oh.....


    I will say that we can never expect the truth from any administration. Politics are too much of a popularity game and political opponents will use any ammo they can find to play dirty games. Its in politicians best interests to lie.

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    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
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    Well said. That Waco/Oklahoma City tie-in to Clinton was the most ludicrous thing said in forums and that is saying something.
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

    ~ Otterpop ~

  4. #4
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner
    uh oh.....


    I will say that we can never expect the truth from any administration. Politics are too much of a popularity game and political opponents will use any ammo they can find to play dirty games. Its in politicians best interests to lie.
    Actually, they may feel that way, but obviously it isn't the case. If you watch any real trials (I love Law & Order, but...) the attorneys tend to get the truth, especially the ugly truth, in front of the jury quickly. If not, you are percieved as hiding something.

    Politicians are people, so by definition, they are flawed. If one were to own up to failure and ignorance of certain subjects, they would stand head and shoulders over the lying pack of jackals we have now. Sure, we might stand wide eyed and mouths open at first... but I know I could get used to it.


    Quote Originally posted by otterpop
    Well said. That Waco/Oklahoma City tie-in to Clinton was the most ludicrous thing said in forums and that is saying something.
    Well, not exactly what I said. If Janet Reno was leading the charge in Waco, Clinton knew about it. And trust me... Clinton can lie like a champion. I witnessed that stuff first hand. I believe they wanted to go in guns blazing, and led the Davidians right down the path to accomplish the goal. If you get the Documentary Channel, check out the one on Waco. It isn't speculation... you can see for yourself.

    The OKC tragedy... you are certainly correct.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C'mon and get me you twist of fate
    I'm standing right here Mr. Destiny
    If you want to talk well then I'll relate
    If you don't so what cause you don't scare me

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally posted by Mastiff
    It's akin to blaming FDR for Pearl Harbor.
    There are some historians who argue that FDR's policies were designed to drive Tojo to attack, knowning that this would bring us into WWII And, that FDR and elements in the US Government knew some level of attack was coming.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Mastiff
    The OKC tragedy... you are certainly correct.

    Which really was my point. That was the ludicrous remark that I meant to comment on.
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

    ~ Otterpop ~

  7. #7
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    There are some historians who argue that FDR's policies were designed to drive Tojo to attack, knowning that this would bring us into WWII And, that FDR and elements in the US Government knew some level of attack was coming.
    Okay, fine... It's like blaming Isaac Newton for gravity. How's that?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C'mon and get me you twist of fate
    I'm standing right here Mr. Destiny
    If you want to talk well then I'll relate
    If you don't so what cause you don't scare me

  8. #8
    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    I think one of the worst things to happen to politics was the creation of publicists and people who get paid to spin and follow polls - it's amazing to me that any real work ever gets done at the White House

    now, this administration doesn't look enough at the polls or read the newspapers; but they sure have alot of spinsters, wow

    I think you have to care what the public is saying but you also have to weigh in the technical aspects of a decision -

    it's no different than what we do on the local level of deciding which streets to plow first; it should be based upon emergency access first, but that's not always the case - on the federal level, it must be that much more chaotic, I am sure

    and, I don't blame Clinton for OK but he may have trusted Reno a little too much on Waco, and I didn't care that he fooled around with an intern and lied about it - he didn't cause 9/11 and neither did Bush, actually Truman and Ike did if you really want to go back...

    Presidents do influence world events but it's more peripheral than we often think and it's not always apparent at the time

  9. #9
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    I donít know much about the history of those two events so say it was or was not Clintonís fault. One the interesting thing is that it was unlike 9/11 both of these events were caused by domestic terrorism and not foreign.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    both of these events were caused by domestic terrorism and not foreign.
    Can you be so sure?

    Where's was Kennedy's liver during these events?!

    I demand the truth!!

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    Lets see. Before his death McVeigh said OKC was a response for Waco.

    Waco was a result of Reno allowing the use of pyrotechnic CS gas, in turn setting the place a blaze. Lets see...Reno worked for Bill.

    The kooks in this country would have hung Dubya for something even farther removed than this.

  12. #12
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by luckless pedestrian
    I think one of the worst things to happen to politics was the creation of publicists and people who get paid to spin and follow polls - it's amazing to me that any real work ever gets done at the White House

    now, this administration doesn't look enough at the polls or read the newspapers; but they sure have alot of spinsters, wow

    I think you have to care what the public is saying but you also have to weigh in the technical aspects of a decision -

    it's no different than what we do on the local level of deciding which streets to plow first; it should be based upon emergency access first, but that's not always the case - on the federal level, it must be that much more chaotic, I am sure

    and, I don't blame Clinton for OK but he may have trusted Reno a little too much on Waco, and I didn't care that he fooled around with an intern and lied about it - he didn't cause 9/11 and neither did Bush, actually Truman and Ike did if you really want to go back...

    Presidents do influence world events but it's more peripheral than we often think and it's not always apparent at the time
    Quite correct, Truman officially recognize Israel on May 14, 1948, the first country to do so. That certainly has never set very well with the Arab countries... It's almost insane that the U.S. basically did nothing when Isreal attacked the Liberty in '67.

    But, this kind of thing started back then... Covering things up, or making them up, became a practice of government. Or maybe it's always been happening and we just started figuring it out. Either way, the federal boys need a great big truth serum enema to flush all this out.

    Lobby reform, term limits, and accountability.

    Can anyone remember the last time a politician stood up and said they made a mistake?


    Quote Originally posted by Jeff
    Lets see. Before his death McVeigh said OKC was a response for Waco.

    Waco was a result of Reno allowing the use of pyrotechnic CS gas, in turn setting the place a blaze. Lets see...Reno worked for Bill.

    The kooks in this country would have hung Dubya for something even farther removed than this.

    Man, and I thought the woman in Wal-Mart with the fat ass and spandex was a stretch!

    Those Heaven's Gate folks out in California killed themselves because the Hale-Bopp Comet in the sky was their ticket to heaven. By your logic, I guess we should blame the comet for their deaths... Jeff, the only people responsible for killing the people in OKC are the terrorists. You know it and I know it. I'm not sure what "kooks" are blaming the President, nor what issues are involved. If you'd care to mention them, perhaps we could discuss them in a rational and responsible manner. If I blame G.W. Bush for something he has done or not done, I like to think I also have a nexus that shows he knew or should have known about the incident.

    More than anything, however, I would like all of them to quit lying to me.

    Quote Originally posted by Wanigas?
    Can you be so sure?

    Where's was Kennedy's liver during these events?!

    I demand the truth!!

    Trick question! Kennedy has no liver...
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C'mon and get me you twist of fate
    I'm standing right here Mr. Destiny
    If you want to talk well then I'll relate
    If you don't so what cause you don't scare me

  13. #13
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Jeff
    Lets see. Before his death McVeigh said OKC was a response for Waco.

    Waco was a result of Reno allowing the use of pyrotechnic CS gas, in turn setting the place a blaze. Lets see...Reno worked for Bill.

    The kooks in this country would have hung Dubya for something even farther removed than this.
    Let's see. McVeigh was a terrorist that acted on his own in reaction to his deranged feelings about Waco. He could have chosen not to blow the people up. About 270 million American did not blow up people over Waco. McVeigh did. His choice. Has nothing to do with Clinton.

    There is no proof whether ATF or the Branch Davidians set off the fire, though it seems more likely it was the latter. Oh, I know there is a documentary that points the finger at the ATF, and I have seen it. The evidence contained on that documentary is pretty weak and by no means conclusive.

    ATF and Reno could have done it better. That is for sure.

    But Koresh bears the lion's share of the blame. They attacked U.S. government agents while those agents were doing their duty. They could have surrendered at any time during the siege. Koresh had a responsibility to the women and childen in that sect. He violated that trust. He could have sent the innocents out of the compound at any time. Our government had no quarrel with women and children. Koresh chose to let innocent people die to satisfy his perverted religious belief.

    When the government comes with a search warrant, you let them in and give up. If you choose not to, then the consequences of your actions are your own. The U.S. government does not shoot prisoners. You get a trial and due process. Works for the rest of us. Koresh chose lawlessness.

    In the culpability equation I would say the U.S. has 30 percent and Koresh had 70 percent.
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

    ~ Otterpop ~

  14. #14
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by otterpop
    There is no proof whether ATF or the Branch Davidians set off the fire, though it seems more likely it was the latter. Oh, I know there is a documentary that points the finger at the ATF, and I have seen it. The evidence contained on that documentary is pretty weak and by no means conclusive.
    I guess I was a bit more convinced that you... However, I wasn't looking for anyone to blame, I was simply looking to see if the evidence shown contradicted statements made by the ATF and Reno. I found that to be the case... That means, again, someone elected by the people decided it was better to lie to me than be truthful.

    I think Waco was a clustercopulation, and the government bears some responsibility... I'd put it more at 40%. It wasn't as if it unfolded in a hurry, the ATF had plenty of time to plan. Worried about fires? Send it some water cannons and soak the place... Want to gain entry? Try a few of our military trained in that kind of warfare... I assure you they could have gone in, neutralized, and walked out the front door.

    Like I said... I think they were spoiling for a fight.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C'mon and get me you twist of fate
    I'm standing right here Mr. Destiny
    If you want to talk well then I'll relate
    If you don't so what cause you don't scare me

  15. #15
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wanigas?
    Can you be so sure?

    Where's was Kennedy's liver during these events?!

    I demand the truth!!
    It was too drunk to pull something like that off.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  16. #16
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    It was too drunk to pull something like that off.
    Really... It wasn't like any of these victims drowned.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C'mon and get me you twist of fate
    I'm standing right here Mr. Destiny
    If you want to talk well then I'll relate
    If you don't so what cause you don't scare me

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