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Thread: Cul de sac options

  1. #1
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    Cul de sac options

    We are working with a developer for an option of two cul de sacs butting up against each other, with emergency only vehicle access between the two. Anyone have pictures of such a thing I can share?

  2. #2
    Cyburbian nerudite's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by katherton
    We are working with a developer for an option of two cul de sacs butting up against each other, with emergency only vehicle access between the two. Anyone have pictures of such a thing I can share?
    We have them all over town (unfortunately). We are a little cul-de-sac happy here... which goes against my own personal philosophy.

    I was going to post to this thread, but apparently both the attachment function and the gallery upload function aren't working. So check your e-mail for an aerial...

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    Now this is the type of thing I'm against.

    Why may I ask are they designing 2 cul-de-sacs butting up against on another?

  4. #4
    Cyburbian nerudite's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Jeff
    Now this is the type of thing I'm against.

    Why may I ask are they designing 2 cul-de-sacs butting up against on another?
    If it's anything like the town I work for, it's because all the neighbours are complaining about through traffic and the safety of their children. I've recommended against this type of thing over and over, and you can only beat your head against the wall so often.

    Here's the example I tried mailing to the poster.


  5. #5
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    But you'd lose 2 lots by putting in a thru street with that example^^

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    Quote Originally posted by Jeff
    Now this is the type of thing I'm against.

    Why may I ask are they designing 2 cul-de-sacs butting up against on another?

    My neighborhood is an existing neighborhood of 175 homes with two residential streets that are barricaded into a 400 acre farmland parcel to the south of us and were always said to be "Future Road Extenstions". We were all told by various people that they would probably just connect with each other in a U.

    In reality, they just proposed a master plan with 1,400 DU's and our roads connecting "circuitously" down to the major artery. The developer is willing to give up DU's (actually 50 in one parcel), to work with us, and have our street go through to a 25 DU cul de sac, backing up against a cul de sac of his. We need to accommodate emergency personnel, but alleviate cut through traffic to the school north of our community.

  7. #7
    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    I was with Jeff until I saw the pic in Nerudite's post - that's not a bad layout actually -

  8. #8
    Cyburbian nerudite's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Jeff
    But you'd lose 2 lots by putting in a thru street with that example^^
    Yup, yup... but believe it or not, the developers would rather have the emergency access/pedestrian walkway and charge a premium for cul-de-sac lots, than put in a through street or design the streets with the necessary connections and have more lots. It's a totally suburban ideology, and it's ingrained in this area.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    Where are you thinking of connecting???

    If the emergency access was the thru street, and you kept the 2 stubby cul de sacs, you'd lose 2 lots. No developer would ever go for that if what is proposed is allowed.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by katherton
    We need to accommodate emergency personnel, but alleviate cut through traffic to the school north of our community.
    What type of school is it? Is the traffic generated by the residents? If so, I don't think there is a good justification for it. It is poor planning to have two cul de sacs that butt up against each other. Why not go for a choke in the road and some other traffic calming measures instead of a complete closure?

  11. #11
    Cyburbian jmello's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by katherton
    We need to accommodate emergency personnel, but alleviate cut through traffic to the school north of our community.
    By limiting "cut through traffic" you are also restricting the mobility of neighborhood residents, visitors and service vehicles. Inter-connectivity is an important tool to battle congestion of the primary arterials.

    Our city and county require inter-connectivity between all adjacent properties using a complex formula.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian nerudite's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Jeff
    Where are you thinking of connecting???

    If the emergency access was the thru street, and you kept the 2 stubby cul de sacs, you'd lose 2 lots. No developer would ever go for that if what is proposed is allowed.
    It's hard to envision without the larger plan, but originally the two cul-de-sacs were going to be a loop-like (crescent) street, with a connection like a fused-grid pattern, where we wouldn't need that emergency access. The change to the cul-de-sac design was what I was arguing in the first place. I wasn't proposing to put a street where that emergency access is... the developer totally changed the circulation in this portion of the neighbourhood.

  13. #13
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by katherton
    We need to accommodate emergency personnel, but alleviate cut through traffic to the school north of our community.

    Its called a DO NOT ENTER sign....


    Sometimes you can restrict movement, without changing the layout of the streets,

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally posted by jmello
    By limiting "cut through traffic" you are also restricting the mobility of neighborhood residents, visitors and service vehicles. Inter-connectivity is an important tool to battle congestion of the primary arterials.

    Our city and county require inter-connectivity between all adjacent properties using a complex formula.

    We have met extensively with the City Planning Department as well as the Developer. There current traffic study states that only 6% of the distribution will come up through our streets, so the majority is serviced by the other entrance into the development. So if we restrict these entrances to emergency personnel only, it will not impact the majority of the new residents.

    However, we have evidence that their traffic study is flawed, and that number, with the cut through and school (elementary) traffic it will be much higher, which is why we are pushing for the cul-de-sac option.

  15. #15
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    Its amazing how so many of these traffic studies are "flawed" when it gets personal.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally posted by Jeff
    Its called a DO NOT ENTER sign....


    Sometimes you can restrict movement, without changing the layout of the streets,

    Obviously you've never driven in Southern California

    Quote Originally posted by Jeff
    Its amazing how so many of these traffic studies are "flawed" when it gets personal.
    We compared it with three other reputable traffic studies, and one segment alone had a discrepancy of 15,000 ADT vs. 49,000 ADT. Guess which one was from our master plan.

    We took it to two consultants (because I was certain we were not comparing apples to apples), who said at the minimum we could stop everything and get a new traffic study.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian njm's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by katherton
    ...We took it to two consultants (because I was certain we were not comparing apples to apples), who said at the minimum we could stop everything and get a new traffic study.
    'cause a consultant would NEVER benefit from telling you to stop a project and have another study done. I work for an engineering consulting company. I know how that game is played.

    *sigh*

    Just remember that you didn't want the through street when gas prices are so high that driving the extra mile to get out of your subdivision costs extra.

    Seriously people, someday these extra costs will overshadow the gain in property value for houses on a dead-end street. Why do we keep building this way?

    "Because the American lifestyle is not negotiable"
    What luck! A random assemblage of words never sounded less intelligent.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by njm
    'cause a consultant would NEVER benefit from telling you to stop a project and have another study done. I work for an engineering consulting company. I know how that game is played.

    *sigh*

    "
    thank you

  19. #19
    Cyburbian nerudite's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by njm
    Just remember that you didn't want the through street when gas prices are so high that driving the extra mile to get out of your subdivision costs extra.
    I even tried that example at the most recent double cul-de-sac design submission, and I lost big time. Once it's ingrained, it's so hard to get it out of the collective psyche. The worst part is that the person that spearheaded the group that wanted the two back to back cul-de-sacs instead of a through street is an 'environmentalist'. (This isn't from the example I posted above, as this development is in the construction stage right now). When I pointed out the increased pollutants going into the air, on the street, etc. from having to drive a half-kilometre out of the way, for each of the houses on the street x 10 trips per day, etc... and what that would do to the environment, the very next thing out of her mouth was "but the children will be safe". Ugh. Now she's our environmental coordinator for the City. The irony is overwhelming I tell you.

  20. #20
    Cyburbian ABS's avatar
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    Can the local government create a structure plan or ammend the planning scheme to discourage cul-de-sacs or at least discourage the use of cul-de-sacs?
    Great mindless think alike.

    Planning my way out of wet paper bag since 2003

  21. #21
    Cyburbian Planning Fool's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ABS
    Can the local government create a structure plan or ammend the planning scheme to discourage cul-de-sacs or at least discourage the use of cul-de-sacs?

    Some jurisdictions are. Checkout an excerpt from a recent article in RealEstateJournal.com. I think the entire article is available on the Planetizen website.

    "For many families, cul-de-sac living represents the epitome of suburban bliss: a traffic-free play zone for children, a ready roster of neighbors with extra gas for the lawnmower and a communal gathering space for sharing gin and tonics. But thanks to a growing chorus of critics, ranging from city planners and traffic engineers to snowplow drivers, hundreds of local governments from San Luis Obispo, Calif., to Charlotte, N.C., have passed zoning ordinances to limit cul-de-sacs or even ban them in the future."
    Prediction is difficult, especially about the future. :-o
    - Yogi Berra

  22. #22
    Cyburbian ABS's avatar
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    The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp proposed a 'fused grid' concept to replace cul-de-sacs. They paint this 'fused grid' concept as being the solution to suburbia. I think the concept is just as rubbish as the cul-de-sacs are.

    http://www.planetizen.com/node/11193

    http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/flash.html
    Great mindless think alike.

    Planning my way out of wet paper bag since 2003

  23. #23
    Cyburbian donk's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ABS
    I think the concept is just as rubbish as the cul-de-sacs are.

    http://www.planetizen.com/node/11193

    http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/flash.html
    Having had to deal with the person proposing this, I can't believe it has gotten as much press up here as it has.

    From the home of of cul-de-sacs, window roads and other traffic redundancies and nightmares.
    Too lazy to beat myself up for being to lazy to beat myself up for being too lazy to... well you get the point....

  24. #24
    Cyburbian ABS's avatar
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    I only found it by accident looking through the Planetizen archives.
    Great mindless think alike.

    Planning my way out of wet paper bag since 2003

  25. #25
         
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    This is something the city of Chicago did as a part of thier efforts to distribute people from the large projects that became typical of the ghetto over a larger area to aleviate poverty, but I think it's a great set up anyway. It also does somethings cul-de-sacs do. Only cars from the block come in close contact with the houses, and there is a large lawn for children to play on safe from streets. However there is ample access for emergency vehicles and keeps traffic flowing on the outside streets.

    I was going to post a photo but it won't let me upload, i will try again later

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