Narrow two car garages?

[DPP]

My planning group has typically held developers to a minimum of 20 ft for two car garages, which tend to be standard on new homes (in order to keep the streets clear of parking).

Recently however there's been a push on locally from some developers to reduce that minimum to more like 18 ft or less.

The concern is that a garage that's too narrow to easily store two cars will quickly (once the new homeowner finds they can't get in and out of their cars) a one car garage with storage, with the second car being parked on the road. If this happens throughout a neighbourhood of these garages, then the neighbourhood streets become clogged with parked cars.

In talking to other municipalities, it seems like there typically isn't a standard for the width of a garage. I'd like to hear various specifications (if they're out there) what the various widths for double car garages are and how well they seem to work...

I realize that making it difficult to park a second car might encourage a mode shift away from cars, but that might just be me being a transportation engineer putting a good spin on things.

Any thoughts?

Thread moved to Zoning Forum, as off-street parking/garge regulations fall withing Current Planning and Zoning discussions. -- nerudite

[jmello]

Originally posted by DPP

The concern is that a garage that's too narrow to easily store two cars will quickly (once the new homeowner finds they can't get in and out of their cars) a one car garage with storage, with the second car being parked on the road. If this happens throughout a neighbourhood of these garages, then the neighbourhood streets become clogged with parked cars.

Which slows traffic and humanizes the residential streets. Why is it the government's place to dictate garage sizes for private homes? Is this really a public health and/or safety issue?

[Jeff]

What if I wanted to build a 1 car garage? What happens if I feel like using my 20' wide 2 car garage for storage anyway? and park my 2 cars on the street? What happens when I park my 2 cars in the garage but my 3 kids 3 cars go on the street.

Trying to regulate the size of a room (this is essentially what this is), is out of the realm of what govt should be doing. IMO. Whats next? 1,000 sf min. for kitchens?

[nerudite]

Originally posted by jmello

Which slows traffic and humanizes the residential streets. Why is it the government's place to dictate garage sizes for private homes? Is this really a public health and/or safety issue?

Actually, it has become an issue in Alberta. In terms of the United States, most lots in suburban areas are typically greater than 50' in width, leaving plenty of room between driveways for on-street parking. In Alberta the new trend is around 28' to 35' wide lots, some with rear lanes (alleys), some not. We have seen signficant problems with parking, and severe reductions in emergency response times. Note: our streets tend to be a little narrower than in the States as well.

Back on topic:

In the City of St. Albert, Alberta, the requirement is two parking spaces per single family detached dwelling. Each parking space must be a minimum of 2.6 m wide by 5.8 m deep. They do not need to be in a garage, and tandem parking (e.g., the driveway leading up to a garage or two spaces one behind the other) is permitted.

Link to parking regs. I believe the City of Edmonton has similar regulations, and garages are not required there.

[Senior Jefe]

Is this a typical suburban residential development with front loaded garages? If you are counting the garage space as required off-street parking then you need to regulate its size. If you require a driveway deep enough to allow parking in front of the garage and also permit parking on it then why regulate the size of the garage if they already have the required off-street parking. If there are no deep driveways in the development and the streets are too narrow to fully park both sides and still allow emergency access and traffic to pass then you have a mess. Just some thoughts. Good luck.

[mendelman]

Where I work (a 2nd/3rd ring suburb of Chicago) there are minimum garage interior widths in the Building Code:

• 1 car: 12ft x 21.3ft
• 2 car: 21ft x 21.3ft
• 3 car: 30ft x 21.3ft

What are your parking minimum space widths for parking lots? If the proposed garage spaces are essentially the same dimensions as the parking lot space requirements, then 18 feet wide (interior) would seems ok - typical parking space width is 9 feet wide.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by nerudite

We have seen signficant problems with parking, and severe reductions in emergency response times.

Define...problem with parking. I'm guessing this means peeps may have to park down the street a few houses?? There are some blocks in my hood where you are lucky if you can even park on your street.

[Suburb Repairman]

Hmmm... we require two 18'x9' spaces for a typical suburban residence--we don't care if they are in a garage or not and allow tandem.

It seems like most buyers would want the larger garage so it could actually function for its purpose. A small garage down here would negatively affect the sale price and is a characteristic many people around here would not compromise on.

I do think the smaller garage will result in exactly what you talked about (becoming a 1-car with storage). However, this may happen anyway. Some people are just pack-rats.

[Gedunker]

Originally posted by Jeff Trying to regulate the size of a room (this is essentially what this is), is out of the realm of what govt should be doing. IMO. Whats next? 1,000 sf min. for kitchens? Government regulation put an end to the tenements in urban areas that were breeding grounds for disease, squalor, and crime. Absolutely a legitimate function and use of the police power IMO.

[nerudite]

Originally posted by Jeff

Define...problem with parking. I'm guessing this means peeps may have to park down the street a few houses?? There are some blocks in my hood where you are lucky if you can even park on your street.

Usually it involves parking several blocks away (I know, not a big deal), but it also involves a lot of illegal parking (blocking other people's driveways, parking in planter strips or utility rights-of-way, blocking fire hydrants, etc.) It seems to be happening a lot in Edmonton, rather than St. Albert, but we just started allowing the 30' lots recently and we added a lot of regulations to prevent this problem in small lot areas. Note that in my fair city (and in Edmonton), we do not require parking in garages like this user states they do in Calgary. They just need to provide for two parking spaces on site.

Where the real problem comes in, is in those situations where the developers want really puny lots (28' wide for detached housing), but they do not want to provide the rear lane/alley in the back to allow for more parking on the street (few driveways = few curb cuts = more parking).

Personally, I don't think that parking needs to be in a garage.

[jmello]

Originally posted by nerudite

We have seen signficant problems with parking, and severe reductions in emergency response times. Note: our streets tend to be a little narrower than in the States as well.

Couldn't you solve this problem by banning parking on one side of the street or requiring paved parking pullouts in front of homes? The public ROW is more within the government realm (IMHO) than someone's private garage.

Originally posted by Suburb Repairman

It seems like most buyers would want the larger garage so it could actually function for its purpose. A small garage down here would negatively affect the sale price and is a characteristic many people around here would not compromise on.

Let the market decide that, not intrusive zoning regulations.

[Jeff]

I think you do your communtiy a disservice by assumeing peeps actually park in their garage. Most peeps park in the street or the driveway nowadays, b/c the garage is for junk.

[Suburb Repairman]

Originally posted by jmello

Couldn't you solve this problem by banning parking on one side of the street or requiring paved parking pullouts in front of homes? The public ROW is more within the government realm (IMHO) than someone's private garage.



Let the market decide that, not intrusive zoning regulations.

One thing I forgot to state is that the market toleration for small garages in Texas is likely much different than Alberta. For all I know people up there don't care how big their garage is.

Banning parking on one side of the street seems like it would be the best move... you could require a three-car garage and probably still have one car bay used with the other two bays filled with junk.

You could also require an additional parallel parking space on the rear alley or something.

[abrowne]

We're hands off at my municipality. If they want a uselessly narrow two-car garage, it's their own concern. We check setbacks and other matters. Planning requires X amount of off street parking, so as long as 2 cars CAN fit in their "two car garage," we're good. Comfort or ease of use isn't really our role to regulate.

[jmello]

Originally posted by Suburb Repairman

...you could require a three-car garage and probably still have one car bay used with the other two bays filled with junk...

That would be wholly excessive and a bit indulgent. Not to mention the fact that you would be excluding a whole market segment from purchasing housing in the community (i.e., people who do not want or cannot afford ridiculously large three-car garages).

[otterpop]

We have a two-car garage that is really too narrow for two cars (built in the 1950s). Our town doesn't have width standards for garages, just setbacks.

We have a very wide driveway as well, so I park the old car in the driveway. The "good" car and my canoe go in the garage. I use the garage becasue it keeps the car safe from vandals and I don't have to scrape my windshield on winter mornings. We have the normal amount of junk in there too.

[jmello]

Originally posted by Jeff

Whats next? 1,000 sf min. for kitchens?

Yes! As long as it keeps "those people" out.

[cch]

We are one of the few households in our neighborhood that actually uses our garage for parking our vehicles. I'm shocked when I get a glimpse inside some of them, stacked with junk and toys. But who cares?! It is stupid to build a garage more narrow than 20' (our 20-footer still makes if difficult to get in and out of the two vehicles), but I don't see a point in regulating it. If you don't want people parking on the street, than address whether street parking is allowed... not whether garages have to be a certain size. Cause even if they are 20', who can tell them they have to use it.

[Suburb Repairman]

Originally posted by jmello

That would be wholly excessive and a bit indulgent. Not to mention the fact that you would be excluding a whole market segment from purchasing housing in the community (i.e., people who do not want or cannot afford ridiculously large three-car garages).

Sorry I wasn't clear... I was saying that it doesn't matter how large the garage requirement is, you cannot effectively control how they use it.

I am by no means advocating 3-car garages, just using it as an example that more space doesn't necessarily mean it will be used for its intended purpose.

[imaplanner]

I have recently permitted some two car garages that were about 10 feet wide.


Of course they were about 35 feet deep. But we allow tandem parking.

In general I am a big fan of letting the developers choose how to provide for things like this based on market conditions. In some areas that works well and in others it can be terrible so use with caution.

However, you gotta figure you need at least 8 feet of width for each car. 16 feet in width would probably be the absolute minimum needed.

[Wulf9]

Our basic requirement is 9 feet wide for open spaces and 11 feet if the space is adjacent to a wall. So a 2 car garage has to be 22 feet.

[Jeff]

I just remembered that alot of the jobs I do down in FL, actually require the cars to be parked off street during evening hours, with garage parking "encouraged" (HOA Rules). The driveways are usually only about 20 x 20, which in turn forces you to put your 3rd car inside.

Of course, these are front entry 2 car garages (with an additional 1 car garage for the golf cart).

[jmello]

Originally posted by Jeff

I just remembered that alot of the jobs I do down in FL, actually require the cars to be parked off street during evening hours, with garage parking "encouraged" (HOA Rules).

HOAs are not government organizations and can impose whatever ridiculous rules and regs the homeowners see fit. It is my argument that the local, state or federal governments should not be interfering in issues that have no effects to the health, safety or welfare of the existing community [i.e. garage size, kitchen size, siding type (w/ possible exeption for vinyl due to enviro concerns), etc.].

[Jeff]

^^Dude, just adding to the discussion. Calm down.

[nerudite]

I just remembered in my first job in Davis, we had a requirement that the garages be kept clear of junk.

from Davis's Zoning Ordinance:
(f)Dwellings, single-family, one covered and one uncovered off-street parking space for dwellings containing four or fewer bedrooms (See section 40.01.010 for definition of "bedroom"); one covered and two uncovered off-street parking spaces for dwellings containing five bedrooms; a six bedroom dwelling unit will now require four spaces; a seven bedroom home will now require five spaces, and so on. Additional spaces may be required as part of the approval of a conditional use permit or final planned development. See section 40.25.120 for covered parking exceptions.