Urban planning community

+ Reply to thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 40

Thread: Israel/Lebanon Conflict

  1. #1
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
    Registered
    May 2005
    Location
    Metro Detroit
    Posts
    6,420

    Israel/Lebanon Conflict

    I'm curious as to everyone's viewpoint on the acts of war that have been taking place between Israle and Lebanon, all over two kidnapped soldiers.

    Seems like such an unwarranted thing for Israel to do over at firts one kidnapped soldier. Although I really don't have strong feelings either way, I believe that Israel is a warmongering nation, bent on having their way at almost all cost.

    On the other hand, I can see how Israel would be overly defensive (or should I say offensive) when confronted by adjacent nations who may seek your downfall.

    Any thoughs on how this play out? Or how it might influence Iran/Iraq/US actions in the Middle East?
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  2. #2
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Someplace between yesterday and tomorrow.
    Posts
    12,566
    This conflict runs much deeper than just a few kidnapped solders. When you mix land control with religion, there is no hope for peace. This will continue at varying degrees until one side backs down, or is eliminated.

    Off-topic:
    btrage, would you like to join us for Stanfest in Kalamazoo on Saturday? (LINK)
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  3. #3
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
    Registered
    May 2004
    Location
    Snarkville
    Posts
    6,591
    I think this thread has the potential to get very ugly. But I will play anyways.

    Israel I believe has been the one to escalate tensions. I think that they have a legitmate interest in attacking hezbollah on Lebanese soil -since the "terrorists" are using Lebanon as a location from whcih to attack israel. However, Israel seems to always take a response to any palestinian action which is far greater than necessary and far greater in scope than whatever the original palestinian action was.

    In any case- things are not looking good for global stability right now. Stuff like this is what causes world wars

  4. #4
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
    Registered
    Jun 2003
    Location
    at the neighboring pub
    Posts
    5,325
    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner
    I think this thread has the potential to get very ugly. But I will play anyways.

    Israel I believe has been the one to escalate tensions. I think that they have a legitmate interest in attacking hezbollah on Lebanese soil -since the "terrorists" are using Lebanon as a location from whcih to attack israel. However, Israel seems to always take a response to any palestinian action which is far greater than necessary and far greater in scope than whatever the original palestinian action was.

    In any case- things are not looking good for global stability right now. Stuff like this is what causes world wars
    You are correct that this could get quite ugly.

    I agree with you 100% that Israel is the one escalating tensions. Responding to a soldier kidnapping with an invasion is not appropriate, IMO.

    My question is... would Israel do this kind of posturing if we weren't in their back pocket?

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  5. #5
    My prediction: The US wil be at war with Iran before the end of this year, Israel will handle the Hezbollah end of the Iranian government.

  6. #6
    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
    Registered
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Wishing I were in Asia somewhere!
    Posts
    9,810
    Blog entries
    5
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    This conflict runs much deeper than just a few kidnapped solders. When you mix land control with religion, there is no hope for peace. This will continue at varying degrees until one side backs down, or is eliminated.
    Precisely. My husband is a Christian Arab with Israeli citizenship. His family lives in the northern part of Israel a bit inland from where Haifa is. They are fortunate in that they have never seen much in the way the violence and discord marks much of the rest of the country. It is interesting though, because the Christian Arabs are considered to be aligned with the Muslim Arabs by the Israeli government and the Muslims think they are aligned with the Israeli Jews. Talk about being in the middle of a fight! My husband often jokes that Israel is the 51st state in the U.S. and that it would be in no way as successful as it is if it weren't.
    "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" Jeremiah 22:16

  7. #7
    Cyburbian
    Registered
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Townville
    Posts
    1,047
    First anyone particpating in this thread must read multiple news reports of this event. This was not just a kidnapping. There was one act of War by Hezbollah and imo Lebanon for allowing them to operate there without impunity.

    Armed Hezbollah troops stationed in the Country of Lebanon crossed the border into Israel attacked Israeli Defense Forces, killing 8 soldiers and kidnapping 2. That is the story.

    To call Israel warmongering is insane. They are surrounded on all sides by people who have pledged allegience to anhillating them from the earth.

    This will get ugly, especially if this thread is designed to attack Israel and ignore the true purveyors of evil in the region--Iran and Syria.

    Wake Up Everybody!

  8. #8
    Sometimes it's hard to tell who is worse off, Palestinians or Iraqis. Palestinians have been a damned nation for several generations, but life in Iraq is deteriorating so fast they could very well catch up to them.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
    Registered
    May 2004
    Location
    Snarkville
    Posts
    6,591
    Quote Originally posted by gkmo62u
    First anyone particpating in this thread must read multiple news reports of this event. This was not just a kidnapping. There was one act of War by Hezbollah and imo Lebanon for allowing them to operate there without impunity.

    Armed Hezbollah troops stationed in the Country of Lebanon crossed the border into Israel attacked Israeli Defense Forces, killing 8 soldiers and kidnapping 2. That is the story.

    To call Israel warmongering is insane. They are surrounded on all sides by people who have pledged allegience to anhillating them from the earth.

    This will get ugly, especially if this thread is designed to attack Israel and ignore the true purveyors of evil in the region--Iran and Syria.

    Wake Up Everybody!

    Not sure that Iran and syria have much to do with this current conflict- despite Bush's assertion that it is all Syria's fault.

    As I understand it the story begins well before the recent kidnapping of two soldiers. Originally Hezbollah kidnapped one soldier and wanted to negotiate his release for the release of certain palestinians. Israel then raided gaza and buzzed targets in lebanon- which was an act of war. Israel also bombed the main power plant in Gaza and cut of fuel pipelines such that most of gaza is still without power- including hospitals. In response to the kidnapping of the one Israeli soldier Israel attacked Gaza and killed more than 50 palestinians.

    Hezbollah then crossed the border and kidnapped two more soldiers and Israel attacked Lebanon - including firing missles into residential areas (which is not uncommon for them to do).

    REcently most parties have stated that they do in fact recognize Israels right to exist http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5515690

    Also of note is that 4 times as many palestinians have been killed in this conflict than Israelis.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violenc..._conflict_2003

  10. #10
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
    Registered
    Jun 2003
    Location
    at the neighboring pub
    Posts
    5,325
    Quote Originally posted by gkmo62u

    This will get ugly, especially if this thread is designed to attack Israel and ignore the true purveyors of evil in the region--Iran and Syria.

    Wake Up Everybody!
    I read reports from about five different international sources on this (people should do that for any kind of international coverage).

    Iran and Syria are both instigators in the region--I certainly don't question that. What I don't agree with is the broad military response, naval blockade and invasion by Israel in response. It is not an equitable response and serves to unnecessarily escalate tensions in the region. Israel's foreign affairs tend to operate with a "shoot from the hip" mentality, meaning they often act out of emotion rather than critical consideration. Israel has every right to enter Lebanon to attack the source position, but what they've done is a broad-based, unilateral invasion.

    This would have been an excelent job for covert ops rather than a very visual response.


    I've been very disappointed in the turn in events over the past week in the region. Tensions were really beginning to improve between Palestine and Israel, and Israel, Syria and Lebanon weren't hurling missiles at each other anymore.

    I feel really sorry for the Christian Arabs. Its like they are caught in the middle and just along for the ride.


    EDIT: Nice sockpuppet Jeff.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  11. #11
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Southern Antarctica
    Posts
    1,003
    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner
    ....In any case- things are not looking good for global stability right now. Stuff like this is what causes world wars
    I agree. Scroll down a bit to the Wednesday July 12, 2006 entry on the urban survival site: http://urbansurvival.com/week.htm
    Check out the article "WWIII Libretto". The author gives his interpretation of the ralation between various ongoing world conflicts, and how they may be shaping up to what could be called WWIII. Things are looking quite grim at the moment.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  12. #12
    Cyburbian
    Registered
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Santiago, Chile
    Posts
    4,767
    Considering that most of this could be eased with the creation of the Palestinian State. I won't say it'll end... because it won't. Fundamentalism is the plague of that area and it's the cause of all the conflicts. And sadly it's also "democratic"... moderate views are the minority.

    A part of me would like to see the nukes Israel has go off in all middle east... that'd be a nice ending of the conflict... wipe it all out.

  13. #13
         
    Registered
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Funky Town, CO.
    Posts
    432
    My understanding is that Hamas and Hezbollah kidnaped the soldiers knowing that Israel would react as they always do; with overwhelming force, which makes Israel look like it is over-racting to at least half the world. These groups don't want peace, they want all the lands and not just what Israel is willing to give up. They are not going to get it thru peace. They are only going to get it if thru a larger conflict.

    As it has for the last 60 years the major issue is containment. Will the conflict expand into the larger region? We don't have the USSR anymore as a counter-balance to U.S. influence. That could be good or bad. We do have a on-going conflict in Iraq which may act to calm possible military actions by the U.S. if things start to spread. We also have to worry about our economy if a larger conflicts spawns another oil embargo. If you think $3.00 a gallon gas is bad just wait!

    The best case scenario is Israel kills some more people, declares victory and then pulls back. And then the whole thing is repeated again and again.

  14. #14
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
    Registered
    May 2005
    Location
    New Town
    Posts
    3,859
    Indeed, this is an extremely complex situation with a great many levels of manipulation at play (Israel, Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority).

    Here's how I see it:

    Hamas and Hezbollah are both groups that are not specifically tied to a national government (although Hezbollah does has representation in the Lebaese government, it maintains a certain level of independence - more on that below) and who have historically used terrorism as a means to push their agenda forward. They have been heavily influenced and armed by Iran, in cahoots with Syria who allows arms trade and money to flow through Damascus. Both of these groups, IMO are working with Iran to marginalize the moderate voices on their side (The Palestinian Authority's Mahmoud Abbas and the Lebanese national government) and broaden their Islamist base. This is also in Iran's interest as they would like to expand their model of Islamic government in the region.

    In this regard, I think Israel's response is exactly what these parties hoped for in that this overwhelming use of force is serving to push a great deal of the "moderates" in the population to a more extreme position. I think in this regard, Israel is in the extremely difficult position of needing to exercise restraint and find a more creative and selective response (which is not to say this should not involve military action).

    Hamas has launched 700 rockets into Israel since the Gaza pullout, and so this capture of the first Israeli soldier (crossing the international boundary, btw) was clearly an escalation of an already antagonistic stance. Israel is beginning to feel that they made a mistake in pulling out of Gaza, and this action is in part meant to raise the possibility of re-occupation.

    Hezbollah is a tricky situation. They are a group with a private army that controls a significant portion of South Lebanon - a state within a state of sorts. In many ways, they are similar to Moqtada al Sadr's Badr Brigade in Iraq in that they are militarized and, in order to deal effectively with them, the government of Labanon (just as in Iraq) has encouraged them over the years to transform themselves into a political player rather than an independent army. This is still in process, so what you have is government representation by Hezbollah, but an unwillingness to disarm and allow the national army to control the south.

    Compounding all of this is the fact that the Hezbollah army is more powerful than the Lebanese national forces. Israel is trying to pressure Lebanon to reign in Hezbollah and is holding the Lebanese government responsible, but many scholars agree that the Lebanese army has really no ability to control Hezbollah. Forcing them to try to do so, some fear, will result in Hezbollahe pulling out of the government and clamping down on their territorial control.

    I think in this regard, Israel is, again, unwittingly marginalizing the more moderate national government role by pressing them to do something they really can't execute. I think this is what Hezbollah wants because, now that it is a national party, they would like to expand their influence.

    In my worst fears, I see this escalating into a regional conflict in which the US will be pulled into playing a larger role. As things breakdown further in North Korea and our forces are spread too thin, there is a real fear of a worldwide conflict in which we, as the main "superpower" are hampered in our ability to keep the peace, as it were. Of course, our action in the last 6 years have served to antagonize more than resolve, but that's another posting...
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  15. #15

    Registered
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Solano County, California
    Posts
    6,468
    Quote Originally posted by Senior Jefe
    My understanding is that Hamas and Hezbollah kidnaped the soldiers knowing that Israel would react as they always do; with overwhelming force, which makes Israel look like it is over-racting to at least half the world. These groups don't want peace, they want all the lands and not just what Israel is willing to give up. They are not going to get it thru peace. They are only going to get it if thru a larger conflict.

    As it has for the last 60 years the major issue is containment. Will the conflict expand into the larger region? We don't have the USSR anymore as a counter-balance to U.S. influence. That could be good or bad. We do have a on-going conflict in Iraq which may act to calm possible military actions by the U.S. if things start to spread. We also have to worry about our economy if a larger conflicts spawns another oil embargo. If you think $3.00 a gallon gas is bad just wait!

    The best case scenario is Israel kills some more people, declares victory and then pulls back. And then the whole thing is repeated again and again.
    Oil topped $76/barrel, a new record. Throw in rising interest rates, major indebtedness public and private, the abandonment of a real economy, plummeting home sales....well...they don't call me gloomy for nothing.

    Interesting rant on this topic, from the anti-war, somewhat peftist Empire Burlesque blog..

    Quote Originally posted by Chris Floyd
    To say that the "government of Lebanon" – and thus, by extension, the ordinary people of Lebanon who, as usual, are bearing the deadly brunt of the Israel's assault – is responsible for Hezbollah's attack is an outright lie, and the Israeli leaders know this. They know full well the dicey political situation in Beirut: the fragile, patchwork coalition between sectarian factions that only recently fought a long, savage civil war, and the great weakness of the central government, its demonstrated inability to disarm Hezbollah's militia without risking the renewal of civil war. They know full well that that the armed wing of Hezbollah launched its idiotic raid without the knowledge or approval of the Lebanese government – and probably without the knowledge of the two Hezbollah members in the cabinet, much as the political side of such movements are often kept deliberately insulated from military decisions, as with the IRA, ETA, the ANC and other groups. They know all this, yet they have now launched their second campaign of collective punishment – a blatant war crime, whatever the ostensible provocation.

    But not only is this policy brutal and immoral, it will doubtless prove to be stupid and ineffective as well. There can be no lasting benefit for Israel in destabilizing Lebanon, in wreaking indiscriminate slaughter among Shiite civilians (provoking God knows what blowback from the Shiites in Iraq), in further grinding the Palestinian population into the dust. The latter approach has already elevated Hamas, Israel's most deadly enemy, into legitimate government power. There is great and bitter irony in Israel's ruthless determination to destroy the democratically elected Hamas-led government, when it was Israel that nutured Hamas for years, cynically giving covert support to the violent sectarians as a way to divide and weaken Palestinian society and undermine its secular, nationalist leadership.

    Here we see echoes of the great American folly of helping arm, train and fund a worldwide army of Islamic extremists to bedevil the Soviets in Afghanistan – a bipartisan policy, by the way, which began under Jimmy Carter, who actually began supporting some of the most virulent jihadis on earth before the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. In fact, as Carter's Condi, Zbigniew Brzezinski now freely admits, the arming of Islamic extremists was done in order to destabilize the secular, Soviet-backed Afghan government of the time and draw Moscow into a direct intervention. "We can give them their own Vietnam!" Zbig exulted, and the saintly Jimmuh agreed. This covert op was greatly expanded under the Reagan-Bush administration, of course. So thanks, guys, thanks all around: you gave Russia its own Vietnam, all right – and we got our own 9/11 out of it. A real bargain that was.

    Actually, it was a bargain – for the war pork industries and the war profiteers in the American elite. Russia's military intervention to save the secular government in Afghanistan was used as a justification for a big goosing up of "defense" spending in Washington – again, beginning under Carter, then taking a quantum leap as Ronald Reagan pointed his quivering figure at the "evil empire" ravaging the "freedom fighters" like Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan and shovelled even more loot at the masters of war. And the fact that it eventually led to the vast blowback of the "War on Terror" has also been nothing but gravy for the militarist faction and the "investment class," that beast with two backs that now finds its apotheosis in the Bush Regime. That initial arming of the jihadis is the gift that keeps on giving for all those who build their fortunes on blood and destruction.)

    The same dynamic continues to play out its bloody course in the Middle East. Israel's two-front war of collective punishment will only increase the amount of sectarian extremism in the powder-keg region. It will only split Lebanon into warring factions again – or else unite them in anti-Israeli fury. It will without doubt only increase the support for violent resistance and religious extremism in Palestine, which will of course result in many more Israeli civilian deaths, though always on a level far below the slaughter of Palestinian civilians. And it will only further degrade Israel's standing in the world, leaving it more isolated and threatened than before.

    All this is just on the local level; but if we may once more evoke the Bronze Age deity who has spawned the three primitive sects at the center of this relentless maelstrom of blood and suffering, God only knows how the Israeli incursions will reverberate in the wider world. But fresh hell is coming – that's guaranteed.
    Last edited by NHPlanner; 01 Dec 2006 at 1:10 AM.

  16. #16
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
    Registered
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Land of Confusion
    Posts
    3,740
    Now Israel is blaming Iran for giving Hezbollah those missles. Looks like Iran is next of the Israeli hit list.

  17. #17
    Now Israel is blaming Iran for giving Hezbollah those missles. Looks like Iran is next of the Israeli hit list.
    Hezbollah is basically a military wing of the Iranian government so for Israel to place blame on Iran is pretty logical. I don't know how often Israel publicly calls Iran out in these situations, that could be something new, I'm not sure?? I think it's in the US's court as to what should be done about Iran, the US is already in a war with Iran in Iraq and soon the US will be dropping bombs on their military and known nuclear facilities. That's what I'm thinking anyway.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
    Registered
    May 2004
    Location
    Snarkville
    Posts
    6,591
    They have also been saying that their soldiers might be being moved into Iran.

    The thing is hilldweller that Iran did give hezbollah those missles. Iran provides the major monetary and military support for hezbollah. They arm hezbollah in lebanon and Syria allows Iran to do so through Syria.

    If Israel moves against Syria or Iran all hell is going to break loose.

  19. #19
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
    Registered
    Jun 2003
    Location
    at the neighboring pub
    Posts
    5,325
    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner
    They have also been saying that their soldiers might be being moved into Iran.

    The thing is hilldweller that Iran did give hezbollah those missles. Iran provides the major monetary and military support for hezbollah. They arm hezbollah in lebanon and Syria allows Iran to do so through Syria.

    If Israel moves against Syria or Iran all hell is going to break loose.
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I've certainly got the "gloom & doom" feeling about all of this. This is turning into a royal mess. Two decades of work toward peace destroyed in the space of about a week.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  20. #20
    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2005
    Location
    in a meeting
    Posts
    8,537
    Regardless of who anyone thinks is in the right or in the wrong on this - I do believe we are witnessing the beginning of WW III - I know I sound like a conspiracy theorist - but look at how it's shaking out and we're in the middle of it all -

    scary stuff if you ask me -

  21. #21
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2004
    Location
    on my 15 minute break
    Posts
    18,055
    Quote Originally posted by luckless pedestrian
    Regardless of who anyone thinks is in the right or in the wrong on this - I do believe we are witnessing the beginning of WW III - I know I sound like a conspiracy theorist - but look at how it's shaking out and we're in the middle of it all -

    scary stuff if you ask me -
    I hate to say it, but it's feeling more and more apocalyptic to me too!
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  22. #22
    maudit anglais
    Registered
    May 1997
    Location
    Odd-a-wah
    Posts
    6,586
    What a great time to be going on vacation at an isolated spot nowhere near any potential targets.

    I'm outta here!

  23. #23
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
    Registered
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Land of Confusion
    Posts
    3,740
    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner
    They have also been saying that their soldiers might be being moved into Iran.

    The thing is hilldweller that Iran did give hezbollah those missles. Iran provides the major monetary and military support for hezbollah. They arm hezbollah in lebanon and Syria allows Iran to do so through Syria.

    If Israel moves against Syria or Iran all hell is going to break loose.
    Apparently Israel has gotten to the point where it really doesn't care about the implications of a broader conflict, or else they wouldn't have acted as they did and wouldn't currently be pointing their finger at Iran. Iran and Syria don't want a piece of Israel IMO. They both know that if they keep acting up the israelis will turn their cities into ashtrays.

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Capital District, Albany, New York
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally posted by Suburb Repairman
    My question is... would Israel do this kind of posturing if we weren't in their back pocket?
    They certainly wouldn't be behaving this way without believing the U.S. supports them. Of course, without a history of U.S. support, the Israelis would be an exterminated people.

  25. #25
    Cyburbian
    Registered
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Santiago, Chile
    Posts
    4,767
    Israel really needs to calm down here... But they won't do so because they rely on US support and they're safe and sound. Heck probably Israel will convince the US that taking on Iran is a good way to leave Iraq... point the guns elsewhere and the world won't give a damn that you leave a huge mess in Iraq... just like Afghanistan... Oh sorry gotta go to invade Iraq so your on your own now Afghans...

    Well, if Israel had a bigger army they would be the counterweight of Iran... but Iran would also have to have nukes as counterweight to Israel's nukes... kind of like the Pakistan-India situation.

+ Reply to thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

More at Cyburbia

  1. Conflict of Interest
    Career Development and Advice
    Replies: 3
    Last post: 13 Sep 2013, 2:47 PM
  2. Scenario - Iran nukes Israel
    Friday Afternoon Club
    Replies: 27
    Last post: 28 Oct 2005, 3:32 PM
  3. Conflict resolution
    Career Development and Advice
    Replies: 7
    Last post: 05 Jun 2005, 7:50 PM
  4. Replies: 10
    Last post: 18 Apr 2003, 1:41 PM