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Thread: Israel/Lebanon Conflict

  1. #26
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    All indications are that Israel will take this further - if they stay true to their stated goal of defeating Hezbollah I would imagine they will have to invade Syria and Iran. The US hawks seem to like the idea of invading those two countries as well so my guess is there is some level of secret communication that has happened between us and Israel regarding this.

    My guess is Israel invades Syria to draw Iran into it which would then draw us in. Unfortunately I think that that could also draw China and/or Russia into it at at least some level.

    Then for good measure why not have North Korea invade South Korea and Japan.

  2. #27
    Cyburbian AubieTurtle's avatar
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    So what happens if this gets the general public in Islamic countries really fired up? Are they going to like the House of Saud or General Musharraf if they decide to stand on the sidelines? I don't think it would take much to have a revolution in either of those countries. Pakistan might get distracted by India but do remember Pakistan is a nuclear state. Revolution there is not something Israel really would be happy to see. I suspect that if Israel chooses to escalate this into a nuclear conflict, someway somehow nuclear retaliation will come to Israel. Just where did all that former Soviet nuclear technology and supplies go?

    ...ugly ugly ugly...
    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - H.L. Mencken

  3. #28
    Cyburbian LadyBuc's avatar
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    Time to start drinking heavily…this is not going to go away.
    Way to go, “W”!!! (And yes, I partially blame him). If we can, as a leading nation, can go ahead and invade a country because we “feel like it”, anyone who feels protected by us, or looks up to us (as the Israelis do), can do the same.

    We screwed up in the 50’s, planting the nation of Israel in the middle of a bunch of irate Muslims, and now we will pay the price. Bush chose to put a stick into a bees nest and rally everyone in the middle east to “look out for their brother” and “defeat the Crusaders”…and now it’s coming back to kick us in the butt.

    This is not a simple win/loose situation. Allies will be called upon and many nations will have to pick and choose who they support.

    The sad thing is: I seen this coming in 2003, almost broke up with my now-husband, and alienated many of my friends because I CALLED this mess. “Stabilize the middle” by invading Iraq…please how frigging stupid is our Administration…..
    Bring on Spring Training...

  4. #29
    Cyburbian AubieTurtle's avatar
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    Well, I thought Saudia Arabia would just keep quiet and stand on the sidelines but apparently they're criticizing Hezbollah, which I doubt is going to be taken well on the street. Regardless of if Hezbollah or Israel is at fault in the latest flare up, to have an Arab state come in on the side of Israel is going to mark them as pawns of the US. We must have promised something big to the House of Saud for them to take such a huge risk.
    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - H.L. Mencken

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally posted by LadyBuc
    Way to go, “W”!!!
    Surely Hezbollah (who you don't mention) also plays some teensy-tinsy part in this conflict as well? Or, I forget now, were Hezbollah, Iran, and Syria all nice and peaceable and Gandhi-like until Bush came along?

  6. #31
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
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    The sad thing is that Israel pulled out of Lebanon and Gaza and this is what they get- thousands of missles pointed at it. There is no hope for peace as long as the terrorists view Israeli efforts towards peace as a sign of weakness. We should be behind Israel 100% and now is not the time for any more placating.

  7. #32
    Cyburbian Hceux's avatar
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    In some ways, I feel like I should be embarrased for asking this, but I find myself not feeling embarrased for asking this: is there a coles notes version of what's going in the Middle East?

    Okay, I'll admit the truth: I've been avoiding reading or listening to news about anything negative going on in the world for several months now. I'm not sure if that's a good way to go about with my life. That's a different issue that's not to be addressed in this thread.

    I tried to read everyone's postings, but I find myself overwhelm of not having the background or the common knowledge to understand what you are all talking about or projecting or even understand why such happenings are occuring.

    Is there a linky out there that provides a Coles Notes version?

  8. #33
    Cyburbian AubieTurtle's avatar
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    It's a complex issue with roots that reach back a couple of millenium. I'd say the first thing to do is read up on the history of this stretch of real estate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel

    Almost all the arguments I hear from both sides are based on what happened just before whatever events are in question. Rarely do they try to look further back to try to see why the other side may feel that they're the injured party. And if they do look back, it is through a glass that only sees the "crimes" of the other side while conviently blocking out anything their own side did.
    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - H.L. Mencken

  9. #34
    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
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    "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" Jeremiah 22:16

  10. #35
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    I've not read any posts other than the first few posts, and on purpose.

    I think that Israel is taking advantage of an opportunity. Their generals are getting as much done, working overtime, until someone tells them to stop. A decade's worth of anger and racism packed into about a week of bombing.

    Clearly savage acts have been perpetrated by both sides, but the disproportion is painfully clear. It saddens me to note that Lebanon is once again knocked back to the stone age - undoing the better part of 50 years of development and rebuilding. How can we ever expect this country to police itself if it is continually beaten down, forced again and again to deal with the bare necessities of providing food, water, and a roof that won't get blown to pieces.

    Israel has also suffered. But I suppose I'm disappointed. I felt that Israel should have acted with restraint and dignity. But they haven't. Israel has shown itself to be no better than Hezbollah. (Who, incidentally, ARE NOT THE GOVERNMENT OF LEBANON. Hezbollah are active through the Middle East.)

    The irony here is that the government of Lebanon is actually very pro-Israel (or was).

    At the beginning of this conflict, I (and I suspect most of the world) solidly stood with Israel. But then the bombs began to linger in residential neighbourhoods. And bridges. And power stations. And the airport. And so on. This is a war of attrition against citizens.

    I suppose I'm not surprised - just disappointed.

  11. #36
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by abrowne
    I think that Israel is taking advantage of an opportunity. Their generals are getting as much done, working overtime, until someone tells them to stop. A decade's worth of anger and racism packed into about a week of bombing.

    Clearly savage acts have been perpetrated by both sides, but the disproportion is painfully clear. It saddens me to note that Lebanon is once again knocked back to the stone age - undoing the better part of 50 years of development and rebuilding. How can we ever expect this country to police itself if it is continually beaten down, forced again and again to deal with the bare necessities of providing food, water, and a roof that won't get blown to pieces.

    The irony here is that the government of Lebanon is actually very pro-Israel (or was).
    Israel is doing what it needs to do to defend itself against terrorists who will not rest until Israel is exterminated. You are right in that they are taking advantage of an opportunity, as they should. Should they stand by idly while Hezbollah amasses more deadlier weapons on its border? And how is the government of Lebanon pro-Israel when it is effectively run by Hezbollah, which controls the majority of seats in its congress?

  12. #37
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by LadyBuc
    We screwed up in the 50’s, planting the nation of Israel in the middle of a bunch of irate Muslims, and now we will pay the price.
    Actually, this is something we can blame on the French. (Hooray! Something that's not America's fault!) The Dreyfus Affair at the end of the 19th century was the tipping point of the modern Zionist movement, which started a few decades beforehand. In the early 20th century, a growing number of European Jews moved to Palestine and purchased land.

  13. #38
    Forums Administrator & Gallery Moderator NHPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by LadyBuc
    Way to go, “W”!!! (And yes, I partially blame him).
    Quote Originally posted by kjelsadek
    Moderator note:
    Please do not turn this thread into Bush bashing....stay on topic please.

    This thread will be closed if it turns into a partisan battle about US politics.
    "Growth is inevitable and desirable, but destruction of community character is not. The question is not whether your part of the world is going to change. The question is how." -- Edward T. McMahon, The Conservation Fund

  14. #39
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    There is an ominous feeling that both sides are only holding back for the moment to allow foreign nationals to evacuate; But once that diplomatic courtesy has run it course, there may be no compunction to avoid going ballistic.

    I confess a good deal of ignorance of the specifics. If you try to pin down who fired the first shot, you just get dizzy hearing about the endless cycle of retribution and vengeance that goes back for mellenia. All the claims over who lived where for how long; If you go far enough back in time, you'll see that continental drift has evicted everyone at some point - Nothing is permanent.

    My general attitude toward the whole issue of Israeli/Arab conflict is that it is a problem of mutual ethnocentrism and religious intolerance. I wonder whether it is better to attempt integration or maintain a strict ethnic division along national political boundaries. Integration would seem to have been a mistake in Iraq which was carved out by Europeans to include groups who had remained historically separate. But look at what Gandhi did to destigmatize the untouchables in India, or MLK did to promote social equality for African Americans. Anytime you carve up land and say this land is for you, and this land for them, hostility is bound to surface as some areas are more desirable than others. The US basically pushed Native Americans into the least hospitable, most desolate areas of the southwest (with the exception of a few tribes who were native to the area).

    It is all a problem of overidentification with a religious/ethnic identity which includes a definite attitude towards those who do not subscribe to the same identity. The only way for the Israelis and Palestinians to avoid the destruction of what they both cherish (Jerusalem, Palestine, Etc.), is to honor and celebrate the heritage of whom they have each labeled the other and thus the enemy.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  15. #40
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Looks like Israel and Hamas are back at it.

    http://news.yahoo.com/top-hamas-comm...143218204.html

    If this escalates, what will Egypt do??????
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

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