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Thread: 9/11 and your perspective of that day as it relates to your proximity to NYC

  1. #1
    Cyburbian Tide's avatar
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    9/11 and your perspective of that day as it relates to your proximity to NYC

    I really didn't know how to title this thread but I think it can be a very informative one. I had a pretty heated argument with my fiancee today about 9/11 since she was listening to Spencer Hughes and he was talking about people in NY and NJ and how they somehow feel like victims of 9/11. I lived less than 1 hour car ride from NYC that day. I was in work. I traveled to Perth Amboy that night to eat dinner with my dad who was working in Brooklyn that day and got out of the city just before they closed the bridges thinking it could be our last. I saw the plume of smoke, I heard the military jets and choppers overhead for two days. I knew people who had parents or siblings near or at WTC.

    Her argument is I was no more a victim than her, going to school in Cleveland, TN at the time. She thinks it's a disgrace to those directly involved, those who narrowly escaped, arrived to offer aid, or were relatives of the dead or injured. I disagree. Being a geography major I think proximity has entirely everything to do with 9/11. I believe I, as a resident of NJ was more affect and witnessed more in person than anyone in Nebraska or New Mexico could have over the TV. Yes there were endless hours of TV for those to view, and yes I'll give in to the fact that in that first hour any other plane could have hit any other buliding in the country. But I will not accept the argument that my experience is equal to anyone who lived vicariously through Fox News or CNN for 3 days.

    So have at it Cyburbia, am I out of line, does proximity in relation to the events of 9/11 matter? Are there different levels of awareness or affect that day had on different parts of the country?
    Last edited by Tide; 08 Sep 2006 at 3:51 PM.

  2. #2
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
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    One scenario where your argument might fall flat:
    If a person were in New Mexico and a loved one died that day (either in DC or NYC), then you are as much if not more a victim then you, Tide, despite being ~2,000 miles away.
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    The ends can justify the means.

  3. #3
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    Well, something like that affects everyone personally. That's why they remember what they are doing. "How much" it affects you is impossible to quantify. In general though I'd say yes, going out side and seeing the plume of smoke is probably a much different experience than seeing it on TV. Although both are tramatic.
    Reality does not conform to your ideology.
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  4. #4
    I would tend to say that proximity does have an impact on the emotional response to any catastrophe. It's the "There but for the grace of God" thing. I think this holds true also for people that were associated with a place but were not proximate. When I flew over ground zero in 2005, I had tears in my eyes for many minutes afterwords -- I'd been in the WTC and I grew up in their shadows. That I was 900 miles away on 9/11 seems, to me, immaterial because of my connection to the place.
    Je suis Charlie Hebdo. Je suis Bataclan. Je suis Bruxelles. Je suis Nice.

  5. #5
    Cyburbian
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    I think there is a direct correlation between distance and the impact of an event. I think you are in the right. While 9/11 impacted all of us, it certainly impacted people in NYC and it's outskirts more than it impacted me in Utah. However, if you personally know someone who was a victim or involved in any other way, it brings the events closer to home. My sister in law, who lived near enough to the WTC to get her morning coffee there, was lucky enough to be in upstate New York that day. If she would have been in Manhattan, it certainly would have had a much more profound impact on me.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
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    Sorry Im in the DC area and honestly the feeling here is that there IS a big poor is me feeling from folks in the NYC area. Yes it was horrible, yes many innocent people died but I thnk the stories of widows making off with millions, the bickering, the poltics over the site etc turn many minds. The feeling here is the risk is one you are aware of to live in the area, long before 9/11 folks here, and NYC, knew you were at a higher risk and chose to accept that.

    Here we remember, we mourn but life does go on and the best way to honor those that were died or lost loved ones is to keep going on and not let "them" change our way of life. But maybe its the strong military mindset.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

  7. #7
    Cyburbian jmello's avatar
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    Edit: People in Boston, CT, DC, VA, and other large cities experienced the same gut-wrenching horror that September morning. NY and NJ did not hold a monopoly on terror, though the events of the day may have hit home more in the Northeast than in other parts of the country.

    P.S. Where did NJ come from anyway? Because you could see it from Hoboken and Bayonne?
    Last edited by jmello; 08 Sep 2006 at 4:19 PM. Reason: Calmed down

  8. #8
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
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    Proximity would, in my opinion, have a considerable effect on your reaction to 9/11. Like all Americans, I watched the event unfold. We had a TV set up in a conference room and throughout much of the day everyone popped in to watch a little bit at a time (as much as we could stand)

    But the effect waned as the days passed. It happened far away to people we don't know personally. We are in an area unlikely to be targeted by terrorists. The city got a counter terrorist planner, but his tenure came and went without much attention. The federal buildings got higher security. The dams are a little more secure. Other than that, life went on pretty much the same as before 9/11. We in Montana don't think much about it.

    9/11 was a tremendous tragedy. The years have passed. I don't think much about it. I am only reminded of it when the media does a story. No one here that I know talks about it. No doubt there will be a memorial on the anniversary.
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

    ~ Otterpop ~

  9. #9
    Cyburbian The One's avatar
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    Hmmm....

    Both of my grandfathers would have said they were victims of the attack on Pearl Harbor.....both ended up in the war (volunteers)..... Both were snug as a bug in the midwest at the time of the attack.....

    The mental impact of the attack was amazing.....granted, much less than someone who was physically impacted.....but the impacts are still there....
    “The way of acquiescence leads to moral and spiritual suicide. The way of violence leads to bitterness in the survivors and brutality in the destroyers. But, the way of non-violence leads to redemption and the creation of the beloved community.”
    Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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  10. #10
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Proximity and Relationship both have had an impact, however they are slightly different. For those who lived there... you lost your perception security. For those who lost a loved one or a friend, you lost your loved one or friend. I am not going to get into what one is worse than the other or had more of an impact (although it should be obvious)

    For the impact based on proximity, you have a distance decay effect as you get away from NYC or DC, however that too has been altered by the extensive media coverage and the internet. The impact of loosing a friend or loved one has no distance decay and is the same regardless of the location of the survivor.

    In both cases, it was a horrible tragedy that should never be permitted to be repeated. Additionally, while the nation is torn politically, I think that we need to become united again in memorial of this.
    The most foolish thing one can do this fall is to vote for Clinton or Trump. Wake up, get out of the matrix, and send a message to the political establishment that you won't play their game.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Proximity plays a role.
    The Columbine High School shootings probably had a greater effect on me (being in class in a rival south Denver high school 10 minutes away that very day) then it would a similar aged high school student in Sheboygan, WI (or someplace futher away).
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  12. #12
    Cyburbian Plus
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    Quote Originally posted by Gedunker View post
    I would tend to say that proximity does have an impact on the emotional response to any catastrophe. It's the "There but for the grace of God" thing. I think this holds true also for people that were associated with a place but were not proximate. When I flew over ground zero in 2005, I had tears in my eyes for many minutes afterwords -- I'd been in the WTC and I grew up in their shadows. That I was 900 miles away on 9/11 seems, to me, immaterial because of my connection to the place.
    I agree with my fellow ex-pat Jersey Boy on this.
    I too grew up in the shadow of the WTC. Let me expand on my connections to the place:
    -- A friend (HS Cross-Country teammate) died that day.
    -- My Father's employer had an office on the 33 floor facing the Hudson River, where I had watched some of the festivities of the Bicentennial in NY harbor.
    -- A friend (HS classmate) had worked as an observation deck express elevator operator when he was in college (late 70's).
    -- Experienced the views from both the enclosed observation deck and roof top catwalk.
    -- Travelled into the city numerous times on PATH into the WTC. My sister made the commute for many years.
    -- Having been a Firefighter/EMT before 911and involved with my fair city's Fire Dept I felt a some bond (brotherhood) with FDNY.

  13. #13
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Tide View post
    I believe I, as a resident of NJ was more affect and witnessed more in person than anyone in Nebraska or New Mexico could have over the TV.
    Hey! as someone who lives in New Mexico.....I totally agree. I grew up in Philadelphia, spent a good deal of time in New York (where I still have many friends, none of whom died, but plenty of whom trudged across the Brooklyn bridge in the fear and chaos) and my wife lived there for 7 years before we got married and moved west.

    I think the degree to which the event impacted me as "real" (and not a television drama - something I found hard to do considering the outrageousness of the act and my physical distance) was directly linked to my ability to imagine myself in that context. I was better able to do this than some, perhaps, because I had actually been to the Trade Center Towers and recognized so many areas where images of people fleeing advancing clouds of dust reached my TV. And yet, the ability to keep the visceral aspect of what happened fresh in my mind was greatly hampered. It was a real mind $#&&! to try to get my brain to accept that this stuff was for real. With the distance, I was not forced, as those of you closer were, to go through all the stages of grief that I believe the metro region is still experiencing. In fact, I might suggest that many in this country got stuck in the "anger" fase.

    The New York Times actually had an article recently (though I could not find it on the website) which supported your point - that much of country has moved much further along in recovery than those in NYC. This seems like an obvious correlation to me. The physical scars of the event are still evident (not only at the site, but in the endless political wrangling over what will take its place, the lingering health problems, the recent report that body parts are STILL being uncovered at the site, and the palpable anxiety) and people spend their days around deeply affected souls - jittery people, people in mourning, people with PTSD, etc. Not to mention the departed souls.

    In many ways, I think this is a similar phenomenon to Katrina. Those people still living in New Orleans are faced with endless miles of rubble, stench, increased crime, etc. while the rest of us have turned off the TV and returned to our daily routine. The reminder for them is constant. There was a report released a few months ago that spoke of the lingering mental health problems there as a result of reliving the trauma every time they open their front door.

    So, I think geography is a major factor, not just in where you were at the time, but the degree to which you know the place as somewhere you lived or visited. This is also related to geography, but in a different sense - it requires that at some point you actually were physically there. This is not to say that it had no impact on others, of course, but I think those in the metro region have a unique way of relating to the event that the rest of us lack, and the detrimental impact of that should not be underrated.
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  14. #14
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
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    Off-topic:
    Quote Originally posted by jordanb View post
    Although both are tramatic.
    Trauma + Dramatic = Tramatic?

    Interesting.

    It doesn't show up in the eggcorn database. I ought to submit it.

  15. #15
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    What can I say? I'm a virritable wordsmith.
    Reality does not conform to your ideology.
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  16. #16
    Cyburbian Iron Ring's avatar
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    I lived in Hackensack, NJ at the time and thankfully I was not in Manhattan that day. It is funny that I have aften told people the exact opposite, that many people in relatively close proximety were less traumatized (myself anyway) than those thousands of miles away. Obviously, I am not talking about those who lost friends or family or those who witnessed it first hand. In my case I found out literally seconds after the first plane hit from a co-worker's husband who witnessed the 1st plane hit. After that I was probably more in the dark than someone across the country. We had no TV in our office, the phone system and internet soon went down due excessive traffic, many radio stations went off the air. I spent the bulk of that morning getting bits and pieces from radio reports and trying to get through to my family on the phone. I didn't particularly want to rush home (alone), getting a hold of family was my priority. I didn't see footage until a few hours later, after I already knew what had happened. I do have the image from that afternoon of the enormous plume of smoke replacing the spot on the skyline where the towers used to be. I did cringe everytime an F-15 or a F-16 passed overhead. However, to be honest the most emotional moment for me was the first time I went into the city a few days later and saw the thousands of "missing persons" posters in the subway stations and later on when I heard of the few names I knew of through work of people that didn't make it.

    On the other hand, I know of many people all over the world who sat in front of TV's through the whole thing and were in absolute states of panic. I don't think anyone should diminish emotional impact watching these events on cable news might've had on someone. CNN/FoxNews sell drama as much (or more) than news, they know how to push peoples buttons.

    In the end, I think it has more to do with the individual person, their particular circumstances, who they knew, what they saw, etc... that affects their personal impact of 9/11. For me I remember that day as one of confusion and disbelief, I know of many much further away that remember a feeling of panic and helplessness.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Of course proximity makes a difference! It's close to home. As others have said, perhaps the effect is greater on those at greater distance who had personal ties to the event, but otherwise...

    I stood in my yard and watched Challenger blow up. It hit hard, very fast, seeing it happen, and not something I will ever forget.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian
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    I was in NYC. . .

    As Iron Ring said, TV coverage and access to media was different for those in NYC than for other places in the country. I never saw footage of the 'jumpers' and on 9/11 I was far too wrapped up in what was actually happening to NYC to be worrying about more attacks occuring.

    I had been in NYC for only 4 months on 9/11, and I saw the second plane hit from Brooklyn on my way to work. Since I worked as a nanny, and since I knew the kids' dad worked downtown, but not where, so I got on the subway and went into Manhattan. The first tower collapsed while I was on the train, and the subway shut down just after I arrived on the upper west side.

    There are so many things about that day I won't forget. The look on the doorman's face telling me that the tower collapsed, spending the day playing with the kids as my boss tried to hold it together, not knowing whether her husband was OK for several hours. The apartment became a gathering place for her relatives around the city. I distracted myself by cooking a lot of food no one had any appetite for.

    Amazingly, the subway was running again by the end of the day, and I went back to Brooklyn and straight to a friend's house. There, after hearing each others' stories, including that of a shaken 22 year-old who spent hours in her downtown office building before walking across the brooklyn bridge with a scarf over her face. She moved back to california. We ended up at a neighborhood bar, which was packed.

    One of the things that those in other places can't understand is the overlapping of ordinary life and constant reminders of the tragedy. The smell of burning plastic that drifted over Brooklyn, the achingly beautiful fall days, the way large groups of people would be strangely quiet. Almost anything could make me cry in those days. The posters looking for loved ones were everywhere, as were impromtu candle-lit shrines. Physical reminders, chief among them the smoke that rose from the site for months, were everywhere as we went about our daily lives.

    I didn't even own a TV at the time, so I don't have a good sense of what TV-based experiences of the event were like. Certainly some people have emotional responses to things on TV that are very strong. But again, it is different to imagine it than to live through it. The thing is that life goes on, and sometimes that in itself is kind of upsetting. Up against the grief of families that lost someone, I felt my compassion was inadequate, that I wasn't feeling enough.

    So it isn't really about how scared or angry one was because of 9/11, but that people in the area lived through the wierdness of it all, day to day. I find it ridiculous that people try to prove who was more upset, or compete about who has a right to say they lived through it. Yes, people close by had a different experience, but just what that experience was varies from person to person, and some people far away were probably more traumatized than some people in the city. If humans didn't have the ability to emotionally recover after trauma and move on, we wouldn't have gotten this far as a species.

  19. #19
    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
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    I was living in Portland, Oregon. I was married to an arab muslim at the time. My mother was furiously knocking on our bedroom door around 6am and telling us to turn on the news and when we asked which channel she shouted any of them. We got up to see footage of the first tower after it was hit and while we were watching and trying to digest what was happening we saw the second plane hit. At that point my mother came in and pointed at my husband that his people were responsible for this.

    We got up and got ready for work and caught the train and took along our little LCD tv and we continued to watch the coverage on our commute into downtown. I think that since we were so far removed from the tragedy that it did not impact us like it would have had we lived in close proximity to NYC. The impact we felt for months afterwards were more directly related to racial profiling and racism. My then husband was stopped by the police as he drove from home to the hospital after coming home for lunch. They questioned him for 30 minutes and had closed the two lane road and 4 cruisers responded. He was spit on a number of times while walking downtown to work in the poor clinic.

    All told, it was a horrific event that has been burned into the psyche of every person that was old enough to comprehend the significance of the events. We have long taken for granted that we have have been the biggest, safest, securist place in the world and 9/11 demonstrated that we were in fact much more vulnerable.
    "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" Jeremiah 22:16

  20. #20
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    As someone who lives in the midle of the largest arabic neighborhood outside of the middle-east. I can tell you things were incredibly quiet that day. Many arab-americans were sad to see that this had happened because they knew that people will never look at them again the same way. Nearly everyone here came here to get away from the terroisim in the middle-east and to raise their family in safety. Now that safety net was gone.

    As someone who also worked in the heart of a large downtown, I could tell you that the lack of information that morning and the fear of the unkown sent thousands of folks out of their offices. Word got out that General Motors might be a target and then panic struck. When the parking garage ques and the busses leaving downtown reached capacity, people were literally running away from the Central Business District and into the surrounding neighborhoods.

    I was able to get out and back to my neighborhood. I went to church and got grandma out of her senior meeting and took her back to her home. We spent that afternoon watching the rest of the world trade center fall down, and knew that life will never be the same again. The United States was attacked on its own soil. This had not happened since when? The war of 1812? The Spanish-American War?

    We would later hear of the feds coming through homes in the neighborhood, rounding up people, but not being able to prosecute due to lack of evidience.

    In short, we were all affected. Some of us more than others, but geography is onle on aspect of the impact.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  21. #21
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner View post
    The United States was attacked on its own soil. This had not happened since when? The war of 1812? The Spanish-American War?
    Um World War II.

    And no batters of the Spanish American war were faught on US soil.

    It was a very confusing and panic-filled time in Downtown Chicago as well. The Sears Tower was pretty much the first building after the WTC to be evacuated and shortly thereafter the entire loop was ordered to evacuate. There were people walking home as in NYC because the transit system was so crouded.
    Reality does not conform to your ideology.
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  22. #22
    As others have said, proximity has a lot to do with your reaction. It makes sense that those who lived/worked in the NY-NJ area would feel more sensitive to it than someone on the West Coast. But there will always be some who will be more dramatic about the circumstances than others.

    The whole day still has a dream-like quality for me. I recall hearing the reports on the radio at my desk, sitting unbelieving at my desk, unable to comprehend the scope of it. The first reports did mention a plane, but in the context of a small prop buzzing the towers - not jumbo jets. Because information was so sketchy that first hour or so I don't think I really 'got it'. There were local municipal elections here on that day, and the big debate was whether the polls should be closed and rescheduled. It wasn't until after noon that the office towers downtown were beginning to empty, and schools were closing. My husband left his office that day and spent more than an hour trying to get a train out of downtown. I was working in Harvard Square and for whatever reason our office remained open and it was business as usual. I didn't leave for home until 5:30 that afternoon, but I couldn't help notice that the streets were eerily silent, distress and worry etched plain on everyone's face. It wasn't til I got home that evening and watched the footage of the towers actually disintegrating that it began to work its way through the fog. The next morning we learned that a colleague had a missing family member at WTC - she had been underground in the subway station. Later we discovered that she had been plucked from the rubble almost immediately, but she was so badly burned and injured that it was another 48 hours before they could determine who she was and notify her family. A past co-worker had just been in the lobby of one of the towers getting a coffee before heading to his office on West Street. He'd missed the inferno by about 30 minutes. A little too close for my comfort.

    It was also eerie not hearing air traffic for the next week or so. I live within sight distance of Logan and I never thought the sound of aircraft idling on the tarmac or the smell of burning tire rubber would be so comforting. When air traffic did resume I got the shivers watching planes take off over the city and move across the skyline. I would stop and close my eyes, trying to grasp the enormity of it over and over.

  23. #23
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jordanb View post
    Um World War II.
    Hmmm you're correct. Was Hawaii a State at that time? I should have re-phrased my answer!

    My sis was working iin the Sears tower, I can vouch for Jordon, it was probably more of a madhouse in Chicago than Detroit because their CBD is probably 10 times the size of Detroit's.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  24. #24
    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner View post
    Hmmm you're correct. Was Hawaii a State at that time? I should have re-phrased my answer!

    My sis was working iin the Sears tower, I can vouch for Jordon, it was probably more of a madhouse in Chicago than Detroit because their CBD is probably 10 times the size of Detroit's.
    No. Hawaii was a territory at the time anenxed as a territory in 1898. It did not achieve statehood until 1959.
    "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" Jeremiah 22:16

  25. #25
    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner View post
    Hmmm you're correct. Was Hawaii a State at that time? I should have re-phrased my answer!
    American shipping was sunk by German U-boats in our territorial waters during WWII. The Japanese used hot air balloons to drop bombs on the west coast, with the hopes of starting huge wildfires. IIRC, a person in Michigan was the only person killed by one of these bombs.

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