Urban planning community

+ Reply to thread
Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: What if the enemies of the US united and used the United Nations as the weapon?

  1. #1
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Someplace between yesterday and tomorrow.
    Posts
    12,268

    What if the enemies of the US united and used the United Nations as the weapon?

    There have been some reports that Cubin President Fidel Castro hosted Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for a two day “lunch”. Three presidents who hate the US all getting together right before the UN meetings can not be a good thing. As it is, Venezuela is also looking at going Nuclear to provide energy, just as Iran is. But is that such a good idea knowing how easy it would be to build nuclear weapons?

    What do you think would happen if they teamed up against the US?

    As a follow up, what are your thoughts on the direction of the United Nations? It seems that for the past 20 years the United States and the UN have been going different directions in terms of policy. There was also suggestions that the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Kofi Annan was at the meeting with Castro, Chavez, and Ahmadinejad.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  2. #2
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
    Registered
    May 2003
    Location
    Staff meeting
    Posts
    8,183
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    What do you think would happen if they teamed up against the US?
    If it came to military engagement, we would crush them, even if they had nuclear weapons.
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    Let's not be didactic in this profession, because that is a path to disillusion and irrelevancy.

    Six seasons and a movie!

  3. #3
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
    Registered
    Jun 2003
    Location
    at the neighboring pub
    Posts
    5,278
    Quote Originally posted by mendelman View post
    If it came to military engagement, we would crush them, even if they had nuclear weapons.
    I have to agree with you there. As far as those three leaders being taken seriously at the UN, two of the three have managed to make asses of themselves in the first two days. Chavez probably lost all credibility with his incredibly idiotic statement.

    The US-UN relationship has long been a "love-hate". Much of the problem stems from poor leadership on both sides at one point or another. Annan is absolutely worthless as a SG--I can't think of one positive contribution he has made since taking over as head. I big cause of the rift between the US & UN is a seeming total lack of respect from the US toward the UN and the frequent brushing off of UN opinions. Defining phrases in the Geneva Conventions is the job of an international body since it is an international treaty--I think this is what is really damaging the relationship with the UN at present. The relationship between the US & UN really began to deteriorate post-cold war. At this point there is really no country the UN can definitively point to and say "there lies the enemy". Also, most of the member nations are smaller countries, so they may harbor resentment toward the big brother--especially when we're giving unwelcome brotherly advice and getting onto little brothers. This is further exacerbated by our leaders coming across as a bit brash and not choosing their words carefully.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  4. #4
    Cyburbian Brocktoon's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Promoting synergies...
    Posts
    3,558
    Someone is wearing their tin foil hat!

    The UN is chartered to prevent war its the first part of the UN charters preamble, " ...to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind..." and much of our problems came in the 90's when the US saw many isolation's in Congress that did not want to pay dues to the UN. After 9/11, one of the first actions the US took with the UN was to pay all of its back dues. The Bush administration has made little secret of its dislike for the body and often state if they do not side with us they risk becoming "irrelevant." The UN is no more irrelevant than it was 3 years or after it took no action when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. Part of the problem is its a deliberative body with 190+ political parties making it inefficient, slow and overly political...more so than other type bodies.

    The Us has had opposition before...you might remember a little faction called the Communist Bloc that opposed the US at every turn and the Us survived. The Security Council is where the real business of the UN is conducted and the US has a veto something, Iran, Venezuela and Cuba do not have. There group is much smaller and does not have the political clout that the US has, so there is little worry that this group could create anything more than a few headaches for the US at the UN.

    The meeting in Cuba included 15 countries not just the 3 you mentioned for the NAM meeting. NAM has been irrelevant since the Cold War and it could be argued they were never relevant. The organization has 100 members but only 15 attended the meeting. In fact Ahmadinejad was in Senegal before he was in Cuba.

    Although the 3 counties you mentioned have no love for the US the have little in common with each other and have given the US current standing in the world we can expect more small democratic countries using the US as a foil in their politicians populist campaigns.
    "If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less" General Eric Shinseki

  5. #5
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
    Registered
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Down by Dun Ringill
    Posts
    5,895
    Blog entries
    6
    It is hard to believe some nations object to our "my way or the highway" attitude when it comes to international affairs.

    I think Chavez is way-out-there, but I do admire his willingness to speak out against the U.S, even though I don't agree with him. Well, okay, I also think Bush does leave a sulphur smell wherever he goes.
    Last edited by otterpop; 21 Sep 2006 at 10:51 AM.
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

    ~ Otterpop ~

  6. #6
    Good point Brocktoon. Venezuela has had a long history of being pro US, with the exception of the current nut case. Most Venezualens do not share thier El Presidentaes hatered of the US. I think the people of Venezuela are wonderful... I married one. More Miss Universes than any other country.

  7. #7
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
    Registered
    May 2005
    Location
    The Fox Valley
    Posts
    4,663
    Blog entries
    1
    Haha...what a joke. Unless we're talking major European and Asian nations, these countries (Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, etc.) would likely be gone in just a few minutes if need be. Additionally, we could always sabotage/dismantle the UN...it's in OUR country anyway. But that probably wouldn't be necessary as they hold pretty much no power.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  8. #8
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Someplace between yesterday and tomorrow.
    Posts
    12,268
    Quote Originally posted by otterpop View post
    I think Chavez is way-out-there, but I do admire his willingness to speak out against the U.S, even though I don't agree with him. Well, okay, I also think Bush does leave a sulphur smell whereever he goes.

    I too have to complement the guy on his speaking style and charisma. Even though I don’t agree with 80% of anything the guy says, I think that he has a phenomenal ability to call others to action.

    He was right when he said that the “El Diablo” was on stage yesterday and that the sulfur smell remained. Iran has smelled like that for quite a while and Ahmadinejad might not want to walk to close to a church or he might erupt in flames.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  9. #9
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
    Registered
    Jun 2003
    Location
    at the neighboring pub
    Posts
    5,278
    Quote Originally posted by otterpop View post
    It is hard to believe some nations object to our "my way or the highway" attitude when it comes to international affairs.

    I think Chavez is way-out-there, but I do admire his willingness to speak out against the U.S, even though I don't agree with him. Well, okay, I also think Bush does leave a sulphur smell whereever he goes.
    I have to agree with you there, including Chavez speaking out against the US. However, as a general rule its not a good idea to run around calling world leaders "the devil" and then expect them to take you seriously (although that is less hokey than "evil-doers" ).

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  10. #10

    Registered
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Solano County, California
    Posts
    6,468
    I think Chavez is quite nutty, of course. A classic example of Caudillo, the Strongman. But..given the past mismanagement and corruption of the upper caste (and it is a hereditary caste system) who were oh so rational and followed all the precepts of conservative and neoliberal economic "thought" maybe kookiness is appealing right now to the population of Venezuela?

    As for the main topic-uniting against us-this is already happening. China and Europe and even Latin America are steadily developing commercial and trade contracts, connections that don't involve and even exclude us. Why do they need us? What do we produce that the world wants anymore? I guess weapons, but "defense" industries only can support so much of an economy.

    There doesn't need to be a military attack. If the Bank of China stops buying U.S. Bonds, economic (and social) collapse will happen fairly quickly. Is this likely to happen soon? No-they still need our markets.

    It's own corporate class that has basically sold us down the river as they have basically destroyed any industrial base in the pursuit of cheap labor, quarterly profits, and no environmental regulations. But boy, those specials at Wal Mart and Target are sure good, no?

  11. #11
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
    Registered
    May 2004
    Location
    Snarkville
    Posts
    6,587
    Chavez and Ahmadinejad may be a little nutty. But then again- President Bush is probably just as nutty and perhaps more dangerous.

    Luckily Bush wont be around for long. And we have nothing to fear from Venezuela. Iran themselves would not use a weapon against us or Israel. There is a danger that any nuclear weapons could make their way from Iran to terrorists but even then I think Iran knows that if we could link them to providing terrorists with a nuclear weapon we would destroy that entire country.

    Most of the major powers would still back the US over any of the rogue states like Iran and North Korea so it would be suicide for those states to do anything to threaten us. Venezuela presents no danger to us whatsoever. Regardless of what Chavez says that country is still fairly friendly to the US.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
    Registered
    May 2005
    Location
    New Town
    Posts
    3,826
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    As it is, Venezuela is also looking at going Nuclear to provide energy, just as Iran is. But is that such a good idea knowing how easy it would be to build nuclear weapons?
    Building a nuclear weapon, even with the technology to use it for energy production, is still extremely difficult. Refining the fuel to the level needed for warheads takes a LOT of development. The US, even with its interests in promoting Iran as immenently dangerous, puts weapons development potential at 10 years from now - and they've been working on it for a long time already. I think the major concern is using the energy-production angle as a cover for weapons development, but this can be monitored, especially if there is an international partner involved that can, say, ensure the spent fuel is removed from the country.

    Personally, I do not have many concerns about these folks teaming up and gaining much credibility from the UN. Ahmadinijad is a good speaker in some limited contexts and can sway opinion, but in this recent round of UN meetings, the more he talks, the more unreasonable he seems to sounds.

    This is from today's NYTimes:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/21/wo...rtner=homepage

    Never raising his voice and thanking each questioner with a tone that oozed polite hostility, he spent 40 minutes questioning the evidence that the Holocaust ever happened — “I think we should allow more impartial studies to be done on this,” he said after hearing an account of an 81-year-old member, the insurance mogul Maurice R. Greenberg, who saw the Dachau concentration camp as Germany fell — and he refused to even consider Washington’s proposal for Russia to provide Iran with nuclear reactor fuel, and take it back once it is used. (Without the capacity to enrich fuel on its own soil Iran would be unable to make fuel suitable for a nuclear weapon.)
    I think the real mess the US is in comes from having positioned ourselves in a hostile manner to much of the world - we have used too much muscle and not enough investment and diplomacy. The whole "either you're with us or against us" mentality forces a dichotomy where complex alliances become difficult and its pissing off more and more countries. Its sort of like someone poking you in the sternum with their forefinger while asking "dictatorships are wrong, aren't they, huh? huh? what, do you LIKE dictatoriships? is THAT what you are saying?" Boxing people in a corner is rarely a good way tyo win their hearts and minds.

    When leaders like Chavez and Ahmadinijad (and to a lesser extent Castro these days) speak critically of our behavior, there is the danger that others will see the truth in the criticisms and mistakenly equate this with being in agreement with the rest of these countries' agendas.

    I think we have a big challenge of convincing much of the world of our moral high ground. Perhaps if we were more assertive about improving the economic lives of other countries (along with things like education - build schools!) our image would not be so tarnished. As it is, most of what the world sees are our tanks and planes and bombs.

    I keep thinking how it is that Japan became such a good ally and friend after WWII. Afterall, we perpetrated one of the most horrific of military actions in the history of the world against them. And with their nationalistic fervor of the 40's, they REALLY hated us. But in a short span of time, they have come to love us. Why? Because we helped rebuild their economy, opened markets to them, invested in infrastructure and schools. Its not because we rolled into town with tanks and forced multi-party democracy down their throats. I think one of our greatest failures of late has been to suggest that instilling democracy alone will improve peoples' lives. This is not true. People respond more, I think, to ecnomics and concrete improvements in their quality of life. If this improvement comes directly from US investments, we will come out looking very good and efforts to sideline us at the UN will largely fall flat.
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  13. #13
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Someplace between yesterday and tomorrow.
    Posts
    12,268
    Quote Originally posted by wahday View post
    I keep thinking how it is that Japan became such a good ally and friend after WWII. Afterall, we perpetrated one of the most horrific of military actions in the history of the world against them. And with their nationalistic fervor of the 40's, they REALLY hated us. But in a short span of time, they have come to love us. Why? Because we helped rebuild their economy, opened markets to them, invested in infrastructure and schools. Its not because we rolled into town with tanks and forced multi-party democracy down their throats. I think one of our greatest failures of late has been to suggest that instilling democracy alone will improve peoples' lives. This is not true. People respond more, I think, to ecnomics and concrete improvements in their quality of life. If this improvement comes directly from US investments, we will come out looking very good and efforts to sideline us at the UN will largely fall flat.
    I think that is a very interesting point. However some people would say that the US destroyed Japan’s way of life. Being that the US was not very active in the War before Perl Harbor, why did Japan Attack us? I agree with you though, it is an interesting case and it is a shame that the US had to bomb them.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  14. #14

    Registered
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Solano County, California
    Posts
    6,468
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    I think that is a very interesting point. However some people would say that the US destroyed Japan’s way of life. Being that the US was not very active in the War before Perl Harbor, why did Japan Attack us? I agree with you though, it is an interesting case and it is a shame that the US had to bomb them.
    It may be heresy to attack one of the heros of the Democratic Party, but if you read some of the more critical analyses of FDR's policies and actions prior to the war, the United States (and Britain) in fact did engage in fairly serious economic warfare against the Japanese state-including efforts to deny Japan access to oil supplies.

    Am I justifying Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor? No way. I'm just pointing out that national leadership is rarely "insane" or acts in completely irrational manners (Hitler......that's another story, sadly. He did indeed engage in many irrational and insane actions and policies, of course.)

  15. #15
    Cyburbian The One's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Where Valley Fever Lives
    Posts
    7,130

    Ah....

    Don't forget Bolivia....they do have the "high" ground and could be the most difficult to defeat....we need to start pumping billions into the Chilean economy, just like we give Israel, to ensure a strong foothold in South America.....

    I'm just waiting for a US Navy ship to get "hit" or "bombed" in a Valenzuela/N. Korea/Iran/Cuban harbour/waters......
    Skilled Adoxographer

  16. #16
    Cyburbian
    Registered
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Santiago, Chile
    Posts
    4,767
    Quote Originally posted by The One View post
    I'm just waiting for a US Navy ship to get "hit" or "bombed" in a Valenzuela/N. Korea/Iran/Cuban harbour/waters......
    1899 USS Maine in La Habana... that started the American - Spanish war if I'm not mistaken... funny thing is that apparently it wasn't a spanish terrist attack like they sold it out, but rather that the gunpowder was kept too close to the furnace (do'h!)
    Quote Originally posted by The One View post
    Don't forget Bolivia....they do have the "high" ground and could be the most difficult to defeat....we need to start pumping billions into the Chilean economy, just like we give Israel, to ensure a strong foothold in South America
    Well I wouldn't complain... but please... let us take care of our stupid "socialist*" government ourselves... I just hope that some decent politician shows up in the next years... not the same corruptella from both sides... Also... trust in Chile... Argentina is an historical backstabbing nation...

    *"socialist" as in european like democratic socialist... but that haven't managed to screw up the neoliberal system all that much... yet.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Someplace between yesterday and tomorrow.
    Posts
    12,268

    I guess the dem's are not that bad!

    Wow... now I am shocked. A few of Bush’s harshest critics are telling Chavez not to bash the President! CNN Link!

    I may not agree with there political agenda, but it is nice to see them look past party lines and do what’s right!
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  18. #18
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
    Registered
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Middle of a Dusty Street
    Posts
    6,370
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Wow... now I am shocked. A few of Bush’s harshest critics are telling Chavez not to bash the President! CNN Link!

    I may not agree with there political agenda, but it is nice to see them look past party lines and do what’s right!
    It's kind of like being brothers... You fight all the time, but if anyone outside the family takes a swing, you take on all of us.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C'mon and get me you twist of fate
    I'm standing right here Mr. Destiny
    If you want to talk well then I'll relate
    If you don't so what cause you don't scare me

  19. #19
    Cyburbian The One's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Where Valley Fever Lives
    Posts
    7,130

    Hmmm....

    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Wow... now I am shocked. A few of Bush’s harshest critics are telling Chavez not to bash the President! CNN Link!

    I may not agree with there political agenda, but it is nice to see them look past party lines and do what’s right!
    Didn't you see ex Presidente Clinton defending the "hell" out of Bush against the Chavez puke....??? He may be a dolt, but dangit....he's an AMERICAN PRESIDENT and even liberals will back him up on that point
    Skilled Adoxographer

  20. #20
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
    Registered
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Down by Dun Ringill
    Posts
    5,895
    Blog entries
    6
    Quote Originally posted by BKM View post
    I think Chavez is quite nutty, of course.
    I think the world needs a few nutty leaders mixed in with the normal (dull) ones.

    It is like that crazy uncle we all seem to have in our families. Sure he is an embarassment, but he sure makes the family get-togethers interesting. No one is telling stories about Uncle Jim, the investment banker, but everyone has a dozen great Uncle Roy stories.
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

    ~ Otterpop ~

  21. #21
    Cyburbian LadyBuc's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    198
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    There have been some reports that Cubin President Fidel Castro hosted Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for a two day “lunch”. Three presidents who hate the US all getting together right before the UN meetings can not be a good thing. As it is, Venezuela is also looking at going Nuclear to provide energy, just as Iran is. But is that such a good idea knowing how easy it would be to build nuclear weapons?

    What do you think would happen if they teamed up against the US?

    As a follow up, what are your thoughts on the direction of the United Nations? It seems that for the past 20 years the United States and the UN have been going different directions in terms of policy. There was also suggestions that the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Kofi Annan was at the meeting with Castro, Chavez, and Ahmadinejad.
    What the f**k are you smoking???
    We meet with anybody we choose. They are not allowed to, WHY? Because they don't "like us"? Is this Kindergarten?
    We are the only people that can choose other nations' friends? And if we don't like the nation, they can't have friends?
    Who the he** made us (quote) "Owner of the world"? (end quote) (That was good, you have to give me that...)

    Additionally, Chavez may think he accomplished something (personally I believe he is a dumba**), but actually, he gave "the devil" a boost. His ratings are up, people are coming to his defense when just yesterday they were ready to hang him out ot dry...etc. That is unfortunate as I smell the sulphur, too...
    Last edited by LadyBuc; 22 Sep 2006 at 9:44 PM.
    Bring on Spring Training...

  22. #22
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
    Registered
    May 2003
    Location
    City of Low Low Wages!
    Posts
    3,236
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    What do you think would happen if they teamed up against the US?
    V E T O

    The UN was structured to ensure that the five victors of WWII had all the power. Those are the five countries make up the permanent section of the security council.

    If the UN is drifting away from the US it is only because two of our historically closest allies, Bush's "good friend" Mr Putin, and our most favored trading partner are drifting away from us. Maybe we should ask why that is happening.
    Reality does not conform to your ideology.
    http://neighborhoods.chicago.il.us Photographs of Life in the Neighborhoods of Chicago
    http://hafd.org/~jordanb/ Pretentious Weblog.

  23. #23
    Cyburbian
    Registered
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Santiago, Chile
    Posts
    4,767
    Quote Originally posted by jordanb View post
    V E T O

    The UN was structured to ensure that the five victors of WWII had all the power. Those are the five countries make up the permanent section of the security council.

    If the UN is drifting away from the US it is only because two of our historically closest allies, Bush's "good friend" Mr Putin, and our most favored trading partner are drifting away from us. Maybe we should ask why that is happening.
    Not only veto, but also... would the US really change it's course of action by any UN resolution against it? The Iraq war serves as example... the US went ahead anyways... and well Israel has been doing whatever they want, no matter how many UN resolutions are passed to bring peace to the middle east... so it's ridiculous....

  24. #24

    Registered
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Solano County, California
    Posts
    6,468
    Quote Originally posted by jordanb View post
    Bush's "good friend" Mr Putin, and our most favored trading partner are drifting away from us. Maybe we should ask why that is happening.

    It's obvious, of course; Because they hate our Freedom.

    We need to BOYCOTT all chinese goods. Oops. Can't do that because our Republican friends in the CEO offices have offloaded the entire economy.

+ Reply to thread

More at Cyburbia

  1. United States of Apathy?
    Friday Afternoon Club
    Replies: 11
    Last post: 01 Apr 2008, 1:37 PM
  2. Replies: 41
    Last post: 08 May 2006, 11:14 AM
  3. Replies: 40
    Last post: 18 Oct 2005, 3:37 AM
  4. Victory for the United States
    Friday Afternoon Club
    Replies: 2
    Last post: 26 Feb 2005, 3:15 PM
  5. Replies: 5
    Last post: 18 Jan 2005, 5:36 PM