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Thread: Continuing Discussion of 'The Republic' (was: Sorry NH)

  1. #1
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Continuing Discussion of 'The Republic' (was: Sorry NH)

    I put some time and effort into a long post, and never made any personal attacks at all. By closing that thread, you basically a) gave Jeff no opportunity to formulate a response with factual basis; and b) took away the satisfaction I may have gotten if he could not do so...

    So, I'm crying "foul" in the matter.

    As a moderator, you can delete this thread, ban me, or do whatever you think is needed. I hope you do not, however, since I believe I'm making a good case for allowing some latitude. Others may have been crossing the "attacking the poster" line, but I did not, nor will I.

    So Jeff, assuming NH allows this to stay, what's your reply?

    Moderator note:
    (nerudite) Mastiff is referring to his previous post, which can be accessed here. As stated at the bottom of the last thread. It's okay to continue the discussion in a new thread IF everyone will not resort to name calling and can keep to a civilized discussion.
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  2. #2
    Forums Administrator & Gallery Moderator NHPlanner's avatar
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    Moderator note:
    I'm glad you restarted the discussion....that was what I had hoped for. The other thread was closed by the mods for beginning to turn into a mess of name calling and sniping. I'm all for the discussion continuing....without the name calling.
    "Growth is inevitable and desirable, but destruction of community character is not. The question is not whether your part of the world is going to change. The question is how." -- Edward T. McMahon, The Conservation Fund

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Tom R's avatar
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    republik

    OK, I'll drop the name calling/censorship bit. What we should be discussing is what is likely to happen in the forseeable future and what can be done about it. I have always thought that going into Iraq was a BIG mistake, but now we're there. What to do?
    1. Pull the plug? A lot of innocent people are going to suffer and die as a result and Iraq (or a lot of it) may well become another Islamic nation ala Iran.
    2.Stay the course? A lot of innocent people are going to suffer and die as a result and Iraq (or a lot of it) may well become another Islamic nation ala Iran.

    In either case the middle east will become more unstable with other regiemes such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan becomming more ripe for a violent overthrow and possible Islamists take over.

    I don't envy the next American administration at all. It will inherit W's dirty little war and a very nasty political and economic situation, not to mention future terrorist attacks.
    What to do, what to do?
    Last edited by Tom R; 26 Oct 2006 at 9:45 AM. Reason: typo

  4. #4
    Quote Originally posted by Tom R View post
    OK, I'll drop the name calling/censorship bit. What we should be discussing is what is likely to happen in the forseeable future and what can be done about it. I have always thought that going into Iraq was a BIG mistake, but now we're there. What to do?
    You should have learned the lesson the first time around, but what you think doesn't matter a shred to what the republic decides to do. Instead of asking what the republic should do about Iraq, you should be asking what you can do about the republic.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally posted by jaws View post
    You should have learned the lesson the first time around, but what you think doesn't matter a shred to what the republic decides to do. Instead of asking what the republic should do about Iraq, you should be asking what you can do about the republic.
    Rethink the idea of the centralized Nation State. Why should we in California be at war because of a few fundamentalists in the south and the midwest eagerly looking forward to Armageddon? Revisit the idea of a confederation with a weak centralized state. Switzerland doesn't invade other countries or have military bases in what, 60 countries. Severely downsize the military. It should be a defense force

    Of course, that will devastate the American economy, which is based on "All War, All the time" But-the reality is we are approaching some kind of economic meltdown anyway, and we will need these folks to feed ourselves once the cheap imports are gone and gasoline is $12/gallon.

    I'm just ranting, here. My concern, while not as extreme as jaws', is that this is not just a George W. Bush issue. 90% of the mainstream Democrats are little better. "More war, all the time, with more competence" seems to be their motto. I don't want a more competent invasion.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian Tom R's avatar
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    republik

    Quote Originally posted by jaws View post
    You should have learned the lesson the first time around, but what you think doesn't matter a shred to what the republic decides to do. Instead of asking what the republic should do about Iraq, you should be asking what you can do about the republic.
    I learned my lesson starting when I landed at Ton Son Nhut in 1968. But, I digress. What to do about the war and the republik are like heads on the same hydra. My point is "we gotta get out of that place" and start the discussion as to how we should do it. As for as the Republik goes, the sooner we get those people who political inclinations I dare not utter in this forum out of office and/or in jail the better.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally posted by Tom R View post
    I learned my lesson starting when I landed at Ton Son Nhut in 1968. But, I digress. What to do about the war and the republik are like heads on the same hydra. My point is "we gotta get out of that place" and start the discussion as to how we should do it. As for as the Republik goes, the sooner we get those people who political inclinations I dare not utter in this forum out of office and/or in jail the better.

    The difficulty is, though, that the current strategic stance is to a large extent part of a consensus. Now, admittedly the Democrats and earlier Republicans have lacked the sheer arrogance and incompetence of the current crew, but look at the long, sad history of f*&^%ed up interventions and invasions...and it's not just President Cheney and the Dauphin Prince who are to blame (although there is plenty of blame that falls on their shoulders).

  8. #8
    maudit anglais
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    Wow, this thread lasted what, 3 maybe 4 posts before the usual suspects crapped all over it? Now why would Jeff want to even bother answering the questions Mastiff posed? It's pointless to even bother IMHO.

    Moderator note:
    This is inappropriate and unecessary. Let's PLEASE keep this discussion on-topic AND civil. Thanks! - Planderella

    Last edited by Planderella; 26 Oct 2006 at 3:52 PM.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally posted by Tranplanner View post
    Wow, this thread lasted what, 3 maybe 4 posts before the usual suspects crapped all over it? Now why would Jeff want to even bother answering the questions Mastiff posed? It's pointless to even bother IMHO.

    Hey... I call foul. Transplanner-this is a COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE STATEMENT for a moderator who claims to be a moderting influence to make! This statement is far more worthy of a Yellow Flag or a Red Flag than the heated political discussion on the closed thread ever was. Heck, I understand where El Guapo was coming from. THIS is far more of an example of a Personal Attack than anything in this trhead, or frankly, the previous thread. Where are the moderators with the yellow flag for something like this?????

    I am not crapping all over it. I am attempting to answer the bigger questions about "what needs to be done," as El Guapo and others have demanded we do. I am attempting to go beyond the usual "Elect Democrats" response. There are no personal attacks, no use of the F word, etc.. This was a legimitimate discussion, by others, too, of the deeper issues.

    If Jeff wants to respond to M's set of questions, there is nothing in this set of responses that would prevent that.

    I demand, frankly, an apology.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Tom R's avatar
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    republik

    Quote Originally posted by BKM View post
    The difficulty is, though, that the current strategic stance is to a large extent part of a consensus. Now, admittedly the Democrats and earlier Republicans have lacked the sheer arrogance and incompetence of the current crew, but look at the long, sad history of f*&^%ed up interventions and invasions...and it's not just President Cheney and the Dauphin Prince who are to blame (although there is plenty of blame that falls on their shoulders).
    I don't give a flying f*** who does it, but the country needs a sound, pragmatic foreign policy. Not the "we're the big bad bully and we're going to do what we want and you can't stop us" kind of BS. If this had happened years ago, we might not be in the terrorism mess where we find ourselves. A lot of nasty foreign policy questions have been left to fester out there and are now coming to a head.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally posted by Tom R View post
    I don't give a flying f*** who does it, but the country needs a sound, pragmatic foreign policy. Not the "we're the big bad bully and we're going to do what we want and you can't stop us" kind of BS. If this had happened years ago, we might not be in the terrorism mess where we find ourselves. A lot of nasty foreign policy questions have been left to fester out there and are now coming to a head.

    Can't disagree with this at all.. My only argument would be that we need to rethink the bigger picture-why do we have 60 military bases? Why are we so interventionist? What interests demand the approach you describe? How will the existing approach damage our ability to keep a republic?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally posted by Tom R View post
    I learned my lesson starting when I landed at Ton Son Nhut in 1968. But, I digress. What to do about the war and the republik are like heads on the same hydra. My point is "we gotta get out of that place" and start the discussion as to how we should do it.
    So just give out the order to withdraw from Iraq. Problem solved.

  13. #13
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jaws View post
    So just give out the order to withdraw from Iraq. Problem solved.
    Not for the people in Iraq... Their military and police are not ready to prevent the country from being taken over and broken into three ethic states all with terrorist control.

    We all have different ideas on what is and is not acceptable… but what will work for interrogation purposes, because nothing is not an acceptable answer anymore.

    Off-topic:
    Quote Originally posted by BKM View post
    Hey... I call foul. Transplanner-this is a COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE STATEMENT for a moderator who claims to be a moderting influence to make! This statement is far more worthy of a Yellow Flag or a Red Flag than the heated political discussion on the closed thread ever was. Heck, I understand where El Guapo was coming from. THIS is far more of an example of a Personal Attack than anything in this trhead, or frankly, the previous thread. Where are the moderators with the yellow flag for something like this?????
    I agree, some moderators need to just stay on topic instead of making comments like that. I welcome is input on the discussion, but snide comments only make people made and the moderators comments were very uncalled for... sorry to say it is not the first time that it has happened.
    If you want different results in your life, you need to do different things than you have done in the past. Change is that simple.

  14. #14
    So we withdraw from Iraq, what next? Say we close the 60 or so bases that are overseas, withdraw and all interests from overseas and fortify from within, what next? Do we seal the borders and allow noone in? What exactly do you propose?

    HOW much federal money does California get ($204,737,026,578 according to Fedspending.org)? I wonder how California would do with their social services programs and infrastructure if they didn't rely on government subsidies to tide them through.

    Do we just not concern ourselves with the issues of the world (Danfur, Ethopia, Bosnia)? Isolationism? IS this the course of action, or course of non-action that should be proposed?

    Sounds like the courses of action proposed are by those who have no stake.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Not for the people in Iraq... Their military and police are not ready to prevent the country from being taken over and broken into three ethic states all with terrorist control.
    How is that worse than now?

  16. #16
    Cyburbian Tom R's avatar
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    republik

    Quote Originally posted by CCMNUT39 View post
    So we withdraw from Iraq, what next? Say we close the 60 or so bases that are overseas, withdraw and all interests from overseas and fortify from within, what next? Do we seal the borders and allow noone in? What exactly do you propose?

    HOW much federal money does California get ($204,737,026,578 according to Fedspending.org)? I wonder how California would do with their social services programs and infrastructure if they didn't rely on government subsidies to tide them through.

    Do we just not concern ourselves with the issues of the world (Danfur, Ethopia, Bosnia)? Isolationism? IS this the course of action, or course of non-action that should be proposed?

    Sounds like the courses of action proposed are by those who have no stake.
    This probably makes sense to somebody, but it escapes me.
    IMHO, as much as I think going into Iraq was a horrible mistake, pulling out the wrong way may be just as bad. I think the stakes are higher than they were when we pulled out of Saigon.
    It's the old tiger-by-the-tail dilemma.

  17. #17
    I think the whole war in Iraq is oversenstionalized. We are only provided with a small picture of what is happening in-country. 44 dead in a day due to violence? How many Americans die a day due to violence right at home?

  18. #18
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CCMNUT39 View post

    HOW much federal money does California get ($204,737,026,578 according to Fedspending.org)? I wonder how California would do with their social services programs and infrastructure if they didn't rely on government subsidies to tide them through.

    .

    I am not sure what that has to do with anything - BUT, California's gross state product is nearly 1.5 TRILLION dollars. They bring in WAY more money than they get.

    but what will work for interrogation purposes, because nothing is not an acceptable answer anymore.
    Agreed. I just don't like the way the new law is written to allow all sorts of torture so long as it is not murder or rape. And the new law even is questionable as whether or not it allows sexual assault of people so long as its under guise of
    "interregation".

    As far as Mastiff's post - I don't think we are going to get a rebuttal to that.

  19. #19
    Cyburbian
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    Mastiff....we can discuss this via PM maybe? Honestly, I cant sit here and respond to your whole post right now, and dont feel like getting drug into the usual flame wars.

  20. #20
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jaws View post
    How is that worse than now?
    Do me a favor and turn CNN off for a moment so I can let you in on a little secretÖ







    Ok, now that you have done that, our troops donít strap bombs to the bodies of our children and have them walk into busy public places to kill as many innocent people as humanly possible. We also donít line innocent people in the streets to shoot them in the back of the head. Additionally, we are working to train the Iraqi military so that they can protect them selves so we can bring our troops home.

    In many places of the county, Iraqi citizens can walk down the streets and not be in fear of dieing for the first time in their lives. Little girls are getting to go to school, and women donít have to fear being raped and left for dead by the government.
    If you want different results in your life, you need to do different things than you have done in the past. Change is that simple.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    In many places of the county, Iraqi citizens can walk down the streets and not be in fear of dieing for the first time in their lives. Little girls are getting to go to school, and women donít have to fear being raped and left for dead by the government.
    Well great, so what the hell do they need the U.S. army for anymore?

  22. #22
    Cyburbian Tom R's avatar
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    republik

    Quote Originally posted by CCMNUT39 View post
    I think the whole war in Iraq is oversenstionalized. We are only provided with a small picture of what is happening in-country. 44 dead in a day due to violence? How many Americans die a day due to violence right at home?
    A few dead here...a few dead there...what the hell?
    yeeesh!
    I'm going back into my medicine jar.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post

    In many places of the county, Iraqi citizens can walk down the streets and not be in fear of dieing for the first time in their lives. Little girls are getting to go to school, and women donít have to fear being raped and left for dead by the government.
    In other places, religious gangs attack college students who are eating lunch in public parks, burn down stores selling alcohol, and engage in wholesale attacks on police stations. You are not really trying to claim that life in Iraq is safer and more free now?

  24. #24
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Jeff View post
    Mastiff....we can discuss this via PM maybe? Honestly, I cant sit here and respond to your whole post right now, and dont feel like getting drug into the usual flame wars.
    Well Jeff, not to be a jerk or anything... but you kind of called me out in public. I can respect your opinion, and would fight for your right to voice it, yet you asked me to provide proof (Aside from the NY Times) that you were wrong. I believe I did that. It may never change your opinion, but if you are able to provide some proof of your own that counters what I put forth, it may serve everyone reading along.

    Alas, if you can't back up your position with facts, it will also serve to show people reading along that your opinions could very well be wrong. So, I intend no flames or flame wars, just a discussion based on fact and logical assumptions.

    "Logic is as nuetral as a knife" - John Lange

    As far as time goes, there is no constraint... I'm in no hurry.
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  25. #25
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Mastiff - I think we have similar beliefs and I certainly don't defend the President; however, to be fair I think that some of the evidence cited in your post to support the poems staements as facts are misleading. For instance:


    George Bush funds sex ed that says that condoms don't work


    The article mentions that they replaced helpful information on the CDC website with information detailing failure rates of condoms. While I think this is a shameful thing that Bush did - it's a stretch IMO to state that he funds sex ed that says condoms don't work.

    George Bush authorized leaks of classified information

    I think he might very well have authorized the leaks - but the testimony by Libby states that the approval went through the VP's office and I wouldn't put it past ol Cheney to pretend as though Bush was authorizing something that he wasn't. In any case I don't see that as actual proof.

    He fcuked up FEMA, which fcuked up Katrina

    The article you cited doesn't show that Bush is responsible for messing up FEMA. Sure we all know FEMA blew it and Bush didn't feel it necessary to hold anyone accountable- but I don't see any evidence in your post that he contributed to the innefficiency of FEMA.

    George Bush vacationed while New Orleans drowned

    If I recall correctly that picture was taken before the levee broke. It shows he wasn't doing all he could to prepare for an emerging catastrophe but not really showing that he was vacationing when NO was drowning (and he did cut his vacaion short BTW ).

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