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Poll results: What do you think?

Voters
50. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes I want the Draft to come back, This is the direction of the Dems for the next two years

    3 6.00%
  • No I do not want the draft, but I do think that this is the direction for the next two years

    2 4.00%
  • Yes I want the draft, but Rangel is way out in left field and this is not the direction

    2 4.00%
  • No, I don’t want the draft and the dem’s don’t want it either.

    25 50.00%
  • My name is Jaws and Democracy and America is EVIL

    1 2.00%
  • My name is Maister and I am going to give a philosophic answer that say nothing

    0 0%
  • My name is Michelle Zone and I will give a long answer that says yes to all of the above.

    0 0%
  • These polls suck

    13 26.00%
  • Other... (I have given a very detailed answer below)

    4 8.00%
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Thread: Should America bring back the draft? A Top Dem thinks so.

  1. #1
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Should America bring back the draft? A Top Dem thinks so.

    CNN LINK
    New York Democratic Rep. Charles Rangel said Sunday he sees his idea as a way to deter politicians from launching wars. He believes a draft would bolster U.S. troop levels that are currently insufficient to cover potential future action in Iran, North Korea and Iraq.
    Several people were all worried that the Republicans would bring back the draft if Bush was re-elected two years ago. But now that the Democrats are in control of both the House and Senate do you think that they will have the pull to make it happen? The president would likely veto any draft, but it is slightly frightening that anyone would bring up such a thing. Is this what we can expect of a democrat controlled legislative branch?

    What are your thoughts on this topic? Do you want the draft? Do you think that this is just some crazy idea, or will it be the direction of the Democrats for the next two years?
    "I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which, was that you can fail at what you don't want, so you might as well take a chance on doing what you love." - Jim Carrey

  2. #2
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Rangel has been talking about a conscription act for years now - I pretty much read it as posturing on his part. No, I do not think this is the direction the Democratic party wants to take the country for the next two years. (sorry, Mskis, if my response was too laconic and straightforward )
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Brocktoon's avatar
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    Rangel has been saying this for years and he has got no traction. His rational is flawed since we fought Vietnam with a drafted army. Also the structure of the Armed Forces with combat support rolls being transferred to the National Guard was supposed to deter war and that has not happen either.

    Besides the rich have always found ways out of military service, whether it be buying your way out ( wealthy families in the Civil War), finding someone to volunteer in your place, hiding in a non deployable branch of the National Guard (Bush and Quayle)or having a doctor certify you as 4F but clear you to ski (Dean).

    If we really want to deter war Congress should require the Executive Branch to demonstrate an exit strategy before the commitment of troops.
    "If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less" General Eric Shinseki

  4. #4
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Brocktoon View post
    If we really want to deter war Congress should require the Executive Branch to demonstrate an exit strategy before the commitment of troops.
    Or we should require thm to go... along with all their family members.
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  5. #5
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Is Rangel a member in here? Someone picked “Yes they want the draft back”!

    I don’t think that the draft is the answer. As for the exit strategy, any military conflict of this nature will morph and change based on one side following the understood international rules of engagement while the other side tortures civilians and troops.

    Looking back, maybe we should not have invaded Iraq, but based on the information presented at the time, even former president Clinton, and congress felt that an invasion was necessary.

    I say ok Democrats, just after the 1st of the year, you have control of the Legislative Branch... less see what you come up with as a plan. If you don’t have one, quit whining.

    (Note that this message is only to those who are elected representatives and not to Cyburbians)
    "I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which, was that you can fail at what you don't want, so you might as well take a chance on doing what you love." - Jim Carrey

  6. #6
    Cyburbian michiganplanner's avatar
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    I'm not "feeling" some of the poll choices.
    I'd be more apathetic if I weren't so lethargic.

  7. #7
    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
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    Can we say Vietnam Redux? No draft.
    "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" Jeremiah 22:16

  8. #8
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    The institution of a draft would have the effect of making future wars far more difficult to wage - and that's not entirely a bad thing in an age where wars are fought without declarations (at least not since Pearl Harbor). On the other hand, conscripted armies tend to have worse morale and lower levels of knowlege and professionalism. There seems to be this popular image that the average soldier is an idiot, but that is simply not the case. As military equipment, tactics and communications have increased in complexity over the decades, the training requirements have had to keep pace as well. The days of 6 weeks of bootcamp, give you a uniform, hand you an M-1 and tell you to go shoot the Bad Guys are long past. It takes many many months of training to deploy a cutting edge army these days and the historical 2 year term of conscription will no longer cut it. Unless we're just looking for warm bodies to repel a Chinese invasion, I'd say overall we're better off with a professional volunteer army.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  9. #9
    Cyburbian
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    Well, if any sort of draft legislation were to see the light of day, the repubs better filibuster the hell out of it. And shame on the dems if they let one person's crazy, out of touch with reality idea get out of a committee. There is a reason congress has such rules (and I'm thinking the repubs are starting to see the light on not changing the rules)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally posted by cololi View post
    Well, if any sort of draft legislation were to see the light of day, the repubs better filibuster the hell out of it. And shame on the dems if they let one person's crazy, out of touch with reality idea get out of a committee. There is a reason congress has such rules (and I'm thinking the repubs are starting to see the light on not changing the rules)
    They could pass it without anyone even noticing.
    Would my family and I be better off financially if senators and congressmen HAD TO read every bill they vote on?

    Everyone's family would be better off, other than the Senators and Congressmen.

    Of course, the problem begins much lower than Washington. The best book ever written on this topic is "What Makes You Think We Read the Bills?" by California state senator H. L. "Bill" Richardson. It is a very funny book on a very depressing subject. Richardson was arguably the most astute conservative state legislator in California's recent history.

    It's not just the bills, of course. It's also the "Federal Register." That monstrosity is back to 90,000 pages a year. There, executive branch agencies publish the rules and regulations that they have been authorized to promulgate by the laws that Congress never read. No one reads it, either. But, unlike most bills, which are not passed into law, any regulation in the "Federal Register" becomes operational in 30 days unless Congress protests. Rarely does Congress protest, because even fewer Congressional staffers skim the "Federal Register" daily than skim the "Congressional Record" or specific bills.

    I know. I was a Congressional staffer.

    If you think this sounds insane. consider this insanity. For your typical 400-page bill, the Senate will hold hearings. The committee in charge of the bill invites experts to testify. They submit papers for or against the bill. Sometimes they are paid by lobbying organizations to testify. The testimony can easily run to 2,000 pages. The Government Printing Office dutifully prints this material.

    Then, two weeks later, the equivalent House committee holds hearings. Usually, the same experts return to testify. They submit the same papers. The House orders the Government Printing Office to print this testimony.

    Then maybe the bill fails to pass.

    Even if it does pass, the same procedure takes place in the following year in the case of annual legislation, such as passing the budget. There is an insight of economics that should not be ignored. It has to do with asymmetry of information. A special-interest group that stands to pull in an extra billion dollars because of a new law -- or lose a billion dollars -- has considerable incentive to influence the legislation. The average voter has no awareness of such a provision, nor would it pay him to find out. After all, his share of the expense is probably not measurable. Nobody tracks this. Nobody warns the average voter. Nobody could afford to warn the average voter, who would not read the warning or understand it.

    Who wins? Special interests. Who loses? Taxpayers.

    It does no good to complain about all this. It is inherent in the nature of legislation and the cost of information.

    The voters do not care. So, the legislators will not read the bills.

    CONCLUSION

    Consumers are interested in what benefits them or threatens them. In their capacity as voters, they are not equally concerned. What interests us as decision-makers is specific to us. We are less interested in whatever doesn't have measurable effects on our lives.

    The profit-seeking entrepreneur must pay attention to what his customers want or fear. He must pay attention to details. Congressmen are not paid -- in votes -- to pay attention to the details.

    People respond in terms of how they are rewarded. When we pay Congressmen differently, they will perform differently.

    That'll be the day, Pilgrim.

    http://www.garynorth.com/public/1753.cfm
    Just correcting market failures here. Nothing to see, move along.

  11. #11
    NIMBY asshatterer Plus Richmond Jake's avatar
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    Correction: Rep. Rangel is not The Top Democrat. That title belongs to Nancy Pelosi. Mr. Rangel is a top Democrat.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian The One's avatar
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    Ah.....well....

    No draft needed.....just a modest bump in salary for military personnel should do the trick and save us a whole heck of a lot of money.

    By the way, according to my pay.....I'd barely be a Lieutenant Colonel or Commander if in the Navy.....

    http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theor...fficerrank.htm

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  13. #13
    Cyburbian AubieTurtle's avatar
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    Hmmmmm... I didn't see an option for:

    I'm a troll so I use polls to slam people. I should work for a company that does push polling.



    (I think that karma is now going to get me and make michaelskis my secret santa)
    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - H.L. Mencken

  14. #14
    Cyburbian
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    Don't care, don't mind... Not my war and it's definitely not my a$$ that's going to get drafted into war anyways...

  15. #15
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by AubieTurtle View post
    Hmmmmm... I didn't see an option for:

    I'm a troll so I use polls to slam people. I should work for a company that does push polling.



    (I think that karma is now going to get me and make michaelskis my secret santa)
    I am not a troll... I just like to encourage conversation with other informed individuals based on current topics that often make headline news.

    Do I think that it is Ironic that a Democrat (A Leader at that) is preaching this... oh heck yea, given the number of times someone has told be that the Republicans would do it.

    As for the Secret Santa thing, I never take political, religious, or economic discussions personally. In fact, I prefer that I get into a heated debate with someone because it is then that two people can learn more about ideas and beliefs that differ there own.

    For example, I don’t agree with Jaws when it comes to government in any aspect. He knows it, I know it, but if given the chance to know him, I am sure that he is a good guy and I am sure that we would share a lot in common.

    It all comes down to what a person is willing to accept as another persons view point, even if you strongly disagree. One viewpoint will often not dictate their entire lives... People are people, no different than me or you!

    Maister on the other hand is a total lost cause and I just deal with him because we share a cubicle wall.
    Last edited by michaelskis; 21 Nov 2006 at 10:13 AM.
    "I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which, was that you can fail at what you don't want, so you might as well take a chance on doing what you love." - Jim Carrey

  16. #16
    Cyburbian Jen's avatar
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    my other is a conspiracy theory

    I m really suspicious of the draft and possible implications for the anticipated guest worker progroms.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian Rumpy Tunanator's avatar
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    Come on These polls suck ! You can do it!!!!!!
    A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."


    Neil McCauley (Robert DeNiro): Heat 1995

  18. #18
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Jen View post
    I m really suspicious of the draft and possible implications for the anticipated guest worker progroms.
    Hmm, interesting plan. Back in ancient Rome auxilliaries and their families were granted citizenship status after 25 years service....
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  19. #19
    Cyburbian Brocktoon's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Do I think that it is Ironic that a Democrat (Majority Leader at that) is preaching this... oh heck yea, given the number of times someone has told be that the Republicans would do it.

    |
    Steny Hoyer (The Majority leader in waiting) is not supporting a draft, neither is the Speaker in waiting. Skelton ( the soon to be chair on the Armed Services Committee) has said it willl not even see the light of day in his committee.

    Heres a link:
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/...aft/index.html
    "If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less" General Eric Shinseki

  20. #20
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    A little Variation...

    I guess my opinion, and I think Burb Fixer and I have discussed this in another thread, is that there should be some sort of service for Americans aged 18-20. They'd have the choice to go into military service, peace corps, or domestic VISTA volunteer (or something similar).
    I think this two year service would be good for both the country and the young Americans themselves (maybe offering them a good dose pf perspective and humility).
    This would be prior to attending college.
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
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  21. #21
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    No draft, just mandatory service for all able bodied males before they go to college.

    Then again, a draft would be cool in the fact that I'd love to thrash some Wall Street type power broker ....

  22. #22
    I can understand why people think there should be universal service in the peace corp, etc. but is that fair to the poor people we want to help? Give em our most inexperienced, least understanding people to build things, provide services, etc. Isn't that just also taking away jobs from the poor?

  23. #23
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    If a government can't convince the public that a war is the right thing to do and said government needs to draft people in order to fight the war, then that government needs to be overthrown.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  24. #24
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by Gotta Speakup View post
    I can understand why people think there should be universal service in the peace corp, etc. but is that fair to the poor people we want to help? Give em our most inexperienced, least understanding people to build things, provide services, etc. Isn't that just also taking away jobs from the poor?
    I kind of agree. Some sort of training prior to would be helpful. I did a VISTA project while I was in school my sophomore year (working on issues on an Indian Reservation: it was planning related). I think it would have been much more beneficial to everyone if I knew what I was doing.l Ilearned on the job, which is kind of the point I guess.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    If a government can't convince the public that a war is the right thing to do and said government needs to draft people in order to fight the war, then that government needs to be overthrown.
    The United States did not fight World War II with an all volunteer armed force. Should the government have been overthrown for having instituted a draft?
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