Urban planning community | #theplannerlife

Closed thread
Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Planning vs. Free State radicals

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Sundance, WY
    Posts
    24

    Planning vs. Free State radicals

    Any experience with your comprehensive plan drawing the ire of Free Staters?

  2. #2
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
    Registered
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Land of Confusion
    Posts
    3,872
    what are Free Staters? Libertarians??

  3. #3
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
    Registered
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Down by Dun Ringill
    Posts
    6,658
    Blog entries
    6
    How numerous are these Free Staters in your county? Are they a honest-to-God impediment, capable of controlling the process? Or are they just a vocal minority using the seagull strategy (flying in, making a lot of noise, and crapping on everything)?

    If they are a super-vocal minority, the government listens to them, thanks them for their input, and then does what is right for the residents of the county.

    If they are a majority, you listen to their concerns, seek to undertand and to be understood, bend a little if you can without forfeiting your fiduciary duties, then does what is right for the residents of the county.

    Invite them to attend work sessions on the comp plan. In a work session the planning board has a lot more discretion about handling public comment. They are there to work, not listen to tirades against government. Allow them to comment, by all means, but only to ask questions or make comments. They may have legitimate concerns and helpful suggestions. But work sessions are not a place for soap box rants.

    Just because they have a right to comment, does not give them a right to commandeer the process. Nor does it mean the governing body cannot require those commenting do so in a respectful and orderly process. Time limits can be placed on public testimony. People can be encouraged to provide written comment. Make sure you follow the statutory requirements, and maybe even go a little beyond what is required.

    Hopefully the governing body in your jurisdiction has enough backbone to stand up and do what is right.
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

    ~ Otterpop ~

  4. #4
    Forums Administrator & Gallery Moderator NHPlanner's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 1996
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    7,906
    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller View post
    what are Free Staters? Libertarians??
    Free State Project

    Free State Wyoming
    "Growth is inevitable and desirable, but destruction of community character is not. The question is not whether your part of the world is going to change. The question is how." -- Edward T. McMahon, The Conservation Fund

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Sundance, WY
    Posts
    24

    Free Staters

    Quote Originally posted by otterpop View post
    How numerous are these Free Staters in your county? Are they a honest-to-God impediment, capable of controlling the process? Or are they just a vocal minority using the seagull strategy (flying in, making a lot of noise, and crapping on everything)?

    If they are a super-vocal minority, the government listens to them, thanks them for their input, and then does what is right for the residents of the county.

    If they are a majority, you listen to their concerns, seek to undertand and to be understood, bend a little if you can without forfeiting your fiduciary duties, then does what is right for the residents of the county.

    Invite them to attend work sessions on the comp plan. In a work session the planning board has a lot more discretion about handling public comment. They are there to work, not listen to tirades against government. Allow them to comment, by all means, but only to ask questions or make comments. They may have legitimate concerns and helpful suggestions. But work sessions are not a place for soap box rants.

    Just because they have a right to comment, does not give them a right to commandeer the process. Nor does it mean the governing body cannot require those commenting do so in a respectful and orderly process. Time limits can be placed on public testimony. People can be encouraged to provide written comment. Make sure you follow the statutory requirements, and maybe even go a little beyond what is required.

    Hopefully the governing body in your jurisdiction has enough backbone to stand up and do what is right.

    Thanks for the input...We are on that track, letting them show thier ass in front of the pioneers of the county, their Van Nuys ways come to the surface like oil in water...we may just turn them over to homeland security since they seem to like to stand around on the courthouse porch with their guns strapped on....domestic terrorists plain and simple...yes, we are documenting everything in case of a lawsuit, so I do not make extemporaneous presentations to groups in the county, it is all written and I read it and note the where, when and who on the presentation and file it.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
    Registered
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Down by Dun Ringill
    Posts
    6,658
    Blog entries
    6
    Quote Originally posted by sundanceplanner View post
    ...we may just turn them over to homeland security since they seem to like to stand around on the courthouse porch with their guns strapped on....domestic terrorists plain and simple...
    Montana had its turn with these kinds of knuckleheads. Law enforcement had a very effective method when it was time to bring one in for questioning or arrest. No big ATF raid. They just kept an eye on the suspect and caught him when he was alone - usually in his car. Surrounded him with superior force and arrested him. For all their bluster, these folks usually go meek as lambs when the cops descend upon them with guns drawn.

    These folks should read some history of this country. Armed rebellion has always been quashed. We cannot tolerate armed extremists threatening the puiblic health, safety and welfare.

    Good luck with them.
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

    ~ Otterpop ~

  7. #7
    Cyburbian Random Traffic Guy's avatar
    Registered
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lone Star State
    Posts
    642
    we may just turn them over to homeland security since they seem to like to stand around on the courthouse porch with their guns strapped on


    Quote Originally posted by otterpop View post
    Montana had its turn with these kinds of knuckleheads. Law enforcement had a very effective method when it was time to bring one in for questioning or arrest. No big ATF raid. They just kept an eye on the suspect and caught him when he was alone - usually in his car. Surrounded him with superior force and arrested him. For all their bluster, these folks usually go meek as lambs when the cops descend upon them with guns drawn.
    ??? Not seeing any lawbreaking going on. Sundance are you new to the west? Wyoming is an open carry state, part of the reason why the west part of the Free State movement split to go there. I think you must be thinking of the tax protestors or phony writ writers in Montana?

    Using the public comment and work process is hardly illegal, even when it goes against what the professional planners want. I would have thought that the staff would appreciate some interested and motivated citizens. You are there to serve the residents, right??

    These folks should read some history of this country. Armed rebellion has always been quashed. We cannot tolerate armed extremists threatening the puiblic health, safety and welfare.


    Yeah, that American Revolution really got quashed. 2nd revolution would have won too, had Lincoln not thrown away the Constitution to keep the seccessionists in.

  8. #8
    BANNED
    Registered
    Oct 2005
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    6
    What specifically have they done that leads you to believe you've drawn their ire?

    ND

  9. #9
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
    Registered
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Down by Dun Ringill
    Posts
    6,658
    Blog entries
    6
    Quote Originally posted by Random Traffic Guy View post
    Yeah, that American Revolution really got quashed. 2nd revolution would have won too, had Lincoln not thrown away the Constitution to keep the seccessionists in.
    The country was formed as a result of the American Revolution. The clock for our nation started ticking at the surrender of the British when counting armed rebellions against our nation. The second "revolution" would never have been won. The war was begun when armed forces attacked a U.S. military instillation, and it ended when the U.S. army defeated the rebel forces. The South did not have the resources to start the war nor the resources to win. After Gettysburg, it was a slow countdown to the South's surrender. And, as I said, armed rebellions have always failed. More so now than in the past.
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

    ~ Otterpop ~

  10. #10
    Quote Originally posted by sundanceplanner View post
    their Van Nuys ways come to the surface like oil in water
    What are Van Nuys ways?

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Jen's avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2001
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    1,508

    welcome madsen.

    caint say fer sure, but i spect he's talking about them thar californy secessionists.

  12. #12

    from the Founder of Free State Wyoming

    Greetings all,

    I am the founder of Free State Wyoming, and thus apparently the chief
    "radical", "nutjob", "extremist", and "knucklehead" according to some here.

    For the sake of a public dialogue, and preventing some expressed ignorance from
    festering into "fact", I (speaking for myself) offer the following replies here and elsewhere.

    Cordially,

    Kenneth Royce, Founder
    freestatewyoming.org




    _______________
    from The Continental:
    If they are a majority, you listen to their concerns, seek to undertand and to be understood, bend a little if you can without forfeiting your fiduciary duties, then does what is right for the residents of the county.
    I.e., condescend to the majority will of the locals, and then ignore such
    as you enact whatever it was they objected to. You Know What Is Right.

    Thank you for stating it so baldly.




    Montana had its turn with these kinds of knuckleheads. Law enforcement had a very effective method when it was time to bring one in for questioning or arrest. No big ATF raid. They just kept an eye on the suspect and caught him when he was alone - usually in his car. Surrounded him with superior force and arrested him. For all their bluster, these folks usually go meek as lambs when the cops descend upon them with guns drawn.
    Gee, there's just no winning for an "armed extremist".
    They're psychotic if they resist (e.g., Carl Drega), and cowardly if they peacefully surrender.
    As your respect is no doubt important to them, what alternate action do you recommend?
    A mildly injurious form of resisting arrest?




    _______________
    from sundanceplanner:
    "We are on that track, letting them show thier ass in front of the pioneers of the county"
    Are you alleging unlawful indecent exposure, or just trying to sound cute?



    "their Van Nuys ways come to the surface like oil in water.."
    AFAIK, no FSWer is from Van Nuys, California, much less has "Van Nuys ways" (whatever those are).
    Your ignorance about us is staggering.




    ...we may just turn them over to homeland security since they seem to like to stand around on the courthouse porch with their guns strapped on....domestic terrorists plain and simple...
    "seem to like to..."?
    So, you're not certain and thus just guessing?




    "stand around on the courthouse porch with their guns strapped on"
    First I've heard of that. Is this yet another thing you're guessing about?

    Besides, where's your gun? You've the right to openly carry, too.
    Or, do you prefer that others carry your gun for you?




    "domestic terrorists plain and simple..."
    "Terrorism" is the use or threat of aggressive violence as a political tool.
    Nobody in Crook County, much less any FSWer, has ever done any such thing.
    Your "domestic terrorists" name-calling was unsound, insulting, and fatuous in the extreme.

    I find it highly revealing that the first wave of peaceable dissent over your county "plan"
    would tempt you to such an absurd overreaction. Your hair-trigger willingness to call out
    the guns--over nonviolent citizen participation in a scheduled county meeting--is embarrassing.


    "Don't you all dare to question our 'cultural heritage planning' else we'll turn you over to the Department of Homeland Security!"



    yes, we are documenting everything in case of a lawsuit, so I do not make extemporaneous presentations to groups in the county, it is all written and I read it and note the where, when and who on the presentation and file it.
    Lawsuit? On what just grounds? That the locals peaceably object to your "planning"? Boo, hoo!


    _______________
    from Random Traffic Guy:
    ??? Not seeing any lawbreaking going on. Sundance are you new to the west? Wyoming is an open carry state, part of the reason why the west part of the Free State movement split to go there....

    Using the public comment and work process is hardly illegal, even when it goes against what the professional planners want. I would have thought that the staff would appreciate some interested and motivated citizens. You are there to serve the residents, right??
    Indeed, RTG, indeed.
    It's refreshing to read something rational and informed here.
    Thanks for your post.

    Kenneth Royce


    _________________________________

  13. #13
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 1996
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    14,740
    Blog entries
    3
    Moderator note:
    I'm going to keep this thread in this subforum, because it deals primarily with land use, and the public participation process. Discussion of the property rights movement is also an appropriate topic for this subforum. Discussion of guns, Second Amendment rights and libertarianism in general are not.

    Please remember to keep things civil. Critique and criticize ideas, not individuals. Avoid disparaging terms like "gun nuts" or "damn commie planners" when addressing others you're debating with. Thanks!


    That being said, sundanceplanner, if you're new to Wyoming, are you aware of Western Planner magazine? Free Staters aside, a large percentage of property owners in the rural Rocky Mountain region will harbor a libertarian-leaning outlook towards government regulations of any sort, not just planning. There are many old articles in Western Planner that discuss how to deal with the conflicts that will inevitably come up. Also, make friends with a grizzled, crusty, seen-it-all planner who has spent a good portion of their career in a rural Rocky Mountain community. A few of them are here on Cyburbia. Bonus points if they own horses and/or guns.

    Those born and raised in the rural West tend to be thrifty with their speech. You've heard the rancher accent, where teeth are clenched shut and lips barely move. Westerners also value silence; it's a trait learned from the Indian tribes that inhabited the region, and the isolation one experiences when working on their land. In presenting your view to the public, keep it short, and keep it simple. When you're speaking, try to use analogies to present big-picture ideas in few words. Read some Edward Abbey for inspiration. His writing captures the spirit of the rural West, and his values include a healthy mix of libertarian ideals and disdain for those that would only exploit the land he loves so much. Here's a start.

    How to overthrow the system: brew your own beer; kick in your Tee Vee; kill your own beef; build your own cabin and piss off the front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it. -- Edward Abbey

    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

    Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

    The rancher strings barbed wire across the range, drills wells and bulldozes stock ponds everywhere, drives off the elk and antelope and bighorn sheep, poisons coyotes and prairie dogs, shoots eagle and bear and cougar on sight, supplants the native bluestem and grama grass with tumbleweed, cow $hit, cheat grass, snakeweed, anthills, poverty weed, mud and dust and flies--and then leans back and smiles broadly at the Tee Vee cameras and tells us how much he loves the West. -- Edward Abbey

  14. #14
    Please remember to keep things civil. Critique and criticize ideas, not individuals. Avoid disparaging terms like "gun nuts" or "damn commie planners" when addressing others you're debating with. Thanks!
    I will do so, Dan.

    Regards,
    Kenneth

  15. #15
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 1996
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    14,740
    Blog entries
    3
    Quote Originally posted by Kenneth Royce, FSW View post
    I will do so, Dan.
    Moderator note:
    Hopefully, everybody will in this thread. We try to be fair in our moderation.

    Earlier, you probably noticed some disparaging comments that were made before you joined the thread. Many of us have said similar things when venting about a group of people who might vehemently disagree with us. The same thing probably happens on your side, too. Hopefully, during the time we're together at this virtual table, there can be some mutual respect. Welcome to Cyburbia, everybody!


    At one planning agency office I visited, one of the planners kept a Soviet flag on his desk. When I asked why, he said "Hey, if anyone is going to call me a commie planner, I should at least look the part!"

    History seems to show that radical, pure ideology never seem to work as their authors had intended in practice. Take communism. Communism has admirable goals -- a classless, stateless social organization, based upon common ownership of the means of production. (The roots of urban and regional date back thousands of years, so planning equals communism accusations are really baseless.) Implementing communism, though, is like plowing a bulldozer in the opposite direction of human nature. You've seen the results. Despite all of communism's inherent flaws, there's still a few good ideas in there; things that are workable and practical. Not many, IMHO, but a few.

    I think about pure libertarianism in much the same way; an ideology that is admirable in its goals, but in practice it's unworkable, much like communism. Despite that, there could be some ideas tucked in among the rhetoric. Why not try to find them? One example: the Code of the West has been embraced by many planners, but it's something I think many libertarians would also agree with.

    In a public meeting, do you think all the suggestions raised by the little old ladies in the audience are good? Probably not, but there could be a valid point or good idea that will come up somewhere. Why not do the same thing when dealing with vocal property rights advocates? No, they probably won't be happy with the finished product, because it doesn't reflect their ideology. You are NOT going to change their minds. Still, give them a voice, don't let them dominate the process, keep things on-topic, avoid having them say the same things over and over and over again, and try to find some nuggets of gold.

  16. #16
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
    Registered
    Jul 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    7,061
    Off-topic:
    Good posting practices


    Of course, this is a little like trying to close the barn door after the horse escaped, but maybe it will help folks remember in the future.

  17. #17
    BANNED
    Registered
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lawrence, KS
    Posts
    1
    Vocal property rights advocates are vocal because their property has been taken for public use or limited for their own use without just compensation.

    They are property enthusiasts because private property and free markets work. Socialist central planning does not work. That's why the Soviet Union disintegrated.

    And rights are guaranteed by foundational documents, such as the national and state constitutions. It would be unwise of planners to be dismissive of individual rights. It would be mistaken to suppose that people who have rights are going to ignore trespass on those rights.

    Naturally, having your planning department sued and your name listed prominently in a Supreme Court decision rejecting your authority to do whatever it was that trampled on a man's property or failed to respect his individual liberty might not be the career move you were looking for.

    - Thoreau

  18. #18
    Quote Originally posted by Dan View post
    History seems to show that radical, pure ideology never seem to work as their authors had intended in practice. Take communism. Communism has admirable goals -- a classless, stateless social organization, based upon common ownership of the means of production. (The roots of urban and regional date back thousands of years, so planning equals communism accusations are really baseless.) Implementing communism, though, is like plowing a bulldozer in the opposite direction of human nature. You've seen the results. Despite all of communism's inherent flaws, there's still a few good ideas in there; things that are workable and practical. Not many, IMHO, but a few.
    It's true that city planning goes back a thousand years. However, communist city planning in the model of democratically-administered cities and regions is a recent phenomenon, and people have a right to be indignant about it considering the exploitative nature of communism.

  19. #19
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 1996
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    14,740
    Blog entries
    3
    Moderator note:
    This thread is closed. It inspired an invasion from two different message boards.

    If a group of born-again Christians started to invade a Jewish, Hindu or Buddhist message board, and started to post messages about how Jesus is the savior, they're all sinners in the eyes of the Lord, and that they're all damned to eternal hellfire, you would expect that the members of that board would have a right to be upset.

    Planners aren't invading the Free State forums. If any Cyburbians do, they'll be suspended; we don't want to be a party to a board war. Apparently, though, some in the Free State movement want to start one, since a group of them -- from two different boards -- invaded here. Even though they might find planning an anathema to their ideals, encouraging an invasion of this site crossed the line, much like fundamentalists evangelizing on an atheist site. Digging up and revealing personal information about some mods here was over the pale -- and contrary to a core tenet of libertarianism, a right to privacy. I guess they believe that right only applies to those who agree with them.

    Moderators will be banning suspected forum invaders on sight. Under different circumstances they would be welcome here; active Cyburbia members include those across the entire political spectrum, including libertarianism. Group invasions, joining only to single-mindedly promote a personal agenda, and violating the privacy of users, on the other hand - no. If they can't be "good neighbors", as they desire in the places where they want to settle, they're not welcome here.

    In addition, sundance, you're suspended for three days. Posts made to Cyburbia are visible to the public, and easily found with Google or Yahoo. You should have been a bit more diplomatic with your post. The mods and I are spending hours of our free time cleaning up this mess.
    Last edited by Mastiff; 05 Feb 2007 at 8:45 PM.

Closed thread

More at Cyburbia

  1. Replies: 66
    Last post: 15 Jun 2007, 10:31 PM
  2. Replies: 31
    Last post: 25 Mar 2004, 9:03 PM