People and their mindsets about the city?

[DetroitPlanner]

hmm most New Urbanism developments ain't nothing but that pig sprawl with lipstick.
Going to Barcelona or New York won't help you do much to KC. Look at places like St Louis instead.

You seem to think that only your mindset is best. A planner can't do squat without building coallitions, listening to needs, and addressing the goals of a community.

Planners are not Popes. We listen and respond to needs we do not have the power of change, we only guide it. It is ultimately up to the citizenry and economics to decide a cities fate.

You can't have cities without people. People are more important than streets or density.

[HeartlandCityBoy]

Also, my only connection to the city is ppl I know who live there and rap/hip hop. From reading interviews with and listening to Tech N9ne, I know it sounds funny, but I've actually learned a lot about people and neighborhoods in urban KC.

[brandonmason]

Also, my only connection to the city is ppl I know who live there and rap/hip hop. From reading interviews with and listening to Tech N9ne, I know it sounds funny, but I've actually learned a lot about people and neighborhoods in urban KC.

HCB, so you're extolling the virtues of living in the city, even though you've never lived there and have only learned about it from hip hop culture? That's not realistic at all. Before you start blasting suburb dwellers as racist idiots who are missing out on the good life, you should at least spend a few years living in a city.

I've lived in cities and suburbs. When I was just a suburb-dweller, I glamorized cities and was eager to live there myself--just like you, I imagine. But after experiencing city living, I know it's not for everyone. Right now, I'm in Manhattan (about as "city" as you can get in the US). I've seen more racism in cities than I ever did living in the suburbs. I see even MORE isolationism in cities than I did in the suburbs. And regardless of what you think of culture, or the type of people who live in the suburbs, or whatever--the fact is there are serious livability problems in cities--including HIGH col and LOW qol.

[cch]

What can I learn from people whose ideas would destroy cities? THe only thing I want to ever do is stop these people from ever being considered for a significant job in planning.

I don't think you realize that the elected officials are the ones who ultimately make the decisions. Planners only serve to advise and educate. I don't know how old you are or how much life experience you have outside of the planning related literature you've been reading. But I'd be interested to see where you end up, after you're done with school and working that first planning job. I'd venture to bet that you end up back in the suburbs at some point, and you end up bowing to what your boss (the elected officials) want, this is, if you want to keep your job and not drive yourself too crazy. Heck, chances are you'll end up working for a suburb or rural area.

[otterpop]

RTG, it's called:

Jane Jacobs
Kevin Lynch
Barcelona, Copenhagen, Manhattan, Brooklyn, Vancouver, Portland, Zurich, Rome, Strasbourg, Paris, London, Athens, Curitiba
Smart Growth
Authentic Urbanism
New Urbanism
Mass Transit and Pedestrian Oriented Streets/Cities, not Personal Automobile
Anti-Sprawl
Communitarianism

Supported by planning and development of cities thousands of years before the 1950s. "Death and Life of Great American Cities", "The Image Of the City", design of European and dense American cities.
http://www.ceds.org/
http://www.newurbannews.com/
http://www.sierraclub.org/sprawl/
http://smartgrowthplanning.org/
http://www.smartgrowth.org/
http://www.sprawlcity.org/
http://www.toronto.ca/planning/pdf/t...ug17_final.pdf

Those are books and organizations with their own agenda. I am well acquainted with Jane Jacobs and Smart Growth. I work with the Smart Growth folks all the time.

You talk about what the people NEED versus what they WANT. What do you really know about what they NEED or WANT? You speak about the people as an intellectual construct, as a mass of faceless people.

When I talk about what people need or want, I am speaking about people who have come to my office or to meetings. People with names and addresses and NEEDS and WANTS. They come to us. We try to help them.

As a planner, I have to look at the Big Picture. But equally, if not more important are the John and Jane Does that come to the county for help. Personally, I get more job satisfaction from helping good people than I do on the Big Picture items.

It is the people and what we can do for them that makes my job worthwhile spending part of my life doing. Buildings, sewer lines, public parks, The City will never love you. The City will never greet you on the street with affection, or stand up at a public meeting and thank you on TV for the work you have done.

A planner serves many masters: his government(s), the residents, the laws and regulations, and his profession. It is not an easy balance. Sometimes you have to divorce your personal feeling about a matter from what you are required by your fiduciary duties.

Cities, towns, counties are nothing without the people. Not people in a general concept, but people with names who work hard every day, take their kids to school and pay their taxes (which makes a planner's pay possible).

You are a young, idealistic young man. That is how it should be and it is a good thing. Life experience will temper that idealism. It will not take it away. It may redirect it. It will, at the very least, give you greater perspective.

Books are fine tools. But do not limit yourself to only those that agree with your perspective. You quote Jacobs and Lynch. I find equal value in Aldo Leopold, Ian McHarg, Wallace Stegner and Wendell Berry. When you go to college, take advantage of a diverse education. Have fun, too.

I would advise that you not get so fired up. You will last longer. Planners can burn out quickly without perspective and an ability to leave work at the office.

Do good work. Inform. Forgive. Listen. Try to understand people. Drink a beer or two. Find good people to spend time with. Marry well. Love your kids. Laugh a lot. These are the keys to a good life. Whether Kansas City prospers or falters is a matter you can only have limited impact on.

[vaughan]

HCB- First off, if you're going to be an effective communicator, you have to calm down the rhetoric. The point of websites like this are not to rail against each other and sledgehammer your opinion onto other people (though that goes on), but to have a conversation. Think about it.

Second, Jane Jacobs, while an incredible champion of urbanism, wrote her big book in what, the '60's? Planning has changed immensely in the last few decades, in no small part due to her critiques. You cannot lump planners today in with the planners of 40-50 years ago.

Third, someone else said it already a few posts back, but planners work for politicians. Planners advise, politicians decide. You can argue it should be different, but if we're to live in a democracy, this is the reality.

Fourth, you can bash the people and talk about what they want and need, but you should realize that one of the most rewarding and enjoyable parts of this job includes giving ordinary folks good information so that they can, hopefully, make good decisions. Link this up with point three and you've got the daily challenge for planners.

Fifth, a slight change in the way you look at things could help. One of the joys of planning and urbanism is looking at, thinking about, and enjoying the differences in how communities grow and change. Barcelona is going to look and function different than KC because it developed under different circumstances. KC is going to look different than NYC or Boston. Boston looks different than Seattle. Every place is different. Enjoy it. Instead of railing about politics and power, understand that they're a part of community life and start appreciating the differences. Open the mind a little bit, my friend.

Those are books and organizations with their own agenda. I am well acquainted with Jane Jacobs and Smart Growth. I work with the Smart Growth folks all the time.

You talk about what the people NEED versus what they WANT. What do you really know about what they NEED or WANT? You speak about the people as an intellectual construct, as a mass of faceless people.

When I talk about what people need or want, I am speaking about people who have come to my office or to meetings. People with names and addresses and NEEDS and WANTS. They come to us. We try to help them.

As a planner, I have to look at the Big Picture. But equally, if not more important are the John and Jane Does that come to the county for help. Personally, I get more job satisfaction from helping good people than I do on the Big Picture items.

It is the people and what we can do for them that makes my job worthwhile spending part of my life doing. Buildings, sewer lines, public parks, The City will never love you. The City will never greet you on the street with affection, or stand up at a public meeting and thank you on TV for the work you have done.

A planner serves many masters: his government(s), the residents, the laws and regulations, and his profession. It is not an easy balance. Sometimes you have to divorce your personal feeling about a matter from what you are required by your fiduciary duties.

Cities, towns, counties are nothing without the people. Not people in a general concept, but people with names who work hard every day, take their kids to school and pay their taxes (which makes a planner's pay possible).

You are a young, idealistic young man. That is how it should be and it is a good thing. Life experience will temper that idealism. It will not take it away. It may redirect it. It will, at the very least, give you greater perspective.

Books are fine tools. But do not limit yourself to only those that agree with your perspective. You quote Jacobs and Lynch. I find equal value in Aldo Leopold, Ian McHarg, Wallace Stegner and Wendell Berry. When you go to college, take advantage of a diverse education. Have fun, too.

I would advise that you not get so fired up. You will last longer. Planners can burn out quickly without perspective and an ability to leave work at the office.

Do good work. Inform. Forgive. Listen. Try to understand people. Drink a beer or two. Find good people to spend time with. Marry well. Love your kids. Laugh a lot. These are the keys to a good life. Whether Kansas City prospers or falters is a matter you can only have limited impact on.

BY the way, Otterpop- good thoughts for everyone. THanks.

[jaws]

Third, someone else said it already a few posts back, but planners work for politicians. Planners advise, politicians decide. You can argue it should be different, but if we're to live in a democracy, this is the reality.

You know what must be done then.

[bud]

You know what must be done then.

Quote:
Originally posted by vaughan
Third, someone else said it already a few posts back, but planners work for politicians. Planners advise, politicians decide. You can argue it should be different, but if we're to live in a democracy, this is the reality.

I think planners should remind themselves that they work for the people. Politicians in their zeal for development and economic growth usually forget the laws of orderly development - planners know and should make sure politicians and developers do not forget what orderly development is all about and why it is a matter of law which is because we live in a democracy..

[vaughan]

I think planners should remind themselves that they work for the people. Politicians in their zeal for development and economic growth usually forget the laws of orderly development - planners know and should make sure politicians and developers do not forget what orderly development is all about and why it is a matter of law which is because we live in a democracy..

GIven Bud's comment, let me clarify. We ALL work for the people- politicians and planners alike. The trick for us is to find the thin line between populism (and NIMBYISM), politics, and professional judgement.

[jaws]

GIven Bud's comment, let me clarify. We ALL work for the people- politicians and planners alike. The trick for us is to find the thin line between populism (and NIMBYISM), politics, and professional judgement.

If both planners and politicians work for the people, how come they see things differently? Clearly one works more for the people than the other.

[nrschmid]

heartland, if you are really disappointed with the planning profession, i suggest you buy a couple of thousand undeveloped unincorporated acres, incorporate it, create your rules granted by your state, develop it, and show us what you have done...

Seriously though, you need to calm down, bro. I know you are very passionate about your beliefs (most of us are) but I think tact will help you out in more ways than one (I think are more understanding on this informal blog, but the general public would write you off as a planner).

I think I am a very outspoken person on this forum, but I try to not to come across as a know it all. And if anyone thinks I am, please tell me and I will tone down my comments. Listen to what people have to say. No one has the answers to everything, but you will exponentially get there one day with patience.

[cch]

If both planners and politicians work for the people, how come they see things differently? Clearly one works more for the people than the other.

Are you forgetting that some of "the people" see things different than others. Your statement makes it sound as though all of "the people" want the same things. I may be a pessimist at times, but I'm afraid that most of the politicians work for "the people" with money and influence. I prefer to work for "the people" who care about the environment and consider themselves to be stewards of the land. But, currently I am getting paid to review subdivisions for conformity with ordinances adopted by the elected officials, and write comp plan elements (involving a lot of public input) that the elected officials will vote on whether to adopt.

But to get back on track...Each seperate suburban jurisdiction understandably wants to grow, attract taxpayers and tax-generating uses (stores and industries, etc). There is no way to convince them to stop doing this, in hopes that it will force more people to live in the city.

[jaws]

Are you forgetting that some of "the people" see things different than others. Your statement makes it sound as though all of "the people" want the same things. I may be a pessimist at times, but I'm afraid that most of the politicians work for "the people" with money and influence. I prefer to work for "the people" who care about the environment and consider themselves to be stewards of the land.

If "the people" cannot even agree on what they want done, it makes no sense to even speak of "the people" at all. Elected politicians will just be individuals selected out of this group of squabbling "people" with their own individual idea of what the city ought to do for them.

[Flying Monkeys]

Hey HeartlandCity Boy:

If you want to change the world, stop trying to convince planners and go convince the populace. Add Saul Alinsky and Kromholtz to your list. A lot of what you have listed comes from the design perspective.

If you want to be radical, you need to infiltrate the system, man. Stick it to the man, man! Overthrow the capitalist pig machine....

Oh, where was I? Oh yeah, are you for real? I think you may be playing the people on this Forum...that is my guess.

[Gedunker]

WARNING -- this thread is headed in the same direction as the sprawl thread. Let's stay with the topic -- perceptions of the city -- and not of each other. Get it? Carry on.

[HeartlandCityBoy]

I'm for real so far as much as I don't like post 1950's suburbs. I like suburbs before the 1950s, because they were dense and urban, and most things were within walking distance. They had mass transit (streetcars, buses, etc...) more than automobiles at most times.

However since the 50's, things have gotten significantly worse. I don't ever want to be a politician, I hate politicians and politics. I want to form Kansas City into the way that it needs to go. Most people I know want/need certain things, and all of those needs can be satisfied by the old way of planning, not any new age way of planning.

I'm not much of a fan of New Urbanism, moreso of Authentic Urbanism.

What I meant my the rap statement, was I know how those neighborhoods are at the moment, people living in fear, poor education, gang violence, drugs, etc... With mostly black people and very little diversity (literal and urban). There is racism from Whites to Blacks and Blacks to Whites. Rap singers sing about what they know, and their life/lives. I've read interviews with these singers about their childhoods and just growing up living in these areas.

Some on here have said cities have problems or are worse compared to suburbs, yet this just isn't true. The situations cities are currently in are bad compared to suburbs, but the natural, traditional way cities and urban areas are like, is 10 million times better on all fronts than suburbs.

I could go on and on about suburbs (when I say suburbs, I mean the post 50s suburbs, not before WWII) but I'll save some space.

Heck, pre-1950s suburbs even destroyed their own little mini urban areas that were forming. These areas have become smaller versions of what many bigger American cities have become. This is where I can see conditions in urban areas. I live in a suburb, it is pretty old, and has a dense core, however that core has been dead and decaying for a very long time, and it is in the same situation as most of the urban core of the big city. The same thing is happening here, things are STILL being decentralized and it isn't getting any better despite improvements that are trying to be made.

I cannot and will not open myself to any other viewpoint, unless they are for those things I listed above, if those people and their books or styles/theories are against those I listed above, I will have to fight them, never accept them.

Also, Kansas City has had the potential to boom and become a world class city for decades, but the population here has a very negative and pessimistic mindset, they vote down a lot of good things, and City Hall generally has an attitude of "we can't accomplish that, we're Kansas City, let's scale it down" or "Anything is better than nothing, so let's build crap instead of waiting for something better"..
The only part of our town that has gotten better is our Downtown and the Plaza areas. Those are the only places that positive mindsets exist, and even then, people have doubts their improvements will continue, and half-assed jobs are continuing to be done in these areas.

I care about people and the city, however, while I believe people know what they want and need in their cores, they usually express them in the wrong way. For example:
-People want open space, so they say they want large parks or large yards, because that is mostly all they know. However that want/need can best be satisfied with public parks, maybe 1-2 large ones, and a bunch of smaller ones.
-People want good transportation, they want to get from point A to point B fast, so they want expansion of highways, new bridges built, parking lots/garages etc... However this need/want is best satisfied by instead contracting highways, building a couple avenues, making streets very small (pedestrian oriented) and building plenty of effective mass transit.
-People want parking for their cars, but this want can only be satisfied by eliminating the need for personal automobiles and encouraging them to instead use mass transit.
-People want convenient shopping, but instead of building big box retail centers where you drive to, have several small businesses within walking distance to their homes, that require the same need without cars and without as much space, and owned by locals who care about the community.

Plenty could be said, but I don't want to really take anymore time at the moment.

But back to perceptions of the city, I cannot know everything as people can only live in one place at a time, but I know from what I've read in things like Jane Jacobs and have observed through people/sources in those areas.

[nrschmid]

I cannot and will not open myself to any other viewpoint, unless they are for those things I listed above, if those people and their books or styles/theories are against those I listed above, I will have to fight them, never accept them.

.

hmmm. i second flying_monkeys comment.

[jaws]

I cannot and will not open myself to any other viewpoint, unless they are for those things I listed above, if those people and their books or styles/theories are against those I listed above, I will have to fight them, never accept them.

If you are not open to other viewpoints, how do you know your own viewpoint is correct?

[HeartlandCityBoy]

Because, my viewpoint has been right since people started gathering in cities. It's especially been right since the days of Greece and Rome, and then again during the Renaissance. All the other viewpoints are new and are false, and go against everything before WWII. Just questioning my view is enough for me to ignore someone, because it's just common sense that it's how great, vibrant, and urban cities were before WWII.

Also, if Kansas City doesn't change and if I can't change anything in a big way here, I'm leaving for Europe, and will probably do the same thing as Jane Jacobs, and write to point out the big mistakes being made and the ignorance of the people in the area. I cannot live in a place that doesn't change for the better and doesn't change in the way I want it to. Many European cities are already like cities need to be, so if idiots here shut me out and prevent me from making any changes, I'll leave, and it'll be their fault they are killing the city.

[Linda_D]

Because, my viewpoint has been right since people started gathering in cities. It's especially been right since the days of Greece and Rome, and then again during the Renaissance. All the other viewpoints are new and are false, and go against everything before WWII. Just questioning my view is enough for me to ignore someone, because it's just common sense that it's how great, vibrant, and urban cities were before WWII.

Also, if Kansas City doesn't change and if I can't change anything in a big way here, I'm leaving for Europe, and will probably do the same thing as Jane Jacobs, and write to point out the big mistakes being made and the ignorance of the people in the area. I cannot live in a place that doesn't change for the better and doesn't change in the way I want it to. Many European cities are already like cities need to be, so if idiots here shut me out and prevent me from making any changes, I'll leave, and it'll be their fault they are killing the city.

oi vay!

[btrage]

Because, my viewpoint has been right since people started gathering in cities. It's especially been right since the days of Greece and Rome, and then again during the Renaissance. All the other viewpoints are new and are false, and go against everything before WWII. Just questioning my view is enough for me to ignore someone, because it's just common sense that it's how great, vibrant, and urban cities were before WWII.

Also, if Kansas City doesn't change and if I can't change anything in a big way here, I'm leaving for Europe, and will probably do the same thing as Jane Jacobs, and write to point out the big mistakes being made and the ignorance of the people in the area. I cannot live in a place that doesn't change for the better and doesn't change in the way I want it to. Many European cities are already like cities need to be, so if idiots here shut me out and prevent me from making any changes, I'll leave, and it'll be their fault they are killing the city.

Wow.

I've been silent so far reading these disgusting posts perpetrated by HeartlandCityBoy, but I can't stand it anymore.

I've had my disagreements with Jaws, but at least Jaws has a better understanding of what "city planning" entails, than the self-righteous venom spewed forth by the "Boy".

I shudder to think that a person like the "Boy", may be applying for a position as a Planner 8 years from now (or however old you are). If you really think you can tell people what's best for them, I strongly suggest you consider a career outside of the planning profession. As a matter of fact, I suggest you consider a career that has nothing to do with the public. If the "public" read some of the things you write in this forum, you would pushed to the side and discarded as a fool.

No matter what you think is best for people (even if it is right), you must learn how to educate, influence, and inspire. Everything that comes out of you in this forum is the opposite. If you really think that your self-rightous attitude will inspire people to change, I fear for your sanity if you decide to pursue a career as a professional planner.

As I said.........Wow.

[HeartlandCityBoy]

People know what they want down inside as I said, however they don't know how it needs to be implemented.

Examples:
People SAY they want wider/bigger highways and more parking, but they don't need that, what they need is less parking, less highways, mass transit, and things put within walking distance.

People SAY they want big parks, big yards, wider streets, big plazas, etc... but they don't need that, they need smaller public parks in dense settlements with a couple larger parks, as well as smaller plazas at high pedestrian traffic areas.

People SAY they want cheaper housing, but they don't need housing on the outskirts of town as sprawl that is cheap, what they need is more affordable housing built in the city, as well as improved neighborhoods where foreclosed and for sale houses can be bought without the worry of a dangerous neighborhood.

Also, as I said, if Kansas City cannot become more like the great cities of the world, and cannot become a mini-version of great places/true cities like Manhattan/Brooklyn, Barcelona, Curitiba, Copenhagen, Zurich, parts of Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Vancouver, Toronto and Portland, in 100 years from now. Then I would leave for Europe, because those are true cities. They constantly beat out American cities in quality of life, and a couple of their countries even can beat us on the democracy grade as well.

Unfortunately because we are only 200 years old, many of our cities that started in the 1800s were built/planned horribly because of the poor planning in the 20th century. Their inner cores are the best examples those cities have, and many cities are still demolishing those areas and replacing them with equally poor planning and construction.

I'm not for dictatorships, communism or facism. I'm for the community and city, not myself or any individual person. The good of the community comes first, and I'm also hoping to effect the people and government in Kansas City in the same way Jane Jacobs influenced the United States and changed cities, even though she wasn't even a planner or architect.

But if Kansas City cannot accomplish what I'd like to see it accomplish, then I'd have to leave for Europe. I would not be able to live in a city, and it would make me sick to live in a city that cannot appreciate itself and doesn't care about it's potential or it's urban area.

Right now the people of Kansas City could care less, they only care about their lives, their immediate community, and things that directly effect them. They couldn't care less about other districts/neighborhoods and couldn't care about things that could improve the city unless it effects them. I of course would never say that, but everyone I know that is interested in area development say the same thing. The people of Kansas City do not love Kansas City, and don't care about it's potential. The city has an attitude that either "we cannot do this because we are Kansas City, we are too small, we have to scale it down or drop it"... or "let's build this even though it's crappy, because anything is always better than nothing"

But again, I would not be able to "love" a city that cannot love itself. And I couldn't help a city that doesn't love or care about itself.

While the things I listed above aren't the only methods, I know there are other ways, however those ways that work HAVE to point back directly to "Authentic Urbanism", anti-sprawl and pro-pedestrian/pro-mass transit to be correct.

Many people don't think outside the box enough. People will say they need something, when they don't need it specifically, they need it implemented in a different way. Just as I said in the beginning of this post.
I value the opinions and thoughts of people, I believe they know what their communities need, however they don't always know the correct way to implement them. Which is a mindset of the people, they care about their community and want it to improve, but don't really know how to do it properly.

[Suburb Repairman]

Suburb Repairman Watch the personal attacks folks... attack ideas, not posters. Cyburbia Forums Rules & Guidelines Please review rule 2.10 regarding heated discussion. For that matter, go ahead and give another read of 2.15 regarding trolling.

[Rumpy Tunanator]

But if Kansas City cannot accomplish what I'd like to see it accomplish, then I'd have to leave for Europe. I would not be able to live in a city, and it would make me sick to live in a city that cannot appreciate itself and doesn't care about it's potential or it's urban area.

My first question to you is, do you live in the K.C. limits? My other comment to you is how many places have you worked at before, or more appropriately, "are still working for"?

Second. Are you running for mayor somewhere elae??

[HeartlandCityBoy]

My first question to you is, do you live in the K.C. limits? My other comment to you is how many places have you worked at before, or more appropriately, "are still working for"?

Second. Are you running for mayor somewhere elae??

I don't live in the city limits, I've had one job, it was in the urban core as well. I'm almost 19 years old, I haven't been in college yet, so no i'm not running for mayor anywhere. I hate politics.